AFF student leaves plane without instructor

[mattjw916 2]

Remster

They are indeed designed so that they can be opened under load (that does not mean that they will let go under load). What makes them stay close is, wait for it, the closing mechanism.

This is precisely correct. Adding a load to the belt does not preclude the mechanism from releasing as designed. If they couldn't we'd have a lot more people burn to death while hanging upside down inside a plane that rolled over. The belt mechanism is specifically designed not to trap people in such a scenario.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[PixieUK 0]

Arvoitus

Are AFF students supposed to pull immediately if they're alone in freefall without their instructors? So by the book shouldn't it be automatic fail since he didn't?

Only on level 1 and 2. After that, the instructors are both going to let go of you anyway and you've already proved you can pull, so as long as you are altitude aware and stable, you can free fall until your normal wave-off height.
We were instructed to pull immediately if we found ourselves alone and starting to go unstable, otherwise we could just continue our jump as planned.

I was more surprised that the instructor was holding onto him for the exit for level 5. That was my first solo dive exit with the instructor following me out of the plane.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[wmw999 2,116]

That was awesome! And that student was rock-solid. Given something unexpected happening (i.e. WTF happened to my instructor???), he shows that he's absolutely in control and aware on the skydive, keeping himself oriented to the cameraman, and making sure that he hit all of his targets.

There are plenty of experienced jumpers who'd not do as well with a big surprise like that, and comparably (for them) challenging targets (e.g. "I didn't get in because I lost my helmet")

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[3mpire 0]

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This is precisely correct. Adding a load to the belt does not preclude the mechanism from releasing as designed. If they couldn't we'd have a lot more people burn to death while hanging upside down inside a plane that rolled over. The belt mechanism is specifically designed not to trap people in such a scenario

I am in the habit of consciously only threading the flat end through my main lift web when buckling the belt in a 182 or benchless AC. The reason is I want to be able to lift the buckle and smoothly slip out of the belt in the case of a rapid exit. If you have the large end of the buckle routed through your MLW, it could snag on your harness even after the ends of the belt are released.

I hadn't considered the situation in the video, but this is another reason why having the flat end of the buckle on the "inside" of your MLW is good. If you thread the buckle through your MLW and forget to unbuckle before you exit the jump master position in a 182, it might get tangled even after releasing the buckle.

That said, I don't think simply routing the buckle in the least snag-able way makes a hook knife unnecessary. Give the buckle a try once or twice and if you can't find it or you release and you're still hanging, a quality hook knife that can cut through the belt is obviously needed.

[JeffCa 0]

obatzda

how does it work? when are u "allowed" to remove the belt? just after takeoff?

In Tokyo, we keep our belts on until 9,000 feet.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[PixieUK 0]

JeffCa

In Tokyo, we keep our belts on until 9,000 feet.

Why? Surely even students would be fine to jump out and pull a reserve from even 2,000' in the event of an aircraft emergency?

We keep ours on until 1000', after that it's considered that most jumpers would be leaving the aircraft in the event of an emergency, not going down with it.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[rwieder 0]

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They are in deed designed so that they can be opened under load (that does not mean that they will let go under load). What makes them stay close is, wait for it, the closing mechanism.

What FAR or design information can you back this up with? Are or you merely making an assumption? In my much earlier life I was an EMT/Paramedic/VFD Fire Man, I have been on the scene where horrific car crashes have occurred and many cars/trucks have been on their roofs. I can tell you from personal experience seat belts are not easy to unclip when some one is hanging upside down in them. We just started cutting them loose with razor knifes. And that's in a car or truck, not a fling airplane with some guy hanging out of the air craft, even if it's just a couple of feet. Would you agree that all designs are NOT the same, or are you going to stick to your unfounded remarks?

Best-
Richard

[shropshire 0]

The ones we use are like the sailing shackles(?) (see image)... with a cord attached to the pin to make it easier to locate/pull.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[oldwomanc6 38]

Hook knives are our friends.

Most jumpers will never need one, but you just never know when you might.

I assume you carry more than one in different places so you can reach it if somewhat incapacitated?

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[excaza 1]

rwieder

What FAR or design information can you back this up with?

TSO C-22G requires that seat belts meet SAE AS8043. Relevant here is 6.4.1:

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The buckle of a restraint system shall release when a force of not more than 0.13 kN (30lb) is applied to a pull or lift release mechanism, and release mechanisms requiring a twisting/torsional motion shall release with a force equated to 0.13 kN (30 lb) applied at the appropriate moment arm relative to the axis of rotation, when tested as prescribed in 9.4

[JeffCa 0]

PixieUK

***In Tokyo, we keep our belts on until 9,000 feet.

Why? Surely even students would be fine to jump out and pull a reserve from even 2,000' in the event of an aircraft emergency?

We keep ours on until 1000', after that it's considered that most jumpers would be leaving the aircraft in the event of an emergency, not going down with it.

Don't know why, the rule was like that when I got there. I'm thinking it's less to do with emergency procedures and more to do with keeping us in place for the ride up so weight isn't shifting around and people don't fall into each other when it gets bumpy. I trained in the USA and it was 1,000 feet there, so I understand the emergency exit thinking.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[irishrigger 31]

Well first of all nice Job by the student, i would pass him on that level .
on a level 3(Cat-C,Release Dive)and once i am one to one with student(Level 4-7 this side of the atlantic) i teach as long as the student is stable!, in control! and alti aware! continue with the skydive until planned deployment height, then pull!

