What's with these USPA rules? Are they really necessary?

[mx_maniac 0]

Well, I appreciate the input, even from those who disagree. I'm really glad at least one person can see my point (or is willing to admit it). I realize now this is a pretty hardcore jumpers forum, with most people having 1000-4000 jumps. I'd imagine if there were more casual jumpers on here with 100 or so jumps, more may agree.

I still do not see how being forced to do a coach jump, vs solo jump makes me any more likely to be a "statistic". Its the same exact thing, except one has a guy next to you forcing you to to his routine, and one you can do your own routine. Still going to do a safe jump either way. Still going to do all gear checks, have a stable pull at a safe altitude, etc.

It is interesting how many people in this thread have called skydiving a "high skill" sport. I do not think of skydiving as a "high skill" sport. I think of it as a "critical thinking, sharp mindedness, awareness, and smart decision making" sport. Actual skill, very little. I had a stable falling arch going within about 15 seconds of my first skydive ever. In AFF, theres 7 total minutes of freefall, and I learned all the 360's, flips, rolls, tracking with time to spare, most took about 15 seconds to learn. Compare that to something like gymnastics, which I also do. Any idea how long, and how much training it took to get into a handstand on gymnastics rings? Years and tons of conditioning, and thats a relatively basic move on the rings. Doing a standing backflip on the ground, a basic move, is waaaay more difficult than any basic skydiving move. These basic things take months/years/decades to learn, rather than mere seconds in skydiving. So as far as the basic skydiving moves, theres not much "skill" to be lost. Sure, you'll be slightly sloppier, but not to any point of a safety concern, at least not on an ordinary solo jump, where your not doing anything but basic maneuvers. Does anyone agree with this?

Now what about that "oh-s" moment nobody wants to happen when you realize your canopy did not deploy correctly, and its a twisted up mess. I think when somebody is presented with this the first time, its not going to matter much if they have jumped 15 days ago, or 6 months ago. Its going to be a brand new, and scary situation, and require "critical thinking", and "ability to react in a stressful situation", rather than "skill", or "currency". Those are things that are much more programmed in one's brain, and do not change very drastically just because its been over 30 days.

Also I'll add, my lack of numbers in skydiving, is not due to lack of interest, rather simply its a 100+ mile drive to the dropzone. I work full time and have lots of other responsibilities. Recently I have been very eager to go all summer, but knowing I'll be slapped with renewing USPA membership, coach jumps, and their added cost, and probably looked down upon for not being "current", etc, I haven't wanted to deal with that. If it really was a short drive and $23 jump, like for some people, I would indeed go waaay more often.

Also, I do have a respect for the danger of the sport, even the very best can have something happen to them through no fault of their own, and the more you jump, the more chances it can happen. I don't find the need to rack up 5000+ jumps, If I just do maybe 250 solo jumps, spread out through my whole life, I'd be happy. Is that really such a bad thing, or looked down upon?

[billvon 2,380]

>I still do not see how being forced to do a coach jump, vs solo jump makes me any
>more likely to be a "statistic."

You are less likely to forget to pull if there is someone in your face reminding you to do that.

You are less likely to have a major problem (stability on exit, stability during pull time, failure to fly a pattern, landing problems) that goes unnoticed and unfixed.

You are less likely to collide with another group if you have a coach there checking your exit separation and keeping you from drifting into another airspace.

You are less likely to land out if you have a coach to check the spot - and thus less likely to be injured upon landing.

Do you want any other examples?

>It is interesting how many people in this thread have called skydiving a "high skill"
>sport. I do not think of skydiving as a "high skill" sport.

That explains your attitude.

> I think of it as a "critical thinking, sharp mindedness, awareness, and smart decision
>making" sport. Actual skill, very little.

Many people think this at the beginning of their skydiving careers. It's the 100 jump wonder effect.

>Now what about that "oh-s" moment nobody wants to happen when you realize your
>canopy did not deploy correctly, and its a twisted up mess. I think when somebody is
>presented with this the first time, its not going to matter much if they have jumped 15
>days ago, or 6 months ago.

Historically just not true. Currency makes you more capable of dealing with problems. Your awareness expands, your ability to process information goes up and your ability to rapidly recognize and react to problems goes up.

