What the frick? Why the hell do so few DZs seem to offer AFF anymore, just AFP?

[grue 1]

Trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother, and they're few and far between these days it seems like.

Are they getting better student retention, better training, or just more money with AFP?

cavete terrae.

[Squeak 17]

grue

Trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother, and they're few and far between these days it seems like.

Are they getting better student retention, better training, or just more money with APF?

What's APF?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[grue 1]

Squeak

***Trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother, and they're few and far between these days it seems like.

Are they getting better student retention, better training, or just more money with APF?

What's APF?

AFP, sorry. I got it right in the title!

cavete terrae.

[potatoman 0]

Australian Parachute Federation ???

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[grue 1]

potatoman

Australian Parachute Federation ???

Let's not talk about them, they've taken a bunch of my jump money in the last few weeks

cavete terrae.

[Squeak 17]

grue

******Trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother, and they're few and far between these days it seems like.

Are they getting better student retention, better training, or just more money with APF?

What's APF?

AFP, sorry. I got it right in the title!OK What's AFP?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[shropshire 0]

Irrespective of the order of the letters .. What is it, please explain.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[potatoman 0]

From a previous post from bigun:

"AFP = Advanced Freefall Progression. Three tandems, then FJC, then depending on how the student did can move towards AFF Cat C or D on their fourth jump. There's more to it in the USPA SIMS."

Where I believe AFF is Accelerated FreeFall.

Why do 3 tandems? Sounds like a money making scheme to me.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[shropshire 0]

CHeers

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[catyduck 0]

At my DZ, AFP starts with two tandems. Then solo jumps are with only one instructor from the beginning.

Obviously I'm biased b/c everyone thinks their training method is best , but here are the advantages from the perspective of someone who just did the program:

-longer, more structured program (18 jumps) that incorporates AFF coach jumps--basically designed to get you to your A license instead of floundering around or getting lost in the shuffle post-AFF

-emphasis on canopy skills with each level, not just freefall. I had the A license canopy skills section filled out by jump 10 or 11, IIRC. (Well...except the accuracy bits, ha!)

-fewer new freefall skills jammed into each level => less intimidating, get more practice on each

I have the impression that AFP is more geared towards converting students (at least, successful ones) into licensed jumpers, but what do I know.

[piisfish 135]

This is the way I started 11 years ago, and that was perfect for me. Actually went to the dz for 1 tandem, did the first 3 the same day, and went back there for the 2 next jumps two days later

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[DocPop 1]

I suspect it's a money decision. More jumps, tying up fewer instructors.

Of course, it may be that starting people off more slowly could have better results - it would be nice if someone had some hard data. But I don't really know what metrics should be used.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billeisele 122]

AFP - it's a program that does more jumps that the 7 in AFF, somewhere around 18-25 jumps

it provides the student a safe organized progression program with more training on traditional belly techniques, diving approaches to a formation, some aspects of sit flying and extensive canopy flight training, at the end of the program they have or are very close to having an A license

we do it because we're building safer more experienced skydivers, the reality is that many or most students get out of the student program and want to go play with the "fun" people, we find them sit flying as soon as they get the A license, our program requires them to learn more skills which will hopefully stop them from hurting themselves and others, and the canopy part is aimed at stopping some or all of the stupid stuff people do

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[shropshire 0]

many thanks.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JohnnyMarko 1]

DocPop

I suspect it's a money decision. More jumps, tying up fewer instructors.

Of course, it may be that starting people off more slowly could have better results - it would be nice if someone had some hard data. But I don't really know what metrics should be used.

Agreed...DZ makes a lil more money, especially not filling up a 182 for an AFF...at the same time, you don't get people that totally f up their first AFF and know what to expect freefall is like

[diablopilot 2]

grue

Trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother, and they're few and far between these days it seems like.

Are they getting better student retention, better training, or just more money with AFP?

