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Marisan

HP From an Old Fart

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Thanks for you post. It shows that you have no clue as to what's being discussed. Either that or you're choosing to turn blind ears to it. I dunno which.

Care to comment on the topic at hand?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Now you make a flippant remark?


Flippant? OK
Sarcastic? Yes.
Not a lot of people put much credence in a sample of one.



You're certainly right that my n=1 is not statistically significant. It is however better than a sample of 0. I also looked through Blue Skies and found the same PD ad showing the entire range. And that was it for canopy ads.

My point is that I don't think the assertion that the manufacturers or dealers are pushing the very HP canopies because they're sexy is correct. My, admittedly minimal, research backs that up.

The point is that if people want to fly HP canopies without the training, they WILL get hold of them one way or another - I don't believe that step can be controlled.

I believe that we should be doing is trying to ensure that unsafe pilots do not get to FLY their canopies and, longer term, to change the culture to a point where how well a person flies is more important than what they fly.

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The point is that if people want to fly HP canopies without the training, they WILL get hold of them one way or another - I don't believe that step can be controlled.


You're right about that, agreed. I don't think "control" is the issue here. I think that's a little to harsh. I think instilling a sense of safety in our youngsters coupled with some honest self-evaluation and common sense in the more experienced would go a long way without that nasty "control" word.

Unfortunately, honest self-evaluation and common sense is not in vogue at this time amongst the younger people.*

That goes along with your....
"...change the culture to a point where how well a "person flies is more important than what they fly."
...and that's good stuff, too if you can figure some way to quantify "well". Does that mean you fly and don't die for X number of jumps or years? You hit a target every time? You swoop successfully X number of times? I dunno.

Therein lies the answer...changing the general mindset. But nobody yet knows how to do it accomplish that. What ever happens, it's not going to be short and sweet. It's going to take time and a lot of it.

In the meantime, we, individually could help by instilling a sense of safety and self-preservation in the youngsters and hopefully some of it will stick after the bozos fill their heads with Mad Skillz glory.

Ignore the bit about manufacturers if you like. In the big scheme of things, you are right, there are more relevant issues at hand. It was used as an example on just one part, not the entire part, of the madness of the "fly the fastest, most radical and be a hero" mindset.....

The OP raised the point that not building and selling the hot rods would accomplish that. One can't deny that, right? Is it the right thing to do? Can it even work out that way? Not likely but it is a solution...just not an acceptable one...particularly to those who already fly the hot rods, those who want to fly hot rods and those who build and sell the hot rods.

As for your comments about that, a simple "I don't see that" would have sufficed as opposed to your coming across as, in paraphrase, "you're wrong because I looked at one book" approach.




*I can see it coming from miles away.
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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still trolling bill!? i'd love to have them mad skillz you obviously posses, identifying "foolish pilots" over their postings.

maybe you should step down from your moderator-job, because, you're not doing it right.. ;)
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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From Marison:
For all those people that have sent me their ideas by PM.
There are some really good ones.
Can I ask you to post them on this thread so we can get some discussion going.


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From Calvin19 (Post# 225):
A simple canopy progression license, required independent of skydiving licenses, but cannot progress to a higher loading until these are demonstrated. They can have the A/B/C/D scale as long as that does not get too confusing. (Canopy Pilot A,B,C, or D[unlimited])



A few have objected to having canopy progression rules and the reasoning for it, generally, has been "freedom to do what I want", or words to that affect.

Some have objected to the issue by saying, "name one sport that doesn't encourage high performance" or words to that affect.

I'll throw out for you consideration and discussion....
(snide remarks need not apply)

Yes, many sports involving high performance do exactly that. However, many of those sports do it in a controlled manner. They have rules for progressing through the ranks. We, on the other hand, have no rules for progression. The best we have at present is a dependence on the members to police that progression to high performance.

I'll use racing as an example of the differences,,'

Every sanctioning body has rules on what you can use at any given level. You want to race in Class X, you must abide by the rules for that class and those rules include..
Body type
Frame type
Engine size and/or horsepower
...to name a couple.

Even the big boys have limits in racing. Take note of restrictor plates at some tracks.

Some sanctioning bodies require a license to race that class and those licenses are only issued after the driver has proved himself by some level of success at lower levels of racing.

Little Rich-Kid Johnny can go out and buy himself a Winston Cup car, yes. He won't get on the track with the big boys until he goes through the licensing requirements....and that includes some experience at lower levels of racing.

We, on the other hand, are different. Little Rich-Kid Johnny can go out and buy himself a Velo 99 without even having a license yet and some DZ somewhere will let him jump it. Unbelievable but true. Granted, that is a worst-case scenario but the point is that it's possible. Unfortunately, similar scenarios happen all too often that people buy into that "Winston Cup car" of a canopy without the needed skill sets and wind up getting hurt.


So, IMO, Calvin's suggestion (Post 225) is worthy of serious consideration and the B-License canopy checklist is a step in the right direction.

Even better is a step forward by all of us in being more diligent in guiding Little Johnny to a more conservative approach to high performance. It can be done without rules. The sad part is that it won't happen without rules.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Unfortunately, honest self-evaluation and common sense is not in vogue at this time amongst the younger people.



Yep - totally agree.

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Does that mean you fly and don't die for X number of jumps or years? You hit a target every time? You swoop successfully X number of times? I dunno.



I think that in most cases there are warning signs before someone hooks in or takes out another jumper. Take Sangi for example - there was plenty of time for people to see that something was not right without any need for "tests". What it does take is:

a. someone to actively monitor people under canopy
b. someone to take action where it is warranted

To my knowledge these are the steps that have been taken at some of the most prestigious DZs in the US, such as Skydive Arizona and Perris where Bryan Burke and Dan BC are really trying to do their bit.

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Therein lies the answer...changing the general mindset. But nobody yet knows how to do it accomplish that. What ever happens, it's not going to be short and sweet. It's going to take time and a lot of it.

In the meantime, we, individually could help by instilling a sense of safety and self-preservation in the youngsters and hopefully some of it will stick after the bozos fill their heads with Mad Skillz glory.



Again - totally agree.

Quote

As for your comments about that, a simple "I don't see that" would have sufficed as opposed to your coming across as, in paraphrase, "you're wrong because I looked at one book" approach.



If that's how it came across I am not surprised you took issue with it! Sorry about that.

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So, IMO, Calvin's suggestion (Post 225) is worthy of serious consideration and the B-License canopy checklist is a step in the right direction.



Here was what I wrote:

A simple canopy progression license, required independent of skydiving licenses, but cannot progress to a higher loading until these are demonstrated. They can have the A/B/C/D scale as long as that does not get too confusing. (Canopy Pilot A,B,C, or D[unlimited])

A- up to 1/1 loading: demonstrate full stalls on risers and brakes, full control input porpoising, coordinated wingovers, spirals to recover to a heading, patterns to a spot landing. 100' square must be able to show good judgement in landing patterns and traffic. flight and patterns and landings on rears, etc.

B- up to 1.5/1 loading: All the above (not rear landings) redone at 1.5/1 plus intro to accelerated landings,

C-up to 2/1 loading: All the above at 2/1 loading plus advanced canopy course AND swooping course if wanted. (can't swoop without)

D-2.5/1 to unlimited: All above at 2.5/1 loading plus advanced swooping course.


Know there are a lot of problems with this progression as well as implementing it.

Also, I do not agree with implementing a mandatory canopy progression.
Besides, you will never be able to do it outside the USPA. Like you said, people will just go to another non-uspa dropzone.

Encouraging the FAA to get involved in any way is the worst idea in skydiving. It would be like letting the rattle snake play in your pants while you take a jog. And they are not going to get involved for a reason that causes less than 31% of fatalities. Skydiving is dangerous, and they let us have fun anyway.

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>>At the same time a foolish pilot has been given more tools to hurt himself, which
>>happens all too frequently. And even though we can nowadays identify the people
>>who are foolish, most are immune to being told that. (Witness the comments in this
>>very thread.)

>still trolling bill!? i'd love to have them mad skillz . . .

Case in point.

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still trolling bill!? i'd love to have them mad skillz you obviously posses, identifying "foolish pilots" over their postings.

maybe you should step down from your moderator-job, because, you're not doing it right.. ;)



Can I please appeal to you to stop this childish bullshit?

If you have nothing constructive to say then please take it to PM or, better still, just shut the fuck up.

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still trolling bill!? i'd love to have them mad skillz you obviously posses, identifying "foolish pilots" over their postings.

maybe you should step down from your moderator-job, because, you're not doing it right.. ;)



Can I please appeal to you to stop this childish bullshit?

If you have nothing constructive to say then please take it to PM or, better still, just shut the fuck up.



why dont you SHUT THE FUCK UP!?

bill loves to call people he doesnt know "foolish", like in every other post he makes; if that's not "childish", i ask you to enlighten me..

your post is as constructive and meaningful as mine in that regard, why dont you take it to PM? D'OH!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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What it does take is:

a. someone to actively monitor people under canopy
b. someone to take action where it is warranted

To my knowledge these are the steps that have been taken at some of the most prestigious DZs in the US,



IMO, that's what the S&TA is for. Unfortunately, not all of them see it the same way and some of the ones who do often get an override from the DZO...especially when it comes to the "cool kids" and even more often when it involves the DZ workhorses.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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What it does take is:

a. someone to actively monitor people under canopy
b. someone to take action where it is warranted

To my knowledge these are the steps that have been taken at some of the most prestigious DZs in the US,



IMO, that's what the S&TA is for. Unfortunately, not all of them see it the same way and some of the ones who do often get an override from the DZO...especially when it comes to the "cool kids" and even more often when it involves the DZ workhorses.



Seems like, after a rocky start, we're on the same page, Pops!

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It's definitely not ideal - but we're a lot further ahead (in terms of canopy skills overall) than we were 20 years ago.



Quote



Depends how you look at it, 20 plus years ago I was "swooping" a cross braced canopy loaded 1.4...

I use to always practice my airshow stuff, usually a spinning down from 2000 feet and burrying the other toggle down, to flare for a stand up.

1st time i did it at Elsinore on my then brand new Exalibur I went back UP 40 feet.:D

Saved the landing by pumping out the top end stall, but figured out pretty quick there was going to have to be some adjustments made.

"Old School Skills" saved my butt until I got up to speed with the new tech.

I dont think today skills are better...I think todays culture doesnt stess having enough basic skills before moving up.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Therein lies the answer...changing the general mindset. But nobody yet knows how to do it accomplish that. What ever happens, it's not going to be short and sweet. It's going to take time and a lot of it.

Quote



MY flipant comment is, no it wont take a real long time...we just havent reached a high enough death toll yet.

I remember Capewells, the Green Star Express, the blast handle, the twisted belly band...when each caused enough carnage they were addressed...life is just cheaper now than i was back then I guess. ;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Hi VB,
correct me if i,m wrong, but you seem to be taking Bills posts as a personal attack on yourself and your gear choices which they are most definately not.
You're jumping a very high performance canopy which many believe including myself and i'm almost certain many of your fellow skydivers at your home DZ is beyond your current skill set given your time in the sport and your jump numbers par-se.
I also believe you were jealous of Sangi when he started jumping the 107 hence the outting in the S & T forum, dispite him reverting back to the 129 Safire (ironically the same model/size as the canopy you currently jump) he still biffed in and now with the benefit of hindsight has seen the light.
Bill amongst others is simply trying to help you see the same light and avoid another possible but senseless injury/death due to these things happen to others not me mindset.

Since the Sangi thread which you started you've shown yourself up to be nothing but a hypocrite hence my suppostion of the green eyed monster thinly diguished as concern in that said thread.
Your posts since, though sometimes amusing don't add anything constructive to the dicussions in hand and it would be grownup to show just a little respect for those you don't know as well as those that you do.

You're formally invited to call me a Cee yoU Next Tuesday
or whatever publically on these forums or via PM or if you like to my face (address can be supplied), i can assure you verbal attacks cause me no pain impacting with solid objects does and you should have it in your own interests to minimise the likelyhood of the latter.
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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Even better is a step forward by all of us in being more diligent in guiding Little Johnny to a more conservative approach to high performance. It can be done without rules. The sad part is that it won't happen without rules.



Different people have different perspectives on what constitutes a 'conservative approach'. Some of them may be instructors with different levels of CC skill themselves.

As mentioned by another poster who beat his chest with bravado about the glorious past and how wonderful things are at his DZ(s), it is no longer his responsibility...

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I disagree though about bringing along the newbs. That's not my responsibilty. They got to bring themselves along for the ride...form their own groups based on gradual skill aquisition and dedication to the task. of course it suits some temperaments to have a gaggle of newbs but not me.
.... they get real heavy man...and dependent.



So, you have instructors with different skills and interpretations of 'conservative or safe' and some experienced jumpers who no longer care.

How can it be done without rules?

It's not sad that other HP sports (e.g. your motor-sports example) have implemented rules, so why would it be sad if there were rules regarding the acquisition and / or use of HP canopies? Or requiring the demonstration of specific CC skills before advancing to higher USPA licenses?

I don't think it's sad that the rules might be needed ... it's sad that it has taken so long for enough people to recognize and accept it. It's sad that too many experienced jumpers -- including instructors -- don't participate in CC training.

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in reply to "So, you have instructors with different skills and interpretations of 'conservative or safe' and some experienced jumpers who no longer care.

.....................................

Not being directly responsible is different from not caring.

Who's responsibility is it to effectively guide newbies through to a level where they are safe to make their own choices? ....I wonder?
....perhaps the people taking money for services and goods ??

of course most experienced people will help, they just might not force their help on you.
Got rules for that stuff havn't we?.

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Here is another one of your previous posts...

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DZ's I like to get to lately are very well run . I'm impressed . If a person turns into a skydiver at one of these DZ's they're getting old school wisdom along the way...and lots of it.



And my response...

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And their CC program is what, exactly? What are the requirements for CC training? What do they do to ensure that jumpers get the training they need?



My questions to you still stand.

It sounds like your DZ's have their shit together. What are they doing differently besides imparting 'old school wisdom'? If they can be a model for others, why not share their secret to success?

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in reply to "So, you have instructors with different skills and interpretations of 'conservative or safe' and some experienced jumpers who no longer care.

.....................................

Not being directly responsible is different from not caring.

Who's responsibility is it to effectively guide newbies through to a level where they are safe to make their own choices? ....I wonder?
....perhaps the people taking money for services and goods ??

of course most experienced people will help, they just might not force their help on you.
Got rules for that stuff havn't we?.



IMO, whoever is willing to take on that responsibility. So few are willing. I thought it was one of the S&TAs responsibilities but it doesn't seem as though very many here agree with that.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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IMO, whoever is willing to take on that responsibility. So few are willing. I thought it was one of the S&TAs responsibilities but it doesn't seem as though very many here agree with that.



I don't know why there is resistance to S&TAs being responsible for the Safety and Training of young jumpers!

It seems to me that it might be rather a good job for that role!

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