>Also, I do have a respect for the danger of the sport

No, you don't. You think that all the people talking about the danger are making stuff up, that it's not that dangerous for YOU, that you don't need that much skill etc. Most people learn how wrong that is with time. If you stick with the sport you'll get to a point where you will think "boy was I clueless!" It happens to most of us.

>Also I'll add, my lack of numbers in skydiving, is not due to lack of interest, rather
>simply its a 100+ mile drive to the dropzone. I work full time and have lots of other
>responsibilities.

We all do. For me it's a 70 mile drive and I work full time (and now have a 2 year old.) You do it if you want to. If not, that's OK too.

>Recently I have been very eager to go all summer, but knowing I'll be slapped with
>renewing USPA membership, coach jumps, and their added cost, and probably looked
>down upon for not being "current", etc, I haven't wanted to deal with that.

That's also OK. Skydiving is not for everyone, and if you don't want to do it there are plenty of other sports out there.

[diablopilot 2]

grimmie

There aren't enough trees to publish a 'Skydiver Down" book.

It exists already. It's called the "fatality reports."

Some days I feel like I'm the only one who reads them. When I started skydiving 15 years ago, I sat down and read all that I could get my hands on. Similarly when I started taking flying lessons I read NTSB reports on airplane crashes. My flight instructor asked "Why?"

"So I know how not to end up like them."

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Think of that coach jump as an evaluation as to whether the DZO wants to risk his entire ass letting you jump there.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[3mpire 0]

mx_maniac

I don't find the need to rack up 5000+ jumps, If I just do maybe 250 solo jumps, spread out through my whole life, I'd be happy. Is that really such a bad thing, or looked down upon?

People aren't looking down on you for your modest ambitions in the sport as far as jump numbers go. It's your attitude.

I do agree with you on this point:

Quote

I think of it as a "critical thinking, sharp mindedness, awareness, and smart decision making" sport.

And on all of those measures based on your posts I'd say your skill level leaves much to be desired.

BTW: I have to drive 100 miles each way in shitty traffic and I have a toddler, so don't make excuses. Either you want to jump or you don't. If you don't that's fine, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you jump as rarely as you say you plan to, then you should accept the consequences of that decision which is you won't be treated like a current jumper.

If you don't like it, then save yourself the trouble and swing on your monkey bars at home or make the drive, jump, and stay current.

[oldwomanc6 38]

mx_maniac

I realize now this is a pretty hardcore jumpers forum, with most people having 1000-4000 jumps. I'd imagine if there were more casual jumpers on here with 100 or so jumps, more may agree

Finding even more numbers of ignorant people to agree with you doesn't make you any less mistaken in your view/opinion.

Do you not realize that you have just enough exposure (I hesitate to call it experience) to think that since you know more than the gen pop, you know enough to know anything at all?

That is a really dangerous place to be.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[voilsb 1]

mx_maniac

Also I'll add, my lack of numbers in skydiving, is not due to lack of interest, rather simply its a 100+ mile drive to the dropzone. I work full time and have lots of other responsibilities.

This is where I'll jump in. I had a 240 mile drive to the DZ. I made over 200 jumps last year.

As for your comments about the coach ... nothing prevents you from talking to the coach and asking about just doing a 2-way with you, or giving the coach your plan for the jump and asking him to observe and debrief you on it after the jump.

Brian

[nigel99 143]

Nothing wrong with 250 solo jumps over your life.

Stop having preselected views on who posts in the forum, you are showing your ignorance. Many many posters have only just started AFF or are low time jumpers, probably more than the guys with 1000+ jumps.

What is shocking is your absolute arrogance that with 15 jumps you refuse outright to see that other people know more than you

Whoopee, you managed to fall stable on your AFF, you are a true skygod. That statement alone shows just how little you know...

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Well, I appreciate the input, even from those who disagree. I'm really glad at least one person can see my point (or is willing to admit it). I realize now this is a pretty hardcore jumpers forum, with most people having 1000-4000 jumps. I'd imagine if there were more casual jumpers on here with 100 or so jumps, more may agree.

They may agree.... But that does not make their opinion correct. Simply put, fatalities are not voted on. So no matter how many 100 jump people you get to agree with you.... You are still not safe.