Economics is probably the biggest reason followed by the increased performance and safety of a tandem progression.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

potatoman

From a previous post from bigun:

"AFP = Advanced Freefall Progression. Three tandems, then FJC, then depending on how the student did can move towards AFF Cat C or D on their fourth jump. There's more to it in the USPA SIMS."

Where I believe AFF is Accelerated FreeFall.

Why do 3 tandems? Sounds like a money making scheme to me.

Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NickyCal 17]

Quote

-longer, more structured program (18 jumps) that incorporates AFF coach jumps--basically designed to get you to your A license instead of floundering around or getting lost in the shuffle post-AFF

-emphasis on canopy skills with each level, not just freefall. I had the A license canopy skills section filled out by jump 10 or 11, IIRC. (Well...except the accuracy bits, ha!)

-fewer new freefall skills jammed into each level => less intimidating, get more practice on each

I have the impression that AFP is more geared towards converting students (at least, successful ones) into licensed jumpers

As a current AFF student, I have to say that this sounds like a far better program! I definitely have the feeling with AFF that you kind of finish your 7th jump and you're left to it. Find coaches where you can, pay as you go sort of thing. I would love to have had a longer and more structured course.

[tigra 0]

Maybe the costs are different now, but back when I did AFP (which is what my DZ offered) I did a little research / cost comparison. For the student, the cost for either complete student program was about the same because those initial 2 instructor AFF jumps are pretty expensive. So, basically, an AFP student gets more jumps and more instruction for about the same amount of money and can finish up the program ready for an A license without paying for additional coached jumps.

I also think starting off with a tandem or 2 is a good idea because that first freefall can be pretty overwhelming and no amount of ground training can really prepare you for that.

[drudchen 0]

http://www.skydivechicago.com/Services/Student_Jumpers/AFP_Prices

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

NickyCal

As a current AFF student, I have to say that this sounds like a far better program! I definitely have the feeling with AFF that you kind of finish your 7th jump and you're left to it. Find coaches where you can, pay as you go sort of thing. I would love to have had a longer and more structured course.

Depends on where you do it. 'round here you go into the DZ's coaching program 'til you get your A. Near's I can tell they're trying to head off the new jumper blues and increase retention. You can still potentially get the new jumper blues after getting your A, in which case you should find a solo jumper or a small group, ask them what they're doing and no matter what they say (Unless what they say is "freeflying" or "angle flying") ask if you can join them. I welcome newbies jumping in on my groups, though about 80% of my jumps are tracking and the other 40% are belly jumps in which we fail to get docked up (That's right, I jump 120% of the time!)

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[malooper 0]

FlyingRhenquest

Near's I can tell they're trying to head off the new jumper blues and increase retention.

What are the "new jumper blues?" I can guess but I like being sure. Wondering if that's what I'm dealing with..

Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-Raymond Lindquist

[JohnnyMarko 1]

malooper

*** Near's I can tell they're trying to head off the new jumper blues and increase retention.

What are the "new jumper blues?" I can guess but I like being sure. Wondering if that's what I'm dealing with..

I got them and quit jumping

[yoink 321]

diablopilot

***From a previous post from bigun:

"AFP = Advanced Freefall Progression. Three tandems, then FJC, then depending on how the student did can move towards AFF Cat C or D on their fourth jump. There's more to it in the USPA SIMS."

Where I believe AFF is Accelerated FreeFall.

Why do 3 tandems? Sounds like a money making scheme to me.

Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

That's a bit harsh, JP.

Not knowing much about the course myself, I tend to think 3 tandem seems excessive. What's taught on the 3rd that couldn't be done on the 1st or 2nd?

[JohnMitchell 14]

drudchen

http://www.skydivechicago.com/Services/Student_Jumpers/AFP_Prices

You can get to your A license for less money doing AFF at our DZ, Kapowsin Air Sports. After graduating AFF in as little as 7 jumps, your novice jumps are $65, gear included. Coach jumps are a bargain, I feel, at $85. That's where you can do your dive to docks.