skyjumpenfool 2 #151 August 30, 2013 mx_maniac Compare that to something like gymnastics, which I also do. Any idea how long, and how much training it took to get into a handstand on gymnastics rings? Years and tons of conditioning, and thats a relatively basic move on the rings. Doing a standing backflip on the ground, a basic move, is waaaay more difficult than any basic skydiving move. These basic things take months/years/decades to learn, rather than mere seconds in skydiving. OK! Now I've got you. I was once a gymnast. In fact, I was a national champion before you were born. You are correct, it takes years to develope the skills to do gymnastics. Skydiving is no different. In fact, skydiving is probly more involved because (as stated above) there's no spotters catching your sorry ass. Let me ask you this.... On your first day in the gym, after learning forward rolls, did you leave for three weeks and return to do forward saltos? As an AFF student, you've only learned forward rolls. You are not ready for Full in-Doubles yet. Stop talking stupid and put the time in to learn the sport or get off the High Bar. Judging from your attitude, you're probly not any better at gymnastics than you'll ever be in skydiving. Loose the attitude and you have a chance. I appologize if this sounds contrite or short. But, for God's sake, read what you have posted. Edited to add; Oh ! And by the way... You, my friend, are the lowest common denominator! That's not a put down or personal attack, just a fact based on your attitude. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joelgibson 0 #152 August 30, 2013 TROLL!!!SCR 15113 USPA Coach-C Hellfish 1004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #153 August 30, 2013 I have been known to "Troll" from time to time... Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trafficdiver 8 #154 August 30, 2013 joelgibsonTROLL!!! But, but , but...he swore he wasn't a Troll..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #155 August 30, 2013 Trafficdiver ***TROLL!!! But, but , but...he swore he wasn't a Troll..... I've come to believe he has to be a troll. At first I thought it was misguided arrogance, but it simply can't be possible to be 'that' stupid/retarded/stubborn.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joelgibson 0 #156 August 30, 2013 hey, i'm just a 15 jump ninja, but, he's a trollSCR 15113 USPA Coach-C Hellfish 1004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joelgibson 0 #157 August 30, 2013 also i used his example when discussing an Army Times article earlier today. My contention was, " Soldiers with less than 18 months in the army have about as much business discussing our problems as a jumper with 15 jumps in 5 years. All the privates looked at me blankly.SCR 15113 USPA Coach-C Hellfish 1004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #158 August 30, 2013 mx_maniacWell, I'm curious now. I'm assuming many of you have trained lots of people. What have you witnessed of the "average" person who is not current? Have you seen people who loose the ability to pull at the correct altitude? Have you witnessed people who are unable to check their exit seperation? Who loose the ability to stabilize themselves and have a stable pull? Does the "average" person actually struggle with those things? Those were some examples billvon gave, but they absolutely do not apply to me in relation to solo vs coach jump. I am well aware of altitude, there is no way I'm going to forget to pull at correct altitude, just because nobody is watching. I follow exit separation procedures, why wouldn't I? I like my space. I was able to maintain stability and have a stable pull since my very first jump ever in my life, not going to suddenly loose ability after a few months. Once when I had about 2 years off, I was quizzed on malfunctions and hand signals, and I spouted the answers off as quick, or possibly even quicker than the day I learned years ago, its fresh in my head. Not saying I have mad skills, but I still don't understand the consensus that acts like I'm just some disaster if I take a few months off, or am not babied by a coach, unless your just basing it on the fact that maybe the "average" person is. Which is why I have pretty much come to understand and accept the fact these rules I'm forced to follow, are indeed based on the least common denominator. Which is why I'm just sort of curious how bad the least common denominator is. Afterall, many average people are hardly even capable of driving a car. I've never had a wreck, even when I was young and crazy and would hit 120mph+ on pretty much a daily basis (not like this anymore, rarely even exceed the speed limit by more than 10mph tops). Other people driving the same length of time as me or less, have had 5 accidents. Some people drive their cars straight into stores, or flip them on their roofs just trying to pull into a parking spot. Are these same people up in the air with us? wise words spoken from the 15 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #159 August 30, 2013 Trafficdiver ***TROLL!!! But, but , but...he swore he wasn't a Troll..... Doesn't matter... I told them not to feed the Troll... but I think they are just feeding their own desire to see their shiz on the interwebz.... "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx_maniac 0 #160 August 30, 2013 Well, I will try to wind this thread down, pretty much everything has been covered. I did learn a lot. I learned the answer to my questions is simply the obvious, everyone has to play by the rules of the least common denominator, similar to many things in life. While I may have great judgement of my abilities, and can make decisions on my own, others aren't capable, and need to be told. I learned a lot about the mentality of the long time skydiver. I was shocked at first, I totally expected everyone to agree with me, and basically say "Yeah, there's a lot of dumb rules, but if you are comfortable with your abilities, here are tips to get around them". A lot of people put words in my mouth though. Saying I think I have mad skills, or am better than everyone else, or a sky god. This is not the case at all, in fact its far from the truth. I know I am new, I know I have much to still learn, there are many who are better than me. All I'm saying is despite being a beginner, I know I am fully capable of carrying a camera, and no longer need my hand held by a coach. That's it. In fact, if there existed a test, to examine a person's brain, and actually determine a person's competence with a helmet cam, I guarantee I would pass that test. Also, I have gone over a year, and then did a solo jump. They were going to make me use a coach, but through some error or something, they ended up booking me solo. I didn't correct them because I was happy, and everything about my jump turned out fine. Just as good as if a coach was there, so I pretty much proved my point, I didn't need one. And no, it wasn't just luck, I followed all gear checks, exit procedures, stable pull at correct altitude, paid attention where I was going, followed landing pattern, etc. Its easy to assume all sorts of things about me, being a stranger, but I guarantee if you saw the level of safety I take with almost every potentially dangerous thing I do, you would think differently. I'm known for taking all the safety steps that most people skip, double checking things most don't, wearing the safety gear that most call uncomfortable, thinking ahead at the multiple possible outcomes of things, and not falling into patterns of complacency. Unfortunately since the DZ, cannot see into people's heads to see their true ability, they just have to follow the broad blanket rules. After seeing and reading so many of the unbelievably dumb things general people do, I realize why the rules are where they are. So even though it sucks I have to deal with some of them, I've come to accept them. I'm going to continue to skydive, but just going to adjust my frequency a little bit, to better fit in with what everyone expects. Rather than my ideal of jump every few months, I'll more likely just pack in little groups of jumps, spaced further apart, like each summer, so I can hopefully just do like 1 coach jump, then 2-3 solos. (Unless I start earning more money, then I'd go more). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #161 August 30, 2013 QuoteI learned the answer to my questions is simply the obvious, everyone has to play by the rules of the least common denominator, similar to many things in life. While I may have great judgement of my abilities, and can make decisions on my own, others aren't capable, and need to be told..... I know I am fully capable of carrying a camera, and no longer need my hand held by a coach.... This is the third time I have asked this.... You keep ignoring it. What makes you think you are so special that the things that have killed people better and more skilled than you can't kill you ? Seriously, you think a single person who died in an an accident thought the thing they did would kill them?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #162 August 30, 2013 mx_maniac I learned a lot about the mentality of the long time skydiver. I was shocked at first, I totally expected everyone to agree with me, and basically say "Yeah, there's a lot of dumb rules, but if you are comfortable with your abilities, here are tips to get around them". Exact opposite. The longer I spend in this sport, and the more skill and experience I develop, the more I respect the rules that exist and understand why they're there. Stick around long enough and respect the people who came before you enough and you just might come around to that, too. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrDom 0 #163 August 30, 2013 OK, I may only have 2 tandems under my belt but I want to say 2 things. 1) I knew the answer to all these questions and I'm barely even a student (my AFF isnt even for 2 weeks). i read the SIM. Seriously. When I race cars I don't take a winter off jump back in and try to lap the place... I have to do some slow laps, warm the car, etc. We all want to be able to "show and go" but this is a dangerous sport and if you kill yourself its one more time someone can say "see... people are dying doing this!" and my wife gives me that look of "you're not jumping out of a plane" 2) why is this thread even still open. It is pointless. I may be new, but still this post was fairly absurd. Maybe you're NOT a troll, but if you want to partake in a sport (this IS a sport) you should follow the rules of the DZ. If you dont like them, go charter a cessna from your local airport and jump from it. Nobody will ask you any questions.You are not the contents of your wallet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx_maniac 0 #164 August 30, 2013 Ron: Not trying to ignore your question, I just thought I had pretty much addressed it previously. I'm not saying things that have killed others can't kill me. Unexpected things can potentially kill anybody at all, even the most skilled alive. I'm just saying, I don't need constant re-doing of coach jumps just because its been a few months, that's all. I do say though that many of the mistakes that happened to the people were calling least common denominator would not happen to me. No matter how long its been since a jump, I won't suddenly forget how to do a stable arch, I won't be so confused by figuring out how to use a simple 2 button video camera that I forget gear checks, I won't get distracted filming something and loose track of where I am, I won't suddenly loose the ability to be altitude aware, or be unable to detect something is wrong if my altimeter reads 10,500 the entire jump, I won't suddenly forget how to exit the plane in proper spacing, I won't forget how to get into proper holding position and land, etc, etc, etc. People are putting words in my mouth, implying I'm some guy who feels invincible and perfect, and nothing can happen to me, but that is not the case. I'm simply saying I'm a level headed guy, who retains knowledge well, and just because I may go a little while without a jump, does not mean I need to be bumped back, or babied along by a coach, to have a safe jump. That's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #165 August 31, 2013 QuotePeople are putting words in my mouth, implying I'm some guy who feels invincible and perfect, and nothing can happen to me, but that is not the case. The only person putting words into your mouth is you. 'I do say though that many of the mistakes that happened to the people were calling least common denominator would not happen to me. No matter how long its been since a jump, I won't suddenly forget how to do a stable arch, I won't be so confused by figuring out how to use a simple 2 button video camera that I forget gear checks, I won't get distracted filming something and loose track of where I am, I won't suddenly loose the ability to be altitude aware, or be unable to detect something is wrong if my altimeter reads 10,500 the entire jump' So again I ask.... What makes you so special that mistakes that have killed others that thought they too would not screw up somehow can't happen to you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #166 August 31, 2013 You may be right about most, if not all, of what you claim. You may never lose altitude awareness and forget where you are (even though its happened to people with 1000s of jumps). You might never get confused by a two button camera and forget gear checks (even though its happened to people with 1000s of jumps). You might always notice a problem with your altimeter. Do you really think thats the only way to die? Lets say you get out on a solo and your altimeter takes a shit - what are you going to do? Can you eyeball what 3500' looks like with 15 jumps over however many years you've been jumping? Lets say everything is working fine - how do you know you are falling down the tube and not backsliding all over the sky, potentially putting you directly on top of any number of groups that left before or after you? Thats just 2 very real possibilities out of a damn near endless list of potential issues. I personally do not agree with all the rules we have, but they are there for a reason - and YOU are one of those reasons! If you got a seperate pass on every jump with noone else in the sky I suspect the majority here could care less if it had been 2 years since your last jump because you are right - odds are great that you're going to pull and be just fine. The problem comes with the fact that you are sharing the sky with others, and odds are decent that you are gonna fuck up and take out or injure me or one of my friends! Read the Incident Reports sometimes- they are chock FULL of people with hundreds and thousands of jumps who are DEAD...but yeah, you are better, and more altitude aware, and less distractable, and safer than all those dead folks. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #167 August 31, 2013 Oops, there you go, making sense. Don't you know, the OP is not interested in that. The only thing he's interested in is someone (preferably low jump numbers) to agree with his POV. That way he can feel justified when he puts not only himself in danger, but other folks, as well. lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #168 August 31, 2013 QuotePeople are putting words in my mouth, implying I'm some guy who feels invincible and perfect, and nothing can happen to me, but that is not the case. I'm simply saying I'm a level headed guy, who retains knowledge well, and just because I may go a little while without a jump, does not mean I need to be bumped back, or babied along by a coach, to have a safe jump. That's all. Well in all my 38 years in jumping I've never heard anyone say anything like that before!!!!!. You . Are . A . Tedious . Bore. Give it up mate, FFS!.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #169 August 31, 2013 Why don't you just get a B license? With a B license you only need a jump once every 6 months to stay current. If you're so smart it should not be hard to get your B, all you need is 35 more jumps that's nothing. You could do that in 2 weekends and be done with it. Then you won't have to argue with people about currency requirements. And hopefully it will be humbling and you'll see why your position on camera flying is foolish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #170 August 31, 2013 chemist Why don't you just get a B license? With a B license you only need a jump once every 6 months to stay current. If you're so smart it should not be hard to get your B, all you need is 35 more jumps that's nothing. You could do that in 2 weekends and be done with it. Then you won't have to argue with people about currency requirements. And hopefully it will be humbling and you'll see why your position on camera flying is foolish DUUUUUDE how can anyone be cool anymore without their own youtube channel to bore the fuck out of people with craptastic works of shite.look at me... LOOK at ME LOOK AT ME getting it yet??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #171 August 31, 2013 Wait you mean to tell me you don't want to hear some loud ass wind over some low ass quality footage of the horizon??! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #172 August 31, 2013 chemistass wind... Summarizes this thread, really."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #173 August 31, 2013 DocPop ***ass wind... Summarizes this thread, really. Purdy much. lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #174 September 1, 2013 chemistWait you mean to tell me you don't want to hear some loud ass wind over some low ass quality footage of the horizon??! What do you mean low ass quality? Shakey and half the time unlevel? Sure. Five minutes of continuous rolling? Naturally. But we're talking about GoPros, that shit is 1080P! That's right... One thousand eighty pees. And wind noise? Nah, I just heard this sweet song by Drowning Pool that I'm totally gonna use for my next solo video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #175 September 1, 2013 Ya I guess the HD would be good, but yea, he can't film anything worthy with 15 jumps other than a shaky horizon with maybe a couple of crappy ass clouds. How is this guy even logistically thinking about doing this I don't know. If you're an uncurrent AFF you have to do a coach jump at any respectable decent quality DZ. I've only been around a limited sample of 3 DZs but I just can't see any way in hell they'd let a student jump a camera anywhere because at the 3 I've been at that's been the culture. No camera for low experience jumpers!! EDIT: DZ'S WON'T EVEN LET STUDENTS JUMP IN THEIR NORMAL CLOTHES (STUDENT SUIT USUALLY REQUIRED EVERYWHERE), NO FANCY HELMETS OR GOGGLES, ETC... let alone a camera Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