You are looking for people to agree with you while ignoring all the exp people telling you that you are wrong.

Quote

I still do not see how being forced to do a coach jump, vs solo jump makes me any more likely to be a "statistic". Its the same exact thing, except one has a guy next to you forcing you to to his routine, and one you can do your own routine. Still going to do a safe jump either way. Still going to do all gear checks, have a stable pull at a safe altitude, etc.

People claim they will do the gear checks.... Yet we still have people with more jumps than you making stupid mistakes.

Quote

It is interesting how many people in this thread have called skydiving a "high skill" sport. I do not think of skydiving as a "high skill" sport. I think of it as a "critical thinking, sharp mindedness, awareness, and smart decision making" sport. Actual skill, very little. I had a stable falling arch going within about 15 seconds of my first skydive ever. In AFF, theres 7 total minutes of freefall, and I learned all the 360's, flips, rolls, tracking with time to spare, most took about 15 seconds to learn. Compare that to something like gymnastics, which I also do. Any idea how long, and how much training it took to get into a handstand on gymnastics rings? Years and tons of conditioning, and thats a relatively basic move on the rings. Doing a standing backflip on the ground, a basic move, is waaaay more difficult than any basic skydiving move. These basic things take months/years/decades to learn, rather than mere seconds in skydiving. So as far as the basic skydiving moves, theres not much "skill" to be lost. Sure, you'll be slightly sloppier, but not to any point of a safety concern, at least not on an ordinary solo jump, where your not doing anything but basic maneuvers. Does anyone agree with this?

And then compare then compare the cost of a mistake.... I doubt very many gymnasts die each year.

Quote

Also I'll add, my lack of numbers in skydiving, is not due to lack of interest, rather simply its a 100+ mile drive to the dropzone. I work full time and have lots of other responsibilities. Recently I have been very eager to go all summer, but knowing I'll be slapped with renewing USPA membership, coach jumps, and their added cost, and probably looked down upon for not being "current", etc, I haven't wanted to deal with that. If it really was a short drive and $23 jump, like for some people, I would indeed go waaay more often.

I drive 90 miles to one DZ and fly 1300 miles to the other and i have still done 200+ jumps this year... i also work full time and have other hobbies. If you don't have time it is because you don't make the time.

Quote

Also, I do have a respect for the danger of the sport, even the very best can have something happen to them through no fault of their own, and the more you jump, the more chances it can happen.

You are ignoring all the accidents that are due to the fault of the jumper (most of them).

Look, fact is you don't know what you don't know and your posts prove it.

If I walked into a gym and claimed I could be good if I came in once a month for an hour... You would (rightfully) laugh at me.

And not having a bunch of jumps is not looked down on... Your attitude is what is looked down on.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[3mpire 0]

An I the only one that thinks Joey got a new sock?

[Arvoitus 1]

mx_maniac

Well, I appreciate the input, even from those who disagree. I'm really glad at least one person can see my point (or is willing to admit it). I realize now this is a pretty hardcore jumpers forum, with most people having 1000-4000 jumps. I'd imagine if there were more casual jumpers on here with 100 or so jumps, more may agree.

So you want the inexperienced and the clueless to run the show and make up the rules?

Like I said, get into BASE, no rules and you can do what ever the fuck you want. There are plenty of terminal walls out there and if you could get stable on your first skydive in 15 secs then surely you'll be able to do that off of a cliff. Do it, the BFL is waiting for you.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[unkulunkulu 0]

1. It's not freefall maneuvers and 360 turns that kill skydivers.
2. All you've been taught on AFF is falling with your belly down and not rotating too quickly. Go visit a wind tunnel and see how "stable" you really fall.

[DSE 3]

Quote

doing a coach jump basically does nothing for safety, and is counter-productive towards my learning.

Of course you're right. It's only the morons and idiots that can't determine their relative body position in the air. Some of em' even wear cameras so they can show their friends how bad their body position is, relative to the earth.

[Guru312 0]

mx_maniac

Not trying to sound cocky or anything, but even if its been 6-12 months, I know what I'm doing, I haven't forgotten anything. Whether its been 25 days, or 12 months, its no different.

So what's the deal?

The big deal is that you seem to be suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect. Here is a direct link so others can follow along as you read about yourself and your self-delusion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[mx_maniac 0]

Well, I'm curious now. I'm assuming many of you have trained lots of people. What have you witnessed of the "average" person who is not current?

Have you seen people who loose the ability to pull at the correct altitude? Have you witnessed people who are unable to check their exit seperation? Who loose the ability to stabilize themselves and have a stable pull? Does the "average" person actually struggle with those things?

Those were some examples billvon gave, but they absolutely do not apply to me in relation to solo vs coach jump. I am well aware of altitude, there is no way I'm going to forget to pull at correct altitude, just because nobody is watching. I follow exit separation procedures, why wouldn't I? I like my space. I was able to maintain stability and have a stable pull since my very first jump ever in my life, not going to suddenly loose ability after a few months. Once when I had about 2 years off, I was quizzed on malfunctions and hand signals, and I spouted the answers off as quick, or possibly even quicker than the day I learned years ago, its fresh in my head.

Not saying I have mad skills, but I still don't understand the consensus that acts like I'm just some disaster if I take a few months off, or am not babied by a coach, unless your just basing it on the fact that maybe the "average" person is. Which is why I have pretty much come to understand and accept the fact these rules I'm forced to follow, are indeed based on the least common denominator. Which is why I'm just sort of curious how bad the least common denominator is.

Afterall, many average people are hardly even capable of driving a car. I've never had a wreck, even when I was young and crazy and would hit 120mph+ on pretty much a daily basis (not like this anymore, rarely even exceed the speed limit by more than 10mph tops). Other people driving the same length of time as me or less, have had 5 accidents. Some people drive their cars straight into stores, or flip them on their roofs just trying to pull into a parking spot. Are these same people up in the air with us?

[DiverMike 5]

Somebody please make this stop.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[rehmwa 2]

I'll bite:

I would very much like to have the USPA membership (provided it keeps the Feds' noses out of our business - which I'm not sure if that's proven or not). But I'd gladly take a discounted membership rate and forego the magazine - which we get two of them and I don't read either copy. (or put it on-line and stop killing trees).

I'm not a fan of 'requiring' coaches or coach jumps. But I am a fan of requiring demonstration of minimal skills sets for the Licenses. But, an AFFI can sign off or it would nice if they could sign if a trusted up jumper non-coach can vouch for observing the skills. But I'm also biased against the rating itself, ditto on the PRO rating too for that matter.

I think cameras on newbies is stupid and out of control. Leave them on the ground and don't whine about it. Earn it with a few hundred jumps and being current.

Currency in the sport is very important - I'd prefer that 'tourists' that just jump a couple times a year or only at one boogie a year please quit this activity.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JeffCa 0]

mx_maniac

Which is why I'm just sort of curious how bad the least common denominator is.

Lowest common denominator:

A jumper whose jump numbers are so low as to not even qualify for a licence, despite being active for several years, but who has an arrogant skygod complex, overestimating his own skill while underestimating the skill of those who are much more experienced than himself. He believes that the established rules of safety do not apply to him and that he's much too skilled and clever to require them. He often boastfully posts his arrogance and ignorance openly online, and despite being educated by several reputable instructors, does not feel any shame, increase in humbleness, or any inclination to stop posting. He is the kind of jumper that others do not wish to be in the sky with, they will often remove themselves form loads just to make sure they are not in the air with such a dangerous individual. Most jumpers wish he would just quit skydiving completely, for their own safety and for the good of the community as a whole.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Have you seen people who loose the ability to pull at the correct altitude? Have you witnessed people who are unable to check their exit seperation? Who loose the ability to stabilize themselves and have a stable pull? Does the "average" person actually struggle with those things?

Yes.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[champu 1]

mx_maniac

Have you seen people who loose the ability to pull at the correct altitude? Have you witnessed people who are unable to check their exit seperation? Who loose the ability to stabilize themselves and have a stable pull? Does the "average" person actually struggle with those things?

Those were some examples billvon gave, but they absolutely do not apply to me...

Do you think it's a coincidence that of all the things that billvon listed you picked the three that are least likely (statistically speaking) to cause you or someone else serious injury or death?

[billvon 2,380]

>What have you witnessed of the "average" person who is not current?

Reversion to previous training. Loss of altitude awareness. Inability to get stable after exit. Target fixation. Forgetting details of emergency procedures. Forgetting how to fix minor problems (stuck brakes.) ZERO exit separation - one guy would have been on the heels of the previous 2-way if I hadn't stopped him. Gear problems - misrouted chest straps, altimeters not zeroed, flaps not closed, twists in leg straps. (This is often exacerbated because infrequent jumpers are often borrowing/renting.)

> Does the "average" person actually struggle with those things?

Probably 1 in 4 has a problem like the ones listed above. Maybe 1 in 3. Depends on how long they've been out and how current they were before.

>but they absolutely do not apply to me in relation to solo vs coach jump. I am
>well aware of altitude, there is no way I'm going to forget to pull at correct altitude

That's what everyone says - just before they end up 500 feet below pull altitude trying to finish that one turn.

>Which is why I have pretty much come to understand and accept the fact these
>rules I'm forced to follow, are indeed based on the least common denominator.

They are based on average skydiver skill levels.

You may have to accept that you are really not above average.

>Afterall, many average people are hardly even capable of driving a car. I've never had
>a wreck, even when I was young and crazy and would hit 120mph+ on pretty much a
>daily basis

That means you are hardly even capable of driving a car. Such lack of care will likely extend into your skydiving - which means you are even more likely to need the assistance of a coach. (Actually if you were at a DZ I was at I'd have you go up with an AFF/I - having someone able to dock and pull you out would be pretty important.)

>Are these same people up in the air with us?

No, most are pretty good. But a few are like you - which is why things like recurrency jumps are so important.

[Bignugget 0]

mx_maniac

Well, I'm curious now. I'm assuming many of you have trained lots of people. What have you witnessed of the "average" person who is not current?

Have you seen people who loose the ability to pull at the correct altitude? Have you witnessed people who are unable to check their exit seperation? Who loose the ability to stabilize themselves and have a stable pull? Does the "average" person actually struggle with those things?

Sure.

This guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3VisRC3X9U

"This was my Safety Day recertification sky dive (gotta love the irony). I hadn't jumped in a few months, so I needed an instructor to jump with me (you need to jump every 30 days up until you get 50 or more jumps). Unknown to me, my altimeter failed (it got stuck showing 10,500 feet), and I was not altitude aware (BIG mistake) as I was focussed between my instructor and a broken altimeter. My instructor also had an all black suit on and was wearing black gloves. So every time he pointed at me, all I saw was his elbow emanating from his silhoutte. When it finally dawned on me that something was wrong, we were at approximately 1,200 feet when I waived off. We figured I pulled my main around 1,000 feet, which was just a second or so before my reserve chute deployed automatically, being fully deployed at approximately 850 feet! Nothing like landing under two chutes (which I did due to a downplane as I went to release the main). Do NOT try this on your own!!"

Clown.

You are way cooler than he is though, so doesn't apply obviously. I appreciate a troll who writes in paragraph form.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>would hit 120mph+ on pretty much a
>daily basis

That means you are hardly even capable of driving a car.

incapable and irresponsible - if someone thinks they can drive 120 on public roads, they should not be allowed to drive....period. Incredibly bad judgement. I don't want anyone that has zero concern or responsibility for others at my DZ.

the alternative is he could afford to use a closed track on a 'daily' basis. then he should just buy his own plane and leave the rest of us in safety.

Don't let him jump - and while we're at it - take away his driver's license and car keys

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shropshire 0]

rehmwa

Don't let him jump - and while we're at it - take away his driver's license and car keys

But give the guy bigger trousers to hide his obvious massive gonads

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Ron 7]

Quote

Those were some examples billvon gave, but they absolutely do not apply to me in relation to solo vs coach jump. I am well aware of altitude, there is no way I'm going to forget to pull at correct altitude, just because nobody is watching. I follow exit separation procedures, why wouldn't I?

I have asked you before and you ignored it... How many of the people that died skydiving thought they were going to die skydiving? How many of the people that died skydiving thought they were in over their head? How many that died thought they were capable of doing whatever killed them?

And what makes you different?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334