Victor Kovats

[JoeyH 0]

Victor died in China while He was doing training jumps for the World Wingsuit League competitions. While this may be a wingsuit BASE fatality, I think it is important to address. It was just a gust of wind. That's all. It blew him off course and he wasn't able to pull. So what can this fatality teach skydiving wingsuiters and BASE jumping wingsuiters alike?

Carpe Diem, even if it kills me

[nutellaontoast 0]

Fly further away from cliffs unless you are ok with dying?

Think this lesson's been covered this summer. Hopefully there will be no more recitations.

Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about

[sinjin 0]

dont jump to conclusions and believe media reports about gusts of wind and "chutes" not opening. They for the most part are highly inaccurate.

dont let life pass you by

[irishrigger 31]

Not another one!
What can we learn from this, in my opinion it is very simple, very close proximity flying is dangeous, and people are pushing the limits to much. i have seen lots of video's on youtube about close proximity flying, does it look great and fantastic, yes it does, BUT to me it is not wortht he risk, you cannot make a mistake or it is over. i mean some of these guys get with in 2-3 feet of obstacles and traveling at 150mph it does not take much to hit the obstacle instead of missing it.
The way things are going i can see that a lot of countrys will ban base and wingsuit flying, as there is to many fatalaties with them now, i think that is 12-13 in the last couple months alone.
this is the same as people jumping the wrong canopys and turning to low,under there small parachutes, everyone knows what the problem is, but yet people still do it.
and as long as they do, there will be continious post like this on the this forum.

My 2 cents

Rodger

[cessnasoloy 0]

Perhaps the reasons are incorekt ,
but he s dead !!
[

[gowlerk 1,909]

Enough of this. If people want to do this activity then that's fine with me. But let's keep the death announcements out of this forum.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 622]

I'm in agreement with this.
This and the rest of them are BASE incidents.
We get enough bad press without the help of the BASE fatalities.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

normiss

I'm in agreement with this.
This and the rest of them are BASE incidents.
We get enough bad press without the help of the BASE fatalities.

I'm gonna totally disagree with you here, Mark. My e-mail inbox is cluttered with requests from non-jumpers wanting me to train them to fly wingsuits so they can "be like the guys on YouTube". I like it that potential proxy flyers are reminded (in more than one forum) that what they do is EXTREMELY dangerous. I'm sick and tired of people flying into rocks, but I want to hear about it every single time it happens so that I can better inform my students and Coach/Instructor candidates what they are getting into should WS BASE be their end goal.

Just my opinion as someone with over 2700 WS jumps who has been doing it since the first US BirdMan tour.

At any rate, BSBD Victor.

Chuck

[JoeyH 0]

While it is a BASE incident, I do not know of one base jumper or proxy flier who didn't start out as a skydiver, and progressed to wingsuits in the air, then progressed to base and proxy flying. I feel it is very important to have base incidents in this forum so that skydiving students and such read about the risks before they go out and try to get into base and proxy flying.

Carpe Diem, even if it kills me

[normiss 622]

Fully understand the perspective brother, just not the venue.

Maybe a separate thread in wingisuiting for terrain/BASE stuff?

We've had this debate repeatedly and I thought we always came back to skydiving here.

It's getting hard to take at the current rate!


Blue Skies Victor.

I also just caught the video...Victor's last flight

[NWFlyer 2]

Six years ago, the owners of this site decided to split off BASE jumping into its own separate forum. You'll see that when you look at the old "BASE Jumping" forum that is read-only, with all new content on basejumper.com.

BASE and skydiving are different sports, and I do not know of one single BASE jumper who would claim otherwise.

The lessons to be learned are different ones and the risks to be assessed are different ones. Your average skydiving student, or your average non-BASE jumping skydiver (which, YouTube generation aside, is still the overwhelming majority of skydivers) does not need to learn the specific lessons of BASE jumping, until and unless they decide they want to take up BASE jumping. And there's a place to go for that.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[shorehambeach 9]

You can see him veer off and hit the trees. At 150mph it happens so very quickly.

Blue Skies Victor

[gowlerk 1,909]

Although all wingsuit BASE jumpers are or were skydivers they did not get all the way to that activity without finding out that it is risky. None of them would be saved by anything they learn here. A sticky explaining that at the top of the page would be appropriate in my opinion. By discussing these events here we only give newcomers and outsiders the impression that this epidemic of casualties is related to our sport and that the activity is part of our sport. It is no more so than hang gliding fatalities are. If your friend is involved in one of these incidents it may be appropriate to post to the Blue Skies page.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeyH 0]

gowlerk

Although all wingsuit BASE jumpers are or were skydivers they did not get all the way to that activity without finding out that it is risky. None of them would be saved by anything they learn here. A sticky explaining that at the top of the page would be appropriate in my opinion. By discussing these events here we only give newcomers and outsiders the impression that this epidemic of casualties is related to our sport and that the activity is part of our sport. It is no more so than hang gliding fatalities are. If your friend is involved in one of these incidents it may be appropriate to post to the Blue Skies page.