As for the camera Guy, i think he did a good job, he reminded the student to check alti and gave the pull signal! i have no issues with that what so ever even if not a AFF-I.
AS for the instructor,well that is a bit embarresing and def a case of beer is in order!

something simular happen to my AFF partner once on a Level 1. I was outside we had good eye contact with my buddy, exited and next thing poof, my buddy is gone. he did not forget to take of his Seatbelt, but his Shoe Lace somehow got wrapped around a screw that secures the bench in a porter. after jumping we tried to reinact that and could not do it, it was such a freak. however my buddy badly twisted his ankle halfway out the door and was hanging outside. as we were first out, the other guys onboard managed to pull him back in.
and my student for that did a great job and passed his level 1.

Rodger

[rwieder 0]

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Hook knives are our friends.

Yes they are!

Quote

Most jumpers will never need one, but you just never know when you might.

Ain't that the truth!

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I assume you carry more than one in different places so you can reach it if somewhat incapacitated?

One on each leg, and one on my chest strap, and generally most of my jump suits have one in the thigh area.

Best-
Richard

[Squeak 17]

the students like, fuck you camera guy, Ill pull when im good and ready. YOU'RE not my instructor

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[normiss 620]

Nicely said sir.




Nice one Squeak!

[monkycndo 0]

rwieder

In my much earlier life I was an EMT/Paramedic/VFD Fire Man, I have been on the scene where horrific car crashes have occurred and many cars/trucks have been on their roofs. I can tell you from personal experience seat belts are not easy to unclip when some one is hanging upside down in them. We just started cutting them loose with razor knifes. And that's in a car or truck, not a fling airplane
Best-
Richard

How many cars/trucks have an aircraft type rated seat belt?

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[rwieder 0]

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How many cars/trucks have an aircraft type rated seat belt?

I don't know, do you? How many cars have aviation type seat belts? I've done a ton of research on this subject matter. No one aircraft has the same seat belt systems, there thousands of different types of safety belts. No one has yet to say how the AFF1 got loose from the seat belt as of yet. Do you know, if so please share.

Best-
Richard

[potatoman 0]

Aircraft type can undo very easily under load.

I have jumped ships where they use a carabiner. You will NOT undo that bitch if someone is dangling out the door from it. Hook knive will be the only solution.

On the other hand, the length of the belt it connects to, is too short to have anyone fall out the door. Designed that way.

Thus I have seen plenty people forget to remove the belt/buckle, but, they realize this long before they get to the door.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[ParaStyx 0]

Remster

***OUCH ! why the hell do they use seatbelts? to be honest ive never seen anyone using them before.

Because, in a plane crash, if you are not wearing one, you'll probably die and kill others at the same time.

Also, when the plain climb to fast (Reach a certain angle), it will keep all at same spot.. Otherwise everybody will be pushed to backside of plain, and then you have all the weight in the tail.. Which mean the plain will crash.

[excaza 1]

rwieder

No one aircraft has the same seat belt systems, there thousands of different types of safety belts.

All of which have to meet the requirement I quoted above.

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No one has yet to say how the AFF1 got loose from the seat belt as of yet. Do you know, if so please share.

Someone opened it... Watch this video, they open fine with someone hanging on them.

[rwieder 0]

That's good. It didn't look easy though. The jumper best be glad he wasn't the last to exit. He would have never unclipped that belt himself. We used to always have someone at the door with a razor knife during jumping activities. Anything like that and the guy would have just cut it.

Best-
Richard

[CazmoDee 3]

I think he could have reached and released that buckle...Might have taken a couple of tries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=NEucbl1zLFg
You seem REALLY determined to admit otherwise.

I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys!

Muff 4313

[pottesur 0]

rwieder

I'm curious as to how the instructor got shed of his seat belt after he was most likely hanging from the thing after he "attempted" to jump. I doubt there's any way he could have unsnapped his seat belt with his weight on it. Does anyone know this part?

Best-
Richard

In Norway, you're required to have a knife in the plane. I don't know for certain, but I assume either he used his hook knife or someone in the plane used the knife. Or he just unhooked himself if that was possible.

And I just want to add; the cameraguy is actually a lady, who is now an AFFI

[Faicon9493 114]

I was on a jump like this a long time ago at my home DZ. It was a level 1 or 2 jump out of a Porter and I was main side jm. My partner forgot to take off his seat belt. The student made such a smooth exit that we really didn't miss him. He swooped down to us at the bottom end of the jump and when I caught a glimpse of him coming in, my first thought was "Where the hell did that guy come from?". It made for a good laugh later on.

[SansSuit 1]

Faicon9493

I was on a jump like this a long time ago at my home DZ. It was a level 1 or 2 jump out of a Porter and I was main side jm. My partner forgot to take off his seat belt. The student made such a smooth exit that we really didn't miss him. He swooped down to us at the bottom end of the jump and when I caught a glimpse of him coming in, my first thought was "Where the hell did that guy come from?". It made for a good laugh later on.

Would I know this individual?

Peace,
-Dawson.
http://www.SansSuit.com
The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving