Is it worth considering going head low/down to deal with a PC in tow before the reserve is popped?

[davelepka 4]

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an aad fire is as much a non-fatality as an rsl working on someone who doesnt touch their reserve handle after a cutaway, for any reason.

Fuck that. An RSL is designed to work at the time of the cutaway. If you respond correctly to a mal, with an RSL, the RSL will come into play. It is impossible for you to 'beat' the RSL. The time between your risers releasing, and the pin being pulled is VERY short.

Again, thats if you respond correctly. Your AAD will not fire unitl you have made either one very large mistake, or a series of smaller errors.

Skydiving is not the place for large mistakes, or a series of smaller ones.

If you do have an AAD fire, nobody will stop you from jumping. But if you do let things get that far out of hand, you've shown that you have the capacity (or lack of) to allow that to happen. It may happen again, it may not. Take your chances accordingly.

"Oh, there's always a chance that blah, blah. Sometimes things you can't control, blah, blah. What if, blah blah."

Anyway you want to cut it, an AAD fire is about the biggest mistake you can make without going to the hospital.

[Yossarian 0]

im not saying anything about beating the rsl, i mean to view an aad as the same as an rsl if something is missed out, for example pulling cutaway but not touching reserve handle, for any reason, including, for instance, a popped shoulder. what i mean is that in such an instance they perform exactly the same function, popping the reserve because u havent. what i went on to say was that whereas with an aad fire its obvious on the ground that the aad fired, the rsl will go whether you've performed eps correctly or not so nobody can tell if youve messed up

[NWFlyer 2]

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the rsl will go whether you've performed eps correctly or not so nobody can tell if youve messed up

If your reserve handle is still seated it's pretty obvious you didn't perform your complete EPs.

[davelepka 4]

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the rsl will go whether you've performed eps correctly or not so nobody can tell if youve messed up

Thats the difference. If your RSL does anything, it's becasue you pulled the cutaway handle. You did something.

The AAD fires when you do nothing. You may cutaway and then have an AAD fire, but in that case, you didn't equip your rig with an RSL, and then you didn't pull the reserve ripcord after your cutaway.

For the record, any reserve opening under 700ft is a big mistake. AAD, RSL or by hand, anyway you slice it, you fucked up.

[diablopilot 2]

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Keep pulling all your handles and fighting to get a workable canopy above your head until your goggles fill with blood.

Heard that somewhere before.....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mdrejhon 8]

I agree with you -- bellydown attitude if possible.


However, I have a question. Isn't the reserve PC springloaded? Is the springloading strong enough to overcome relative wind for the first fraction of a second (6 feet of bridle)? Also, isn't the reserve PC tilted slightly away from the main PC, meaning if there is enough force in the spring to overcome the relative wind, you'd have more distance between the reserve PC and the main PC if you track forward before pulling reserve in a PC-in-tow? Theoretically, wouldn't the answer might even be a "yes" - only that there is no guarantee that the spring is strong enough to overcome the 120mph relative wind to clear the PC-in-tow with more clearance than belly-down. And that is precisely why bellydown is safest, because you're at least guaranteed a minimum separation at least;


By default, I agree with staying bellydown attitude (if not stood up) -- safest option if if I ever have a PC-in-tow and need to EP immediately. That's what I am taught. I just have the above curiousity.

[billvon 2,394]

>Is the springloading strong enough to overcome relative wind for
>the first fraction of a second (6 feet of bridle)?

Well, it's definitely strong enough to overcome drag for at least 4 feet! (the length of the spring) But the relative wind is the dominant factor after that. I've had up close views of several hundred spring-loaded PC deployments, and occasionally they just get an odd launch, go sideways, hit the wind, flip over and bop around on the guy's back for a few moments. Which is why some rig manufacturers (like Jump Shack) recommend a head-high attitude during reserve deployment; less burble, less chance of getting the PC stuck back there.

[pchapman 261]

I think more emphasis should be on the issue of the burble, than the simple linear distance between main and reserve bridles.

I like the idea of going a little shoulder low when deploying a reserve past a PC in tow, to angle the reserve PC launch outwards. The idea is not so much to get the reserve PC pushing out into the airflow to get away from the main bridle. I don't think the PC will get very far to the side before it gets swept away by the strong relative wind from below, especially if the firing angle is still close to vertical.

Instead, the idea is to get a consistent launch, placing the PC into cleaner air, instead of accepting the randomness that sometimes happens when a PC is deployed in a burble.

(Of course things one theorizes at the computer aren't always practical when altitude is disappearing fast. But I could image going a little left shoulder low when my left hand came in to the reserve handle. After a good launch, I'd theoretically try to get my shoulders level again for a more symmetrical reserve inflation.)

While many, many times reserves have fired past PC's or other junk in tow, there are enough cases where they haven't. One hears of one bridle 'wrapping around' another, something that might have started with a PC whipping around while making its way up through the turbulent, churning air of the burble.

I'm not sure to what degree spring loaded pilot chute hesitations (due to the burble) have lessened using modern high strength pilot chute springs. I've seen some nasty AFF videos with a PC bouncing all over the student (although its a big burble with 3 people).

To appeal to higher authority, I'll throw in a quote from the Great Bearded One (billbooth):

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Unless you have a lot of experience with internal, spring loaded pilot chutes (and therefore know how to "break the burble" at pull time to get them to deploy without hesitation), don't assume that pulling a reserve ripcord while falling "stable" at 1,000 feet at terminal velocity, is high enough. A pilot chute hesitation can easily eat up 500 feet or more. (We are all so spoiled by hand deployed pilot chutes.)

It makes me think!

[Trae 1]

in reply to"Is it worth considering going head low/down to deal with a PC in tow before the reserve is popped?"
..........................

The simple answer is NO !

If you are sure it's a PC in tow DON"T HESITATE. INITIATE EMERGENCY PROCEDURES.............PRONTO.

If you have a look over your shoulder often that will clear a burbled PC.
If you can't see anything behind you check your pud . It may still be there waiting for you to deploy it properly.
If still no joy ..it is a high speed malfunction so immediately initiate your emergency procedures.

If you just bang out the reserve without looking or cutting away there is the possibility that the main will deploy giving you two canopies out.
This can happen if you are a little too fast onto the reserve as in a panicked state. (Your mains PC may have been woffling in the burble or the PC may still be partially in its pouch.....not quite the same as a PC in tow.)

Being in a flat stable position gives your reserve it's best chance of clearing a towed PC and bridle. Being in a head down possy increases the chances of entanglement.

All things said and done it really sucks to go in and still have handles that need pulling..... so don't muck with it .... use it/them as you've been trained... and don't forget to practice until your emergency procedures become almost automatic.

[mouth 0]

I have had this problem and can tell you from first hand experience that it happens way quicker than you'd like to imagine. I cut-away then pulled silver in hopes of clearing the PC; however, since the pin had come off the bridle the PC wrapped around my reserve riser causing me to have to fight with it the entire way down trying to get to my reserve toggles. My only thoughts were to flare using rear risers and PLF as thankfully I had a good canopy over my head. Now I know I can land my reserve....even on rears and I know I want something out ASAP during a high speed mal.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[unfeomateo 1]

ON jump 27 I had a PC mal, when I reached for my cutaway that sent enough air over my back to pull my canopy out. THat was the closest I came to cutting away. Good thing I pulled high and had plenty of time.

[NSEMN8R 0]

I met a guy in Rantoul last year that said they train their students to do a barrel roll if they have a pc in tow. He says they've trained hundreds of students like that and was surprised that I'd never heard of it.

Intentionally wrapping your self up in your bridle seems like a pretty bad idea to me even for someone with some experience. I couldn't believe there are actually dzs that train their student this way.

Anybody else ever heard of this?

[AFFI 0]

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I met a guy in Rantoul last year that said they train their students to do a barrel roll if they have a pc in tow. He says they've trained hundreds of students like that and was surprised that I'd never heard of it.