You have been in the sport for 20 years. You have the experience to have that perspective. A new skydiver, who has only been in or around the sport for a year or so, does not yet have that perspective. Most new skydivers see it as "Parachuting". To a lot of people, it is all the same. There are multiple proxy flying videos in DZ.com, all of which highlight the cool or amazing aspects of the activity. Nobody jumps up and says that those do not belong on this site. So when a fatality happens that wasn't out of pure stupidity or pilot error, I think it should also be discussed here. I only say this because more and more people are getting into skydiving with the sole purpose of one day being like the guys on youtube. So if they see the risks before they have to experience something like this firsthand (weather a personal friend or themselves), they might not ever take the risk to begin with. Not many people who are not already base jumping are a part of basejumper.com. I think that it is important to discuss these things where new jumpers can read it. I am by no means saying to post all base fatalities, but there is something to be learned from Victor. He was considered one of the best pilots in the world. #1 in his country for sure. So if a new skydiver that doesn't read basejumper.com sees this post right after seeing a cool proxy video, it gives a level realization of all aspects of the activity.

Carpe Diem, even if it kills me

[Bluhdow 31]

JoeyH

You have been in the sport for 20 years. You have the experience to have that perspective. A new skydiver, who has only been in or around the sport for a year or so, does not yet have that perspective. Most new skydivers see it as "Parachuting". To a lot of people, it is all the same.

Really? You really think that skydivers in the sport for a year don't understand the difference between proximity WS BASE and a 4 way belly jump? Where do you jump and what are they teaching you guys?

Experienced jumpers have a tendency to talk about new skydivers like they are toddlers. All skydivers, students or otherwise, are adults. If an adult can't understand that WS BASE is more dangerous than a skydive, they'll die long before they ever to the exit point. Probably by forgetting to feed themselves.

The purpose of this forum isn't to protect people from WS BASE. It's to provide useful information about skydiving incidents. If you feel compelled to post about an incident that you don't know anything about and a person you didn't know, then I suggest you do it on basejumper.com. They'll be happy to hear your informed opinions over there.

Apex BASE
#1816

[gowlerk 1,909]

Quote

I only say this because more and more people are getting into skydiving with the sole purpose of one day being like the guys on youtube. So if they see the risks before they have to experience something like this firsthand (weather a personal friend or themselves), they might not ever take the risk to begin with.

This is actually part of the reason not to cover these incidents here. We don't want to scare away new people before they start. Even if unrealistic videos are what first attracts them they will soon enough learn some realities as they progress. As Bluhdow says, it's an adult sport. We don't need to protect and inform potential skydivers from things that are not skydiving.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeyH 0]

Bluhdow

***You have been in the sport for 20 years. You have the experience to have that perspective. A new skydiver, who has only been in or around the sport for a year or so, does not yet have that perspective. Most new skydivers see it as "Parachuting". To a lot of people, it is all the same.

Really? You really think that skydivers in the sport for a year don't understand the difference between proximity WS BASE and a 4 way belly jump? Where do you jump and what are they teaching you guys?

Experienced jumpers have a tendency to talk about new skydivers like they are toddlers. All skydivers, students or otherwise, are adults. If an adult can't understand that WS BASE is more dangerous than a skydive, they'll die long before they ever to the exit point. Probably by forgetting to feed themselves.

The purpose of this forum isn't to protect people from WS BASE. It's to provide useful information about skydiving incidents. If you feel compelled to post about an incident that you don't know anything about and a person you didn't know, then I suggest you do it on basejumper.com. They'll be happy to hear your informed opinions over there.

You are right, so maybe a year was a bit high for my statement, so i effectively retract that part. But you should still understand my point. I don't mean it to "Protect". I mean it to inform the risks involved in the transition of sports because sadly there are a lot of brand new jumpers who try to get into things that they don't quite understand the consequences and risks, (like when younger jumpers downsize too soon and/or try to swoop and break their legs or worse) and that is how people get killed. I don't claim to know everything about the incident, nor do I claim to know the guy. I just simply stated that I believe everybody can learn from this, especially new jumpers who have the goal of proxy flying. I am also not being a complete dick about it, nor am I being a complete dick to the people who don't agree with something that I say. This debate, or lack thereof, is pointlessly stupid. I have put in my $0.02 and respected what other people have said about it, so as far as I am concerned, there is no need to continue any conversation on the topic. So I suppose an admin should just take this post down.

