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nutellaontoast

Alternatives to jump numbers as a gateway for progression?

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For many things in skydiving, jump numbers are used to determine whether a jumper is ready to explore a new discipline or add a level of complexity to their skydive. But I think it's a not too controversial thing to say that this is a far from perfect system.

200 jumps for flying a camera, as a random example. I think we've all seen both jumpers with far fewer than that who are heads up enough to fly cameras as well as jumpers with far more than that who make us a little nervous adding variables to the equation.

So I was wondering what kind of alternatives people may have tried to come up with for various things? I've seen checklists for canopy progression and vertical flying progression (Though hardly universally adopted). And there are A licenses cards for proving the possession of the actual skills needed to safely jump with others.

But what of other disciplines? What would a skill check for camera flying look like? Starting to WS? Some other discipline that I'm forgetting?

Don't really have concrete ideas myself. Just wanted to see what other people might come up with.
Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about

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I had a discussion along these lines on the weekend.
A newer jumper wants to travel to the States and do a wingsuit course. (I recommended DSE at Elsinore). The talk continued, and he mentioned that he was going to smash out a bunch of HnPs to get his numbers up.
After a few more questions, I suggested he actually go to Perris before Elsinore and get in a bunch of (50-100) belly jumps with the crew there, and then go and see Spot.

Jump numbers should be a 1st point of reference, not a sole point.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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The principle of individual skill licenses is very good.

We have a form of that here in Australia with our Crest system.

Starcrest - Allowed to do FS with more than 10 people
Freefly crest - Allowed to freefly with 3 or more people
Wingsuit crest - certain wingsuit privileges
CRW crest - certain CRW privleges
Night rating - allowed to do RW at night.

All of the above have a specific training table and set of skills that need to be demonstrated in order to gain the crest.

I highlighted the fact that the principle is good, because in practice it only provides an entry gate and the following flaws exist.

1) There is no accounting for currency, so you can get your Starcrest at less than 100 jumps, never jump with any other people for the next 10 years and technically you are still legal to jump on a bigway.

2) Typically there are only 3 jumps in a descent table. Like AFF people believe that you should be 'passing' all the training jumps first time. This attitude extends to a reasonable number of tutors providing the crest training. So rather than a high standard of proficiency a highly variable level of sign-off exists. I'm not suggesting people are rubber stamping the application with no skills shown, just that it would be better if a higher standard was held. I see the evidence of this most often when we do Starcrests and people WITH their crest are the ones that don't make it into the formation. To me that is inexcusable and highlights the flaws in the system.

Despite all of this it is a good system and has minimal administrative overhead. People complain about costs, the bulk of the cost is in the coached slots which you should be doing anyway. If people properly logged their jumps so that you could use a Crest and logbook I think you would have a good basis for judging skills.

Ultimately it fails, because people don't see the value in the system. Like virtually all preventative measures the more successful they are, the less value people place on their effectiveness. Last year was a terrible year for fatalities in Australia, and besides a couple of medical deaths, many of them had at least 1 rule that was broken.

So sadly it comes down to the fact that the people who need training and guidance the most are those that are least likely to take it or value it.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Squeak


I had a discussion along these lines on the weekend.
A newer jumper wants to travel to the States and do a wingsuit course. (I recommended DSE at Elsinore). The talk continued, and he mentioned that he was going to smash out a bunch of HnPs to get his numbers up.
After a few more questions, I suggested he actually go to Perris before Elsinore and get in a bunch of (50-100) belly jumps with the crew there, and then go and see Spot.

Jump numbers should be a 1st point of reference, not a sole point.



What is your feeling on the value of the APF Crest system?
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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nigel99

The principle of individual skill licenses is very good.



Oh yea, reality of implementation is a whole other can of worms that, frankly, bores the hell out of me. :) Not that it's not worthwhile, but the problems there to me are fairly obvious; you mentioned a few and of course there are many others.

What does the WS crest entail? Here I have only seen two kinds of WS training. A two jump method, where a couched tracking jump is made to mimic WSing, and then the student is put in a WS and off they go, and a one jump method that leaves out the tracking.
Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about

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nutellaontoast

***The principle of individual skill licenses is very good.



Oh yea, reality of implementation is a whole other can of worms that, frankly, bores the hell out of me. :) Not that it's not worthwhile, but the problems there to me are fairly obvious; you mentioned a few and of course there are many others.

What does the WS crest entail? Here I have only seen two kinds of WS training. A two jump method, where a couched tracking jump is made to mimic WSing, and then the student is put in a WS and off they go, and a one jump method that leaves out the tracking.

Sorry I've got no interest in Wingsuiting so I haven't read the requirements, but the apf.asn.au has all the manuals online.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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nigel99

***
I had a discussion along these lines on the weekend.
A newer jumper wants to travel to the States and do a wingsuit course. (I recommended DSE at Elsinore). The talk continued, and he mentioned that he was going to smash out a bunch of HnPs to get his numbers up.
After a few more questions, I suggested he actually go to Perris before Elsinore and get in a bunch of (50-100) belly jumps with the crew there, and then go and see Spot.

Jump numbers should be a 1st point of reference, not a sole point.



What is your feeling on the value of the APF Crest system?

I like the idea of the Crest system, I think it's a little to strict in the Freefly area.
What i dont like is the progression of the sport from a club (mates helping mates) mentality to a more business model.
i.e. the costs to do B Rels is horrendously more expensive than when i did them.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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I'm always amazed that there isn't a stronger alliance between the USPA and the IBA.

Before I ever jumped out of a plane I had 4 or 5 hours of flying in a tunnel where I was above proficient on my belly, back, and sit flying. It took no time at all to complete AFF and near the end of the program all we were doing was playing simon says.

That said free fall is only half the skydive. I'm stating the obvious here but there is a huge difference between flying your body and flying your canopy.

A progression model that disassociated free fall from canopy work would be a good place to start.

It would be nice to see the USPA incorporate the fact that wind tunnels are great teaching tools. They are the video game version of skydiving but it should count for something.

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offaxis



That said free fall is only half the skydive. I'm stating the obvious here but there is a huge difference between flying your body and flying your canopy.



And what you can do in the tunnel is only half of the freefall portion. Tunnel can't teach you exits, diving/approaching a formation, tracking, breakoff safety, etc. Tunnel's a useful tool but being a badass tunnel flyer does not automatically make you ready for all types of skydives.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I think we've all seen both jumpers with far fewer than that who are heads up enough to fly cameras




No, I haven't and I've been cruising around this patch longer than most.

Want an alternative criteria?

Judgment and attitude. As measured by someone who has some.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Disclaimer - I love the sky far more than the tunnel and I have a huge amount of respect for good belly flying!

That said - Judgement and attitude are subjective and can't really be measured. Your ability to fall in a stable position can.

Agreed that great tunnel flyers don't equate to great big way / RW skills but i'd hesitate less to do some fun jumping / 2 way vfs with a tunnel rat with 100 jumps than a d license belly flier who recently started freeflying assuming adequate break off / tracking skills exist in the tunnel rat.

My whole point is I think i learned to fly my body far more efficiently in the tunnel than if I'd just done AFF (even belly) and the USPA should recognize that jumping from a plane isn't the only way to get a solid foundation for free fall.

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They are the video game version of skydiving but it should count for something.



Not near as much as you appear to be giving them credit for. The biggest thing they do not teach is judgement.

Many skydiving instructors do not teach this basic survival skill. It's not in the ISP, or the SIM. It's an evaluative process that needs to be done in the environment.

Freefall skills are such an minor part of staying alive in this sport, yet that's where most of the industry continues to put it's focus.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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diablopilot



Not near as much as you appear to be giving them credit for. The biggest thing they do not teach is judgement.

Many skydiving instructors do not teach this basic survival skill. It's not in the ISP, or the SIM. It's an evaluative process that needs to be done in the environment.

Freefall skills are such an minor part of staying alive in this sport, yet that's where most of the industry continues to put it's focus.



Forgive me for sounding flip, but how does one teach or evaluate judgment?

I've certainly been wrong about people's judgment in the past, and I'd say even my own. I'd love to hear your input about things I can do to improve that.
Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about

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I would argue that good judgement comes from, in part, your own confidence in your ability to make the right decision.

Most people I know are not scared of the canopy work they need to do on their first jump but are terrified of falling from a moving air craft.

Seeding those individuals with a foundation they can start from would most likely make for a more confident, and therefore better judging flier.

Overconfidence can be as bad as ignorance. Skydiving longevity takes a humble person who know his/her limits (whether that's doing vice versa exits out the door or rocking a 2.0 wing loading 200 jumps into the sport).

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NWFlyer

***
Tunnel can't teach you exits, diving/approaching a formation, tracking, breakoff safety, etc. Tunnel's a useful tool but being a badass tunnel flyer does not automatically make you ready for all types of skydives.

Having that much air sense makes all that tracking, swooping, etc. pretty easy to learn. In fact, I see the tunnel instructors doing bad ass swoops, forward motion, etc. in the 14' tunnel at iFlySeattle all the time.

One tunnel rat that I took on a Level 7 this month had, by his second tracking jump, better form that 75% of the people I jump with every weekend. ;) Our kid's first dive to dock? Nailed it. It's amazing what those tunnels are doing to the sport.

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JohnMitchell

******
Tunnel can't teach you exits, diving/approaching a formation, tracking, breakoff safety, etc. Tunnel's a useful tool but being a badass tunnel flyer does not automatically make you ready for all types of skydives.

Having that much air sense makes all that tracking, swooping, etc. pretty easy to learn. In fact, I see the tunnel instructors doing bad ass swoops, forward motion, etc. in the 14' tunnel at iFlySeattle all the time.

One tunnel rat that I took on a Level 7 this month had, by his second tracking jump, better form that 75% of the people I jump with every weekend. ;) Our kid's first dive to dock? Nailed it. It's amazing what those tunnels are doing to the sport.

John I see your point, but I'm also reminded of the recent fatality where the tunnel flier was jumping a tiny sponsored parachute.

Once off B license I am a strong believer in the Australian system, despite it's flaws. Individual skill licenses (Crests) allow for the skilled and provide a baseline performance measurement.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Squeak

******
I had a discussion along these lines on the weekend.
A newer jumper wants to travel to the States and do a wingsuit course. (I recommended DSE at Elsinore). The talk continued, and he mentioned that he was going to smash out a bunch of HnPs to get his numbers up.
After a few more questions, I suggested he actually go to Perris before Elsinore and get in a bunch of (50-100) belly jumps with the crew there, and then go and see Spot.

Jump numbers should be a 1st point of reference, not a sole point.



What is your feeling on the value of the APF Crest system?

I like the idea of the Crest system, I think it's a little to strict in the Freefly area.
What i dont like is the progression of the sport from a club (mates helping mates) mentality to a more business model.
i.e. the costs to do B Rels is horrendously more expensive than when i did them.

I agree on the commercialisation and as someone who started off in a club environment, I really struggle with the commercial basis that modern skydiving operates on. Sadly and this isn't the thread for it, due to the legal landscape we operate in, I don't know that you can afford to not charge above and beyond your slot in Australia anymore.

I can't comment on whether the Freefly crest is to difficult, but I'd like to see the Starcrest kept as it is and people should only pass if all the requirements are met and that is including everyone being in the right slot. So the big roundie type starcrests with no designated slots shouldn't be allowed.

Despite my criticism of the Crest system and how various people implement it. I think it is realistic and considerably better than having no gauge. Anybody getting into a new discipline should be getting coaching, so I don't accept coaching costs as an argument against crests. If anything I think it reinforces the need, as those who feel they don't need coaching and assessment probably need it the most:D.

The cost of registering your crest is minimal in the scheme of things (about 1.5 jump tickets).

On a similar note, I'd like to see jumpers tested on ops regs and practical aspects of the sport. I know I'm a book worm, but I am shocked at the complete lack of knowledge so many jumpers show.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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nigel99


John I see your point, but I'm also reminded of the recent fatality where the tunnel flier was jumping a tiny sponsored parachute.

Once off B license I am a strong believer in the Australian system, despite it's flaws. Individual skill licenses (Crests) allow for the skilled and provide a baseline performance measurement.

Yes, I know that case well. The jumper had a long history of poor canopy judgement and had many people try to warn him off that canopy. Heartbreaking. [:/]

I'm all for performance measurement and building skills. Just realize that there will always be faster and slower learners, and that tunnel rats have a HUGE head start on air skills. As long as you can instill them with respect for altitude awareness, gear checks and canopy control.

And I prefer certain jump numbers for trying new things. If someone can't make the effort to get 200 jumps before trying a wingsuit, I would like them to go hurt themselves in some other sport, please.

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nutellaontoast



Forgive me for sounding flip, but how does one teach or evaluate judgment?

I've certainly been wrong about people's judgment in the past, and I'd say even my own. I'd love to hear your input about things I can do to improve that.



By being "around" and having the experience and knowledge to see when someone is over their head.
There have been several recent fatalities where those with evaluative skills (they are long-time instructors) have spoken to the decedent in advance about their shortcomings.
For whatever reason, most of us are unable to judge our own relative skill levels. The average skydiver truly believes they're "above average."
How do you improve on that? Find someone possessing the skills you desire/believe you have, and have them jump with you from an evaluative perspective.

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One small point. Tunnel time is great and a wonderful tool. Confidence and being comfortable is an asset to a limit. When someone is really good in the tunnel and knows it then you could have a situation where they don't have the respect for the fact that in actual jumping you may very well kill yourself if you don't perform your EP correctly.

That "oh shit" moment doesn't exist in the tunnel.

Otherwise the tunnel is nothing but good IMO
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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mirage62

One small point. Tunnel time is great and a wonderful tool. Confidence and being comfortable is an asset to a limit. When someone is really good in the tunnel and knows it then you could have a situation where they don't have the respect for the fact that in actual jumping you may very well kill yourself if you don't perform your EP correctly.

That "oh shit" moment doesn't exist in the tunnel.

Otherwise the tunnel is nothing but good IMO




And that's exactly why jump numbers are currently the best measure regarding progression...and to a smaller but still significant degree - time in the sport.

There are a lot of different elements that go into making a skydive successful, flying is only one.

As to the 'judgement' comment - judgement comes from experience IMO.

The more time in the saddle, the more you see & learn. What works and what doesn't...and why.

Then taking that knowledge a step further by methodically patterning what's shown to be successful.

When is it a good time to push to the limit & when is it better to hold back.

Information gained by actual experience is a valuable tool, the more tools you have the better your judgement tends to be.

You can usually spot someone with good judgement by the way they use their brains more than their balls.






...that and they don't have a limp! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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And that's exactly why jump numbers are currently the best measure regarding progression...and to a smaller but still significant degree - time in the sport.



It's a two-fold approach, with jump numbers being the fist aspect, and the conservative expectations being the second.

Let's look at camera flying. The 'powers that be' have deemed that you should have 200 jumps before putting on a camera. The '200' part accounts for the jump numbers, and the 'before jumping a camera' accounts for the conservative expectations, meaning that a majority of jumpers should be able to handle jumping a camera at that point.

If you look at jump numbers, and say that Jimmy has 100 jumps, and that 'a few' people with 100 jumps have been able to safely jump a Velocity at a moderate WL, then you're not being conservative with your expectations, and you cannot expect a good outcome in that case.

Even if you would suggest Jimmy jump a canopy that 50% of people with 100 jumps could be safe on, you're still not using the jump numbers correctly. You need to look for something that has an 80% or 90% success rate for people with 100 jumps, and then you're working with correct expectations.


These threads are always fun because it's the people with lower jump numbers, like the numbers that stand to be effected by jump number related limitation who think that there has to 'a better way'. Meanwhile, the guys with numbers high enough to be beyond any of those limitations seem to think that jump numbers aren't such a bad way to measure. The main difference being the high-time guy has existed as a jumper with 100 or 200 jumps AND a jumper with 1000 or 2000 jumps, while the low time guy lacks the real world experience and insight of spending time in both pairs of shoes.

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offaxis


That said free fall is only half the skydive. I'm stating the obvious here but there is a huge difference between flying your body and flying your canopy.

A progression model that disassociated free fall from canopy work would be a good place to start.

It would be nice to see the USPA incorporate the fact that wind tunnels are great teaching tools. They are the video game version of skydiving but it should count for something.



Tunnel flight doesn't come close to simulating "half" of a skydive! There is much, much more which must be mastered! Here is an incomplete ist of the tasks which comprise a skydive. All of this NON-tunnel stuff is why we continue to use jump numbers as a tool.

When to get on the plane... and when to sit for a while.
How to "dress for success".
How to gear-up correctly.
How to conduct gear checks.
How to load the plane for safe flight to altitude and smooth exits.
How to spot, how to spot, how to spot.
Exit separation.
How to climb out.
How to fly the exit, how to fly the exit, how to fly the exit.
.......insert tunnel time here.....
Altitude awareness.
Tracking.
Stable deployment.
Canopy assessment and management (that may just be kicking out of line twists, or it may be Emergency Procedures).
Navigation to DZ.
Traffic management.
Wind assessment.
Canopy pattern with traffic management.
Flare and landing.

The reason that we don't disassociate freefall from canopy work in the training progression, is that while you can have a safe canopy jump without freefall, you cannot have a safe freefall jump without canopy.

Think about where in the skydive injuries most injuries occur and what skills are needed to avoid those deaths. Clearly those skills before and after freefall are CRITICAL to ensuring the safety of the jumper and others.

Some of those skills simply require experience to acquire (see the first task on the list as an example).

If you are so convinced that a progression path should be created which spearates freefall and canopy.... write it and submit it to USPA for consideration.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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davelepka

These threads are always fun because it's the people with lower jump numbers, like the numbers that stand to be effected by jump number related limitation who think that there has to 'a better way'. Meanwhile, the guys with numbers high enough to be beyond any of those limitations seem to think that jump numbers aren't such a bad way to measure. The main difference being the high-time guy has existed as a jumper with 100 or 200 jumps AND a jumper with 1000 or 2000 jumps, while the low time guy lacks the real world experience and insight of spending time in both pairs of shoes.



Whilst I think that jump numbers are a good starting point, beyond those minimums there is no substitute for knowing your own limits and having the good sense to realise what you can/can't handle. You will always get people who think the rules should not apply to them. Unfortunately, they tend to be the very people the rules were created for in the first place... :S
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
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« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
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