Intentionally wrapping your self up in your bridle seems like a pretty bad idea to me even for someone with some experience. I couldn't believe there are actually dzs that train their student this way.

Anybody else ever heard of this?

Are you certain about this?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NSEMN8R 0]

I'm absolutely certain about it.

He was from Taylorville, IL.

[AFFI 0]

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I'm absolutely certain about it.

He was from Taylorville, IL.

I am eageer to learn the how's and why's of this training technique, I cretainly am not going to be quick to condemn.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,394]

> I met a guy in Rantoul last year that said they train their students to do
>a barrel roll if they have a pc in tow.

I don't doubt that people train students this way. I once talked to an AFF-I who weighed 240lbs and put 10-20lbs of weight on all his students. His DZ was right next to a lake. I am sure the procedure worked for him hundreds of times.

>He says they've trained hundreds of students like that and was surprised
>that I'd never heard of it.

I trained a little over 1000 students over 3 years and never saw a bag lock. That doesn't mean that bag locks never happen, and if I stopped teaching how to deal with them based on "hey, I never saw it happen so it's not important" it would be a mistake.

Experience in any endeavor is a good thing. But one of the advantages of an organization like USPA is that they can condense the experience of hundreds of instructors into a syllabus, so that people don't have to learn firsthand why it's a bad idea to just wait for your AAD to fire, or why it's not a good idea to cut away at 5 feet over water, or why it's a bad idea to barrel roll while towing stuff. Seeing a few hundred student jumps isn't really a substitute for that sort of experience.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "I met a guy in Rantoul last year that said they train their students to do a barrel roll if they have a pc in tow......Anybody else ever heard of this? "
.......................

No but I'm gonna try an' remember 'cause its so phookin' funny

CAUTION the following statement is a JOKE.
Those Rantoul instructors mustn't have thought it thru'. He'd be better off teaching a frontloop....then those unwitting students would have a chance to grab the Pc and bridle and either hold it or yank it out.....

Caution bad satirical JOKE about student safety procedures above.

How does this barrel loop sort of thing get taught?
Too much jungle juice or ???

[JohnRich 4]

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I met a guy in Rantoul last year that said they train their students to do a barrel roll if they have a pc in tow.

Ack!

I could see how someone would get the idea that a barrel roll would wrap the bridle around your body, thereby shortening the length that is trailing behind you, which could give the reserve pilot chute a better chance of hitting clean air without interference. And if you buy that theory, then two barrel rolls is better than one!

However, there is no guarantee that when the bridle wraps around your body that it won't wrap around the reserve container flaps. So I think this is a really dumb idea.

[NSEMN8R 0]

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Those Rantoul instructors

I didn't mean to imply that the guy worked at Rantoul. I just met him there.

[riggerrob 558]

First time I have heard of that reaction to a pilot chute in tow.
How is the poor student supposed to know whether to roll left or right?
Do they teach barrel rolls on the first or second jump?
Do they teach old-school barrel rolls, french rolls, tonneau rolls, etc.?

[AFFI 0]

Or you BR wraping th bridle around your body, deoy the reserve and then the main comes out in a horseshoe?

I doubt we will see 3 methods of dealing with this mal in the SIM anytime soon.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[goose491 0]

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I met a guy in Rantoul last year that said they train their students to do a barrel roll if they have a pc in tow...

Are you certain about this?

It's true, I have met people who were taught this way

IMHO, wraping a bridal around yourself is a good way to help your reserve malfunction. Also, PC in tow is high-speed yeah? I wouldn't want to waste the time.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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(IN JEST) He'd be better off teaching a frontloop....then those unwitting students would have a chance to grab the Pc and bridle and either hold it or yank it out.....

Well, I see where this would be safer then a barrel roll because the bridal don't get wrapped around your reserve closing flaps or over the pop-top ... but is this additional safety worth the tradeoff?? What I mean is, it might not be so bad if the PC in tow was caused by a uncocked PC... but a cocked one does provide some 80lbs of tension at terminal... I would NOT want to be straddling that bridal

lol

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!