What's with these USPA rules? Are they really necessary?

[grimmie 173]

One more time...

Your DZO is required by his agreement with the airport for you to be a USPA member so when you are busy GoProing jump 16 and go in on top of a parked airplane because you are uncurrent and snag your pilot chute on your camera he will have third party liability insurance to cover the damage. Sorry you won't get to read about it in that crappy magazine.

Yes, you can get around this, when the guy opening the new DZ in Cambodia gets going, jump there.

[labrys 0]

History shows that inexperienced jumpers wearing cameras, even tiny little go pros, make dumb mistakes trying to 'get the shot' and hurt themselves and others.

History also shows that un-current jumpers are more likely to hurt themselves or others.

The rules grow out of experience. FWIW, history also shows that people with disdain for the rules are also more likely to hurt themselves or others.

Finally, no one at the DZ has the time or desire to read the fine print on your damned homeowners umbrella policy. STFU and pay for the USPA liability insurance.

Owned by Remi #?

[DocPop 1]

If you don't like it - don't do it.

Nobody here is going to care.

You're not the first person who couldn't get over the fear so hardly ever jumped.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wasatchrider 0]

last weekend a guy on the load who had been jumping for a long time 1st jump back in who knows how long jumping with a gopro tring to film a tantem of his daughter or somebody got into a spin and his aad fired as he pitched road two down.
He probably though Ive been jumping for 20 years I dont need to be current. No big deal to wear a camera. Dude couldnt even fly stable.
oh ya I was last out sitting behind him and had to ask him if he wanted his riser covers not tucked in he didnt know they werent

BASE 1519

[ChrisD 0]

mx_maniac

Well, I am shocked at the responses, that are quite overwhelmingly opposite of my opinions. I do wonder if many of you are a little biased, based on your high frequency jumps, many may not be in touch with the casual skydiver. Nevertheless, still trying to understand why so many disagree, my opinions are simply logical, don't understand how anyone could disagree so strongly.

As far as the camera rule. Indeed, I had found that spot in Section 6-8 (E) 1 (C) that says a C license is "recommended". Nowhere does it say any license is required. If anyone thinks this camera rule makes sense, then why does it? I don't understand it. It would be one thing if someone was jumping with a big, bulky DSLR with bite switch, sight ring, etc which could be a distraction. But a tiny little gopro, where you can press record before even getting in the plane, and forget all about it. Why on earth would a DZ make such a big deal and require a license for that? I see wolfriverjoe agrees, but I'd expect 90% would agree.

As far as skill dropping after 30 days, I still think that's ridiculous. I'm involved in around 20 skill based hobbies, and challenge/skill wise, skydiving is comparatively quite easy. I'm by no means saying I'm some pro, I'm not saying I'm as good as someone who jumps a lot, but I most definitely posses the skills for a safe jump. Shouldn't have to go back and pay extra to re-demonstrate 90 and 360 turns to a coach. Sure, someone who is elite, and involved in complex maneuvers, and challenging techniques, will loose some of their fine tuned advanced skill. But for a guy like me who just wants to do an occasional jump, and is perfectly happy with a little bit of tracking, couple barrel rolls or flips, then a stable arch before pulling, I'm not going to loose much. Those are simple skills, that do not get lost fast. Do I really stand alone on this? Doesn't anybody even partially agree the level of currency guideline is way overblown?

And yes, I do ride dirt bikes / mx, don't race competitively. Sure after a long period of not riding, I'm not as good as before. Won't be hitting as big of jumps, or as gnarly of hill climbs, yet still perfectly capable of a safe ride through the woods or track. I don't need to hire a coach every time I've been off the bike for 3 months.

Also, I still don't understand why current USPA membership should be mandatory. I am already insured under an umbrella policy of my homeowners insurance, and I don't want the magazine. So what is there possibly to gain? How it it not a waste of money? Nobody has really been able to explain this?

As far as mentions for my own plane, it is not quite feasable at the moment, but something I'd love to do down the road. Me and my buddy are both getting ready for pilots lessons soon. As far as base jumping, I actually do want to base jump, but considering the increased danger, I really would only plan to do it maybe 5-10 times in my life and be done. Want to stick more to skydiving.

Please tell me that your only interested in flying the aircraft once it's in the air, please tell me that.....

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[skyjumpenfool 2]

mx_maniac

Well, I am shocked at the responses,.......................Do I really stand alone on this? Doesn't anybody even partially agree the level of currency guideline is way overblown?

Apparently, you do stand alone on this. And, No! Based on the above responses, nobody even "partially" agrees with you. There is much to be learned from this fact alone.

Jump more often, or be prepared to re-train all the time. Or, buy a bowling ball. This is NOT sarcasm. This is me giving you good advice.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[gowlerk 1,903]

Find another sport. We don't need your kind.

Ken

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[chemist 0]

with only 15 jumps your footage will be shit. You can't even do group jumps, free fly or anything worthy of filming.

A lot of places require 200 jumps for a gopro, your DZ is saying 50 and you're calling them lame?!?!

[davelepka 4]

Quote

And yes, I do ride dirt bikes / mx, don't race competitively. Sure after a long period of not riding, I'm not as good as before. Won't be hitting as big of jumps, or as gnarly of hill climbs, yet still perfectly capable of a safe ride through the woods or track

Perfect. Now compare your skill on a dirtbike to that in skydiving. With 15 jumps total over 5 years, you have very little experience in the sport. So if you were to 'dial back' your jumping the same way you do with your riding when returning from a long layoff, what would you end up doing? With your experience (more or less the least possible) the only way for you to take a step back with your jumping is to have a coach or instructor go with you. There's nothing you can do to make your 16th jump easier or safer on your own (like not hitting the big jumps on a bike), so if you take your riding mindset to the DZ, having a coach or instructor with your is 'taking it easy'.

Besides, no amount of taking it easy will help you have a safe ride through the woods when some squid hits a double and plants his back tire on the back of your helmet. That's the same thing I'm afraid of at the DZ, it's not me making a mistake, it's another guy taking me out because he's in over his head.

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Me and my buddy are both getting ready for pilots lessons soon

No shit, be ready for bullshit rules out the wazoo. If you think skydivers have a hard on for being current, show up for a flying lesson with no ink your logbook for a couple months. They'll knock you back 10 steps in your training, and if your protest, your CFI will make an example out of you and do his best to get you to damn near shit your pants. Flying a plane is like skydiving x10 when it comes to knowledge, skill and proficiency. There's a lot going on in the cockpit, and being able to juggle it all is a skill that takes regular practice and currency.

[JackC1 0]

mx_maniac

Well, I am shocked at the responses, that are quite overwhelmingly opposite of my opinions. I do wonder if many of you are a little biased, based on your high frequency jumps, many may not be in touch with the casual skydiver. Nevertheless, still trying to understand why so many disagree, my opinions are simply logical, don't understand how anyone could disagree so strongly.

Don't be surprised. You have been skydiving for literally 15 minutes and people who have done a hell of a lot more of it than you have seen people like you kill and injure themselves and others far too often. Seriously, either take up skydiving or quit completely.

[nigel99 143]

JackC1

***Well, I am shocked at the responses, that are quite overwhelmingly opposite of my opinions. I do wonder if many of you are a little biased, based on your high frequency jumps, many may not be in touch with the casual skydiver. Nevertheless, still trying to understand why so many disagree, my opinions are simply logical, don't understand how anyone could disagree so strongly.

Don't be surprised. You have been skydiving for literally 15 minutes and people who have done a hell of a lot more of it than you have seen people like you kill and injure themselves and others far too often. Seriously, either take up skydiving or quit completely.

Or do the odd tandem when you feel like it.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[shropshire 0]

Wall .... meet Forehead.... [bang].

I did like that the OPs last post was measured and didn't get panties in a wad from all of the negative karma aimed his way ...(shows a level of maturity)...

But it just seems the he doesn't know what he doesn't know and that can be a very dangerous thing in ours (and other) sport.

A lot of folks think that our sport is Easy .. "Hey, it's just falling right?" .... "um - No actually!!"... Some eventually "get it" some don't. Only time will tell with the OP. Might still be worth the time and effort required to educate rather than bash - who knows?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[DougH 270]

nigel99

Or do the odd tandem when you feel like it.

Terrible advice, myself and the rest of the tandem instructors don't want to be strapped to him either.

"I want to do like 80 flips... can we pull really low... can we do that Travis Pastrana thing..."

No thanks.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[obelixtim 100]

I was thinking that rather than being a troll, this guy might be an agent provocateur for an ambulance chaser......

If so, he's not getting very far getting people to agree with him.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ufk22 32]

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."

CLASSIC EXAMPLE RIGHT HERE

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[NorrinRadd 0]

I would conclude from these posts that it is fairly unanimous that people feel the rules are in place for good reason.
Just stating the obvious... best I can manage before I finish my morning coffee.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Quote

Also, I still don't understand why current USPA membership should be mandatory. I am already insured under an umbrella policy of my homeowners insurance, and I don't want the magazine. So what is there possibly to gain? How it it not a waste of money? Nobody has really been able to explain this?