Carpe Diem, even if it kills me

[feuergnom 22]

sorry to disagree and to go with chuck 100%.

the net is full of cool videos of cool people doing cool stunts. and the cooles of cool is WS-BASE-proximity. That is the visual drug that brings many people to the DZ's wanting instant gratification... If they are not veering off to to BASE right after AFF/A-License they get the biggest suits on the market, sold to them by people who openly commit they are money-sharks just to kill themselves

Personally I think most skydivers do not have any clue how lucky they are to survive long enough to make eductated decisions on how not to kill oneself. so bringon the bad news and the gore



as for "giving the sport a bad name and driving people off" - you do not believe in that for real?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[FB1609 0]

I think competing is quite new in WB proximity flying, not sure it's a good mix to be honest

[basehoundsam 0]

Reminds me of the argument of Skis VS Snowboards. The line gets blurred more and more as the equipment and terrain become more and more similar. Since skydiving occurs around the world.... and the uspa doesn't have the last say everywhere.... I think many aspects of WS terrain flying and canopy-terrain flying are beginning to crossover.
And like it or not..... most people that come out to a dz to learn how to skydive these days are very interested in both Wing-suiting, and BASE.
Talk to any tandem master or AFF, or just listen on the plane ride up..... it's what 70% of new jumpers are inquiring about. Like all activities that evolve and grow.... the average "new" jumper is very interested , and should be informed of just what is happening out there these days with humans and human powered body flight.
I understand that some people don't want "Their Sport" affected or categorized with all of the WS proxi fatalities, but unfortunately the fact that we are all free-fallers and gravity pilots kinda groups us together. Its like being a traveling American, and trying to convince people that you personally didn't vote both of the Bush's into presidency.

Just my .02$

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[Bluhdow 31]

The risks of BASE and WS BASE are very well documented here:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List

Any adult who has spent 3 minutes researching BASE will see this list and begin to understand the risks involved.

Best I can tell, all of these "youtube kids" are straw men. How many fatalities do you see on there involving people with under 100 skydives trying to fly WS proximity? I've read through the list several times and can't recall a single example (doesn't mean there isn't one). If anything, low jump number fatalities were more present before YouTube...when BASE was more experimental than a repeatable sport.

Again, I think experienced jumpers have a tendency to blame accidents and ugly stats on new jumpers who are all about youtube, don't know anything, feel entitled, and think they are bulletproof. Okay...I understand that logic, but where's the proof? Everyone who has gone in recently was an experienced skydiver before entering BASE.

Apex BASE
#1816

[Bluhdow 31]

I guess my bottom line is this: the idea to publicize and discuss BASE fatalities here is a solution in search of a problem. No matter how much everyone hates youtube, there just aren't kids buying suits and climbing local antennas without going through the proper channels. Either that, or there are lots of kids like this and they have much better saftey records than experienced pilots.

There already exists a forum (on basejumper) to discuss these incidents. I don't think being especially vocal about the dark side of the sport will do us any good here. It's at best neutral, and at worst damaging to skydiving.

Apex BASE
#1816

[JoeyH 0]

My bottom line is: The purpose of this post was "hey, one of the best wingsuit pilots in the world went in, realize how dangerous it is before you consider jumping off of the eiger with 100 jumps and little more than an A license under your belt" and we are sitting here arguing over weather the post belongs here or not? Seriously? HE'S DEAD and we are arguing over post placement instead of accepting the extremely valid lesson that this post is meant to deliver. Fucking stupid.

Carpe Diem, even if it kills me

[gowlerk 1,909]

Quote

So what can this fatality teach skydiving wingsuiters and BASE jumping wingsuiters alike?

In my opinion, nothing that they don't already know.


After thinking more about it , and looking at other recent threads involving similar incidents, perhaps the mods are already doing the right thing. Let the thread go on for a few days and then lock it and refer people to the appropriate forum.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Bluhdow 31]

JoeyH

My bottom line is: The purpose of this post was "hey, one of the best wingsuit pilots in the world went in, realize how dangerous it is before you consider jumping off of the eiger with 100 jumps and little more than an A license under your belt" and we are sitting here arguing over weather the post belongs here or not? Seriously? HE'S DEAD and we are arguing over post placement instead of accepting the extremely valid lesson that this post is meant to deliver. Fucking stupid.

My point is that there are no people on the BFL who have gone in because they bought a suit and went proximity flying withought first becoming at least an experienced skydiver. People lacking BASE experience? Sure. But none of them were freshly stamped A license holders.

Again, I just think your message (while theoretically valid) is intended for straw men.

WS BASE is dangerous. Proximity is ultra dangerous. Nobody who has gone in was unaware of these risks.

Apex BASE
#1816