wicodefly 0 #1 September 14, 2013 So I'm a recent AFF graduate and at my DZ (which I'm guessing is on the small side) it's really tough to get rental gear. I've literally had to sit for hours (especially on weekends) to get some. They've made it clear to me that that tandems, students, and then fun jumpers get priority for rigs, loads and packing.. I get it; it's a business. At the same time I've brought in 11 tandems (with more friends wanting to do it soon), and quite a bit of money too. I've taken a client or two skydiving as well. Anyway, they only have like three rental rigs that fit me (one of them is kind of scary to me). And one always seems to be broken. I suuuuck at packing (have only one or two successful pack jobs) and even though I've asked numerous times, they don't have a lot of packers and it seems no one really wants to help. They're too busy packing tandems. Anyway, maybe more a vent than anything else. Everyone there is great, just the gear situation sucks. Maybe I'll try a larger DZ. I've been meaning to check one out but haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm a little scared since it would be a different plane, gear, and landing zone. I have at least gotten used to my new helmet though :) Maybe I should just buy my own rig?Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #2 September 14, 2013 Yes, you should buy your own rig. If you buy a used rig with the intention to do one hundred jumps on it and then resell it you should be able to have an effective cost of $5.00/jump or less. Renting is not only frustrating, but poor economics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wicodefly 0 #3 September 14, 2013 AndrewwhyteYes, you should buy your own rig. If you buy a used rig with the intention to do one hundred jumps on it and then resell it you should be able to have an effective cost of $5.00/jump or less. Renting is not only frustrating, but poor economics. Yea, when you put it that way it definitely makes financial sense. I will look into it. Looking at classified now :)Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #4 September 14, 2013 wicodeflyI suuuuck at packing (have only one or two successful pack jobs) and even though I've asked numerous times, they don't have a lot of packers and it seems no one really wants to help. They're too busy packing tandems.Hang out *AFTER* jumping and talk to the packers, fun jumpers, instructors, and riggers about packing.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingRhenquest 1 #5 September 14, 2013 Yeah, buy your own rig. You might also want to shop around for DZs. I suspect you're going about asking for packing help the wrong way. Instead of asking someone to show you, insist loudly and with the packers in earshot that you watched a youtube video and you know EXACTLY how to pack this! Then start doing a psycho pack. In less than 5 minutes, someone will be showing you how to pack it (Psycho pack might still be more fun, though...)I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Highradwarrior 1 #6 September 14, 2013 Out of curiosity, did you take a packing class? That was mandatory for part of my AFF. Also, I psycho pack religiously, lol...... could never get the damn thing in the bag any other way when it was new. Granted, I only have around 40 pack jobs.... I have yet have an issue. And it opens so much softer then when I've had a packer help me make a load. Most people frown upon it when they find out that I pack that way, and I really get the stink eye when I tell them I learned to do it from a youtube vid, lol! Probably not recommended, but what the hell. Sun, Fun, and Blue Ones Respect Existence, Or Expect Resistance! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wicodefly 0 #7 September 15, 2013 FlyingRhenquestYeah, buy your own rig. You might also want to shop around for DZs. I suspect you're going about asking for packing help the wrong way. Instead of asking someone to show you, insist loudly and with the packers in earshot that you watched a youtube video and you know EXACTLY how to pack this! Then start doing a psycho pack. In less than 5 minutes, someone will be showing you how to pack it (Psycho pack might still be more fun, though...) Love this answer!!! I will try of tomorrow.Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wicodefly 0 #8 September 15, 2013 Highradwarrior Out of curiosity, did you take a packing class? That was mandatory for part of my AFF. Also, I psycho pack religiously, lol...... could never get the damn thing in the bag any other way when it was new. Granted, I only have around 40 pack jobs.... I have yet have an issue. And it opens so much softer then when I've had a packer help me make a load. Most people frown upon it when they find out that I pack that way, and I really get the stink eye when I tell them I learned to do it from a youtube vid, lol! Probably not recommended, but what the hell. Yes I did get packing training. It definitely wasn't a formal class. The biggest problem I have right now are the S folds and getting a big ass canopu in that tiny ass bag. Everything gets all messes up when I am trying to stuff it in and I have to start over.Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #9 September 15, 2013 it just takes practice...NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wicodefly 0 #10 September 15, 2013 The great news is I spoke with someone that was kind enough to contact me from the DZ and she's going to spend some time helping me. Awesome!Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingRhenquest 1 #12 September 15, 2013 wicodeflyThe great news is I spoke with someone that was kind enough to contact me from the DZ and she's going to spend some time helping me. Awesome! Hah! See! You don't even need to do it within earshot! Just threaten to psycho pack their stuff... Ah seriously though, I had to retry it to the folding stage about 10 times before I got to the point where I could get it in the bag. I'm not sure I could even really tell you exactly what I was doing wrong, other than not keeping the top skin taught enough and not getting enough air out of everything. To some extent I was (and still do) have some trouble getting the pressure I put on the various folds just right. I'll put my knee on something too hard and all the fabric will still squirt out. My packing is still sloppy as all hell too. I watch the packers do it and they somehow manage to get my canopy into a nice tight square package that slips into the D-Bag effortlessly. I do the same thing and it's just fabric and lines everywhere. At some point I just said "Fuck it. I'm probably going to have to cut this away but I'm jumping it anyway." And it opened. My packing seems to be getting better if not really much faster. On my last pack job I thought to myself, "You know, I don't think that one was all that bad..." Which perversely worries me more than when I thought I was probably going to have to cut it away.I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #13 September 15, 2013 FlyingRhenquest I'll put my knee on something too hard and all the fabric will still squirt out. One of the most common mistakes I see newer packers making is that they try to man-handle and over control the canopy. This is especially difficult to do with a newer zp canopy. When my canopy is reduced to bag width, I can hold it there with two fingers. It takes some getting used to, but it's not terribly difficult."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutem 0 #14 September 15, 2013 wicodefly ***Out of curiosity, did you take a packing class? That was mandatory for part of my AFF. Also, I psycho pack religiously, lol...... could never get the damn thing in the bag any other way when it was new. Granted, I only have around 40 pack jobs.... I have yet have an issue. And it opens so much softer then when I've had a packer help me make a load. Most people frown upon it when they find out that I pack that way, and I really get the stink eye when I tell them I learned to do it from a youtube vid, lol! Probably not recommended, but what the hell. Yes I did get packing training. It definitely wasn't a formal class. The biggest problem I have right now are the S folds and getting a big ass canopu in that tiny ass bag. Everything gets all messes up when I am trying to stuff it in and I have to start over. http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #15 September 15, 2013 chutem http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag.Agreed. I'm kinda curious why this isn't shown more often to struggling new packers.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #16 September 15, 2013 voilsbI'm kinda curious why this isn't shown more often to struggling new packers. I completely agree. There are a whole lot of things that could be done to make learning packing easier... but it seems that far too often there is a sense of "I learned the hard way, you can too!" Either that, or packing is taught by the professional packers, who have a conflict of interest. It is in the professional packer's best interest for the student to NOT learn to pack well. Things I DON'T see done with students learning to pack: ---Start with a ragged out F-111 canopy and let them master the process first, then learn to apply it to the ZP canopy. ---Start with a smaller canopy and then move up to the huge student canopy. ---Teach any of the alternate bagging methods for the folds (such as above). ---Or, heaven forbid, teach psycho packing as an intro... and then advance them to folding later. I believe that a clean psycho pack is FAR safer than a sloppy folded pack which may let the slider migrate down or the brake lines move around front. As a novice, it was a slammer opening which inspired me to learn to psycho pack.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #17 September 15, 2013 voilsb *** http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. Agreed. I'm kinda curious why this isn't shown more often to struggling new packers. I had the hardest time packing! Got so frustrated it pretty much made the jump not fun for me because I was dreading the pack job! My husband finally showed me the technique like the one in this link. MUCH better now!! Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #18 September 15, 2013 GLIDEANGLE ***I'm kinda curious why this isn't shown more often to struggling new packers. I completely agree. There are a whole lot of things that could be done to make learning packing easier... but it seems that far too often there is a sense of "I learned the hard way, you can too!" Either that, or packing is taught by the professional packers, who have a conflict of interest. It is in the professional packer's best interest for the student to NOT learn to pack well. Things I DON'T see done with students learning to pack: ---Start with a ragged out F-111 canopy and let them master the process first, then learn to apply it to the ZP canopy. ---Start with a smaller canopy and then move up to the huge student canopy. ---Teach any of the alternate bagging methods for the folds (such as above). ---Or, heaven forbid, teach psycho packing as an intro... and then advance them to folding later. I believe that a clean psycho pack is FAR safer than a sloppy folded pack which may let the slider migrate down or the brake lines move around front. As