The value of USPA membership is NOT mostly in the magazine or third party insurance. The principle value is the role that USPA plays in protecting our ability to skydive in the US. Yep, were it not for the USPA, jumping in the US might well be limited to a very few, very remote places (if it were allowed at all). USPA does a great job of keeping the government out of our business! Take a look at what few REGULATIONS the FAA places on skydivers. That is due to the hard work of the USPA.

If you think that USPA BSRs and recommendations are too much.... take a look at the degree of regulation imposed by the British Parachute Association!! In comparison, FAA & USPA have almost no rules at all!

BTW... with your short experience in the sport, I suspect that you haven't seen many folks get hurt jumping. Here is the dirty little secret of skydiving in the US..... we have no effective system for counting injuries (and our system for counting fatalities is barely any better). Thus, it appears to new guys and outsiders like skydiving is a whole lot safer than it really is. The number of injures ranging from a twisted ankle to permanent quadriplegia is MUCH higher than it would appear from reading the reports in Parachutist. So, the rules appear excessive..... because the bad outcomes are not very visible. To those of us who have had our friends get hurt or killed in this sport... the perspective is different.

Regarding re-currency.... I have done enough ground re-currency training and supervised enough re-currency jumps (and watched videos of others), to know that:

A. Often un-current jumpers have lost significant (and important) amounts of knowledge needed to stay safe. Some of the performances by un-current jumpers in the training harness when presented with photos of canopy malfunctions can be quite scary.

B. Most re-currency jumps are boring... but some are wild. Instability and loss of altitude awareness can turn a simple jump into a wild one very quickly. The more experience I get as an instructor... the more cautions and skeptical I am on re-currency jumps.

Blue Skies,

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Ron 7]

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Let me ask this, does anybody "agree" with my point of view, that these rules I mentioned are stupid and excessive?

I'll assume you are being honest and not trolling.

Quote

1. My DZ always wants to me to subscribe to this stupid uspa membership, and get this worthless magazine. Waste of money, is this really needed?

I think the USPA membership is a waste.

Quote

2. My DZ does not want me to wear a gopro on my helmet. They claim I need a B license? Really? Is this a requirement, or is my DZ being lame? Its just a set it and forget it camera which does nothing to affect performance. In fact, you learn better when you can review your jump later.

People never 'set it ad forget it'. There are plenty of stories where people made a bad choice directly related to the camera. Each of these people thought they would not be influenced by the camera... Till they were.

So a person having the basic life saving skills of skydiving down before they try to start filming... Good idea.

As for you being able to review the footage and use it to make you better... Nope. POV video doe not really help debriefing a participants skydive. For that you need an outside camera flier.

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3. When its been awhile since my last jump, they want me to do coach jumps. Another DZ claimed if it even goes 30 days past my last jump I need coach jumps, said some USPA requirement or something. Really? Not trying to sound cocky or anything, but even if its been 6-12 months, I know what I'm doing, I haven't forgotten anything. Whether its been 25 days, or 12 months, its no different.

This is also wrong. Currency is important. I'll give you a personal example.... I took about a year off from jumping. I was according to any measurement of the USPA, DZ, and most jumpers current because my version of 'taking a year off' meant that I was only doing AFF and Tandem jumps as an instructor and only made ~100 jumps that year. I was still on a DZ a lot since I was also coaching a 4way team. Well this year I was hired as a player coach for a team... So I did 25 hours of tunnel and so far about 180 team jumps this year. I can easily see the difference in my overall awareness and skill between those two years.

In fact, I even made a comment to my team that one weekend it was like my vision went back to high def where it used to be when I was doing my last team.

So yes.... Currency matters.

Quote

My skill, and knowledge does not just suddenly drop from my head after 30 days.

People like to claim that, but history shows otherwise. It may not matter after you make a few thousand jumps, but at a few hundred going long periods of time and your skills do degrade.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DougH 270]

We are still feeding the troll???

You guys are crazy! This guy is a hobby extraordinaire... he pays his entrance fee, now he wants his instant gratification.

He isn't going to listen to you, but if you like typing for the sake of reading your own posts, then have at it!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[FataMorgana 0]

Quote

I just read the SIM that someone recommended, it was helpful. I didn't see anywhere where it said a b class license is needed for helmet cams, so guessing thats just a dumb rule of my DZ.

SIM does not differentiate between helmet cams and other types of cameras. In section 6-8 (E:1) SIM states clearly the following :

E. Procedures

1. General

a. Prior to jumping, a skydiver should have enough general jump experience to be able to handle any skydiving emergency or minor problem easily and without stress.

b. A camera flyer should possess freefall flying skills well above average and applicable to the planned jump.

(1) belly-to-earth

(2) freeflying (upright and head-down)

(3) canopy formation

(4) multiple (for skysurfing, filming student training jumps, etc.)

c. A USPA C license is recommended.

d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent jumps on the same parachute equipment to be used for camera flying,

e. The camera flyer should know the experience and skills of all the jumpers in the group.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

Stephen Hawking

[skyjumpenfool 2]

DougH

We are still feeding the troll???

You guys are crazy! This guy is a hobby extraordinaire... he pays his entrance fee, now he wants his instant gratification.

He isn't going to listen to you, but if you like typing for the sake of reading your own posts, then have at it!

You're absolutely correct Doug! However, always remember, other students do read this stuff. And, they learn from it. ...right or wrong?

One more commet... OP - It sounds as though you can NOT afford to skydive. That is not a bad thing, many of us feel your pain. There is nothing cheap about this sport. But, lack of funds is no excuss for not staying currenty.

Either get current and licensed, get out of the sport, or continue to opperate under student status. Basically, those are your choices.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[mr2mk1g 10]

mx_maniac

my opinions are simply logical

You know nothing Jon Snow.

[labrys 0]

Quote

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Perfect

Owned by Remi #?

[cube 0]

After reading the first post, I was gonna say you need a lot of practice. But in here it seems people will bite even into the most obvious ones. Not much entertainment value though that way.

[mx_maniac 0]

Well. I appreciate all the responses. I realize I was simply overlooking the obvious. That like so many other things in life, the rules are set up for the "weakest links" aka biggest morons. Which ruins it for others who do not need such rudimentary treatment. I sort of had it in my head that skydivers in general were smarter than the general public, that the sport attracted sharper minded people, but realistically I realize now they simply are the general public.

I read through the long list of small form camera incidents, and can basically sum it up like this. Practically half of them were people who could not even figure out how to use their camera or figure out if it was on, and in the confusion forgot the most basic gear checks like helmet, chest strap. If someone can't even figure out how to use the simplest of cameras, I don't think they can be a competent skydiver. Others somehow were so distracted by the camera, they seemingly lost track of where they even were in relation to the ground. The camera rule SHOULD NOT apply to me. I've been using helmet cams in a wide variety of sports since before these gopros even existed, I know exactly what I'm doing. But the rule is set up to cater to all the morons who cannot handle such a basic task. I know others have "thought" they wouldn't be influenced by the camera, but I can "guarantee" I am not. I have way too many years of videography experience, and way too many hours with a helmet cam.

Same with being current. Everybody is different. Everybody keeps or looses skill at different rates. I've seen someone "current" overshoot the landing zone by like 500 feet and land on the asphalt runway, for no reason than she didn't seem to posess good distance judgement skills. There SHOULD be tolerances for the jumper to assess their own abilities, not some one size fits all rule. I guess a lot of people probably can't judge their own abilities well either. So once again, its the weakest links dragging others down. I could name tons of examples how, "currency" is not a measure of competence, but here is one. When I was learning to unicycle, I got on every day, I learned how to be decent, and could go down the street and back. Well a friend came over and said she used to perform on stage on a unicycle as a kid, she hopped on and, even after 10 years off, performed better than I did, even though she was 10 years out of currency, and I was riding every day. I bet in general there may be a lot of skydivers who are "current", simply because they have the time and money to be, yet don't have that great of critical thinking skills or physical coordination, who are not as safe or capable as others who may not be current.

You all probably assume by my posts I'm some reckless guy with disregard for safety, but that is not the case at all. In all the sports I'm involved in, I actually take safety even more serious than most. I do a lot of potentially dangerous hobbies, and work a dangerous career, yet have an excellent track record for safety. I'm all about gear checks, jumper etequitte, knowing your limit, and other actual safety rules etc. Its just these dumb rules I don't like. A coach jump does not make me any more safe than a solo jump, if anything I'm less safe, with my focus going on running through his routine, gestures, etc is a distraction, rather than solo where I have much greater overall awareness of everything in the jump. Also, re-demonstrating 360 turns does not make me safer. I did 360 turns perfect the first time I ever tried, I have never not been able to do one, so there is absolutely no point to re-demonstrate them, just a waste of $100 extra dollars on top of the jump fee, and taking the fun out of the jump.

Guess I just have to fit in and deal with rudimentary treatment that the few weakest links may need, causing everyone to be subjected to it. Have to do my skydives in small groups, rather than singles. Appreciate the responses, and I can assure you, you are not "feeding a troll", my questions/opinions are all legit.