a novice, it was a slammer opening which inspired me to learn to psycho pack. I started flat packing a 282sqft Raven IV as a student, ragged-out F11, then moved to pro packing. When I got my first canopy (a nearly-new Fusion 210) I thought I was the worst packer in the world because I simply couldn't get the fucker in the bag on a regular basis. We're talking 40 minute packjobs. I went to Eloy a few months later and one of their packers told me never to bring my rig back to her Eventually I got a bridle extension and started psycho packing (which I don't get why everyone freaks out about), and everything got a lot easier. My second canopy was a Fusion 190 and as Precision officially recommends the psycho pack I'm still doing it. That said, when I used a borrowed rig last week I did my first pro pack in about 7 years on it, and it was hilariously frustrating because I was so out of practice. cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 September 16, 2013 chutem ******Out of curiosity, did you take a packing class? That was mandatory for part of my AFF. Also, I psycho pack religiously, lol...... could never get the damn thing in the bag any other way when it was new. Granted, I only have around 40 pack jobs.... I have yet have an issue. And it opens so much softer then when I've had a packer help me make a load. Most people frown upon it when they find out that I pack that way, and I really get the stink eye when I tell them I learned to do it from a youtube vid, lol! Probably not recommended, but what the hell. Yes I did get packing training. It definitely wasn't a formal class. The biggest problem I have right now are the S folds and getting a big ass canopu in that tiny ass bag. Everything gets all messes up when I am trying to stuff it in and I have to start over. http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. ............................................................................... I do a variation on this method, but break it down into three distinctive steps. With my knees on the bottom, I fold it in half and stuff the middle portion into the top of the bag. Secondly, I stuff the top portion into the d-bag. Thirdly, I stuff the bottom portion into the d-bag. I stow suspension lines in the first rubber band before letting go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wicodefly 0 #20 September 16, 2013 OP here. Well, some great people at my DZ saw this post and helped. They spent time with me today helping me learn to pack better. I learned a lot and was even able to get the canopy in the bag properly. I feel a bit more confident. It's so much easier in a relaxed environment and with some one-on-one time. Thanks guys ;) I really, really appreciate it! Thanks for everyone's input.Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #21 September 16, 2013 My new rig will be delivered next month. For now, I rent a rig. Having been a student myself in the very recent past, I defer to the students. If there are AFF students, I wait and hang out. I'm at the DZ for the full day anyway and so I spend the time reading the SIM, watching the packing, asking questions etc. Yes , i would rather jump but there's always something to do at a DZ other than jump. When the students are done, I get a jump or two in. It works out quite well. The DZ is a business and profit margin (if you want to call it that) is thin, very very thin. Some DZ's operate month to month, i.e. they don't know if they'll make enough cash to keep operating the next month. So if you want that DZ to stick around for the future for you to have a place to jump, please keep this in mind that a large part of the revenue is made from AFF students and tandem jumps. I think if you engaged the DZO and other instructors, they'd be more than happy to steer you in the right direction on equipment buys and keep a look out for good used rigs up for sale. When you have your own rig, you'll be able to jump whenever you want AND be able to practice packing to your heart's content. Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kcjen24 0 #22 September 16, 2013 Quote http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. I never had a successful pack job when I was putting the S-fold in first. Someone showed me this method right before I got my license... no problems since! Makes packing SO much easier!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wicodefly 0 #23 September 16, 2013 kcjen24 Quote http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. I never had a successful pack job when I was putting the S-fold in first. Someone showed me this method right before I got my license... no problems since! Makes packing SO much easier!! Looking at it closely, it's exactly what I learned last night and made it soo much easier. It was like knee turns for me, they just clicked.Chance favors the prepared mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #24 September 16, 2013 chutem http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. This exactly! I've been teaching that for years. It's how we used to put ROUND parachutes into bags, once S-fold at a time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #25 September 16, 2013 JohnMitchell *** http://www.sidsrigging.com/articles/greed.htm This method helped me get that big slippery sucker in the bag. This exactly! I've been teaching that for years. It's how we used to put ROUND parachutes into bags, once S-fold at a time. Yep!!! Also, this method allows you to keep control of the "nose" of the canopy until the tail is "in the bag". Then, Just fold the (still under control) nose into the bag and close.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites