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proky100

Economics of buying NEW rig

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I’m finally getting my own gear. I wanted to buy used at first but when I started to think of used-abused and played with numbers, new rig was making more sense. Each time I rent, it costs me$25 plus $7 at the end of the day for packer to do his thing before the rig can go back on shelf. With the amount of jumping I can realistically do in a month or a year, this puts it to $28.50 on average per jump. So, if I pay $7500 for new gear and sell it say half price or so down the road (if I will be forced to quit), all I have to do is jump it 131 times. I do not count reserve repacks since those are going to be my additional EPs. How often do you get to pull on that silver handle, huh;) I’ll be jumping the same rig all the time and that is another plus.
With my neck and back problems after few car accidents I decided to get Spectre 170 with Dacron lines (here goes 12 weeks of waiting). Wings container is on its way(40% off promo), PD Optimum reserve 176 is next. Just have to decide between Vigil or Cypres. My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can. He likes to give me hard time and that proves that he cares and could be trusted.
Spectre will be loaded at 1.1 to 1.14 depending on amount of pancakes I eat so hopefully all goes well.
I only have 16 jumps so far but by the time all the stuff gets assembled I hope to have 50+ and B license. So please for all of you out there putting 1.14 loading and 16 jumps together try to go easy on me. I’m not a fan of small high performance canopies and I didn’t buy one. I just listen to instructors around me and try to suck some of their knowledge as well along the way. Most importantly, I want to be safe and enjoy skydiving for many years to come

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cool.
Me, I brought a brand new Harness (know it fits and was the colour type etc... that I wanted).. then I put a 2nd Canopy and Reserve in - this alone will save you a couple of quid.. I also brought a new Cypres (cus they're hard to find 2nd hand).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Good decision! My wife and I bought new. Sticker shock for certain but that is one of the realities of this sport and we bought Spectre 210's. For now I'll be loading it at 1.2 but I am on a diet and making noted progress in losing weight so it won't be long before the load factor is down between 1.0 to 1.1. I've flown other canopies at 1.2 and that load factor is not a problem. I would not, however, want to go any higher.

We were on the boards and all over the net looking for used gear on sale. In some cases, the price of used gear compared to the cost of new gear was not appreciably different and I don't fault the seller(s). Hey if they can get their price, more power to them with my sincere compliments. Then there were a few used rigs I actually had for a rigger to look at where the cost of repairs as well as the projected longevity was prohibitive.

The decision to buy new therefore, was to begin with a "clean slate baseline."

Good luck with your new rig!

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.... My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can. .....



Seems sort of odd that they don't make a container that a 190 will fit in. I would go with a different company to get the proper main. But that is just me.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Yah, I decided to spring for new stuff too, and am loading it pretty conservatively (started off about 1.1:1 and am now closer to 1:1.) I'm not planning to downsize for several hundred jumps (if ever) so it'll more than pay for itself. I'm pretty sure I can just put a next-size-smaller canopy in this rig, if I lose much more weight.

Why so many car wrecks? Perhaps it would be safer to just skydive to anywhere you want to go!
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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dthames

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.... My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can. .....



Seems sort of odd that they don't make a container that a 190 will fit in. I would go with a different company to get the proper main. But that is just me.



Correction - I bought new and wanted a smaller rig;) (Wings have stock containers listed that fit 190-210's)

Anyway if you can afford new, great. I think there is too much emphasis on buy used, with the unsaid implication being that you will want to downsize soon.

My only comment would be at 16 jumps you don't really know what type of canopy you will enjoy and have been worth waiting to try out a couple of different models first.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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nigel99

***

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.... My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can. .....



Seems sort of odd that they don't make a container that a 190 will fit in. I would go with a different company to get the proper main. But that is just me.



Correction - I bought new and wanted a smaller rig;) (Wings have stock containers listed that fit 190-210's)

Anyway if you can afford new, great. I think there is too much emphasis on buy used, with the unsaid implication being that you will want to downsize soon.

My only comment would be at 16 jumps you don't really know what type of canopy you will enjoy and have been worth waiting to try out a couple of different models first.

I was being a bit cynical because 1.1 WL right off student status is a “downsize” and I am sure you will be fine right up until you get hurt. If you want to pursue performance landings I am sure you will be fine. If you want to stay healthy and keep jumping, a 190 (even if the container is larger) might be a choice you would also be happy with.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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I only have 16 jumps so far but by the time all the stuff gets assembled I hope to have 50+ and B license



The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or something like that. The rule of thumb is to buy gear you can safely jump at the time of purchase, and worry about what you 'might' be able to jump, or how many jumps you 'might' have when that time comes to pass.

Thoughts about used gear -

First off, used is used, but it's also inspected and repacked every 6 mos. by a rigger, and if you're smart it's inspected before you buy, so there is no risk in terms of the safety factor over a new rig. Keep in mind that everyone who owns the equipment is putting their life on the line when they jump it, and will tend to take care of it accordingly.

Another thought, you have no idea what you want. You think you do, but you just don't have the experience or exposure to the sport or gear to really make that call. Think of how much you've learned in your first 16 jumps, and those have all been on the DZ rental gear. Once you're out 'in the wild' and can borrow or demo gear whenever you feel like it, you'll learn 10x more about gear than you know now.

If you want to talk economics, it's just not there for buying new gear right off student status. If you can afford to lose a few $1000 on the deal, then I guess that's your call, but if you want to strictly look at the numbers you can't beat used gear.

(Note - comparing buying new and taking the loss on resale to renting gear for the entire time period is not the correct comparison. Nobody is rent gear for that long, and it's clearly the worst financial option)

You can buy used gear, all less then 5 years old and not with a 'ton' of jumps, keep it for 100 or 200 jumps and then sell it for 90% of what you paid for it. You end up with a rig for $200 to $400 total investment. You can buy and sell components, like the main canopy, for about even money too, so you can swap out canopies 'willy nilly' with little to no out-of-pocket cost.

Let's face it, you can also burn in a few landings and not really 'ruin' a brand dew rig with some grass stains.

Here's my main case for used gear to start - if it has any impact on your ability to jump to your heart's content (financially), then your money is in the wrong place. What's way more important than a fancy new rig is a pile of jumps in your logbook. If money is ever the reason you're not going to the DZ, or going to make one more jump on a given day, you made a mistake buying the big money gear.

So in overall economic terms, used is the way to go. Let someone else take the depreciation on the new stuff, and you just jump it for 'free' (more or less). However, like I said, in terms of your personal economic terms, if you can take the hit on the depreciation and not break a sweat, then that's your own call.

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If you want to talk economics, it's just not there for buying new gear right off student status. If you can afford to lose a few $1000 on the deal, then I guess that's your call, but if you want to strictly look at the numbers you can't beat used gear.


I live in Florida and people don’t know how to drive here. My neck and back is proof of it. I was looking for used gear but couldn’t find what I needed. Spectre for slow openings, Dacron lines just in case, not abused for ease of my mind.
Would use rig cost less? Absolutely. But it is a puzzle of components and you can consider yourself very lucky if you get gear you want or need with all the variables that go in to it. Your height, weight, shape. Size and style of reserve and main etc. This fits but that doesn’t. In my case I know there is no speculation about my Spectre or Dacron lines. I do need those. It took only 16 jumps and one hard opening to realize that. I just trust my instructors with their decision on size and WL.
So if I would be average Joe without injuries that wants to swoop one day my odds of finding something would be much higher. And once I start spending 3 or 4 thousand on used gear it just made more sense to spend few more and get something that fits well with components my body appreciates.
I was just really excited about getting my gear and maybe even hoping for WL approval here on this forum. Getting it approved by my wife was another story.

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"Learning to skydive was a financially responsible decision," said nobody, ever.

~

This is a really interesting discussion. I'm having a lot of fun piecing together my first rig (currently demoing a couple of lovely mains...I'm sure I'll end up buying whatever used 150* shows up, though). But most of the new/er jumpers at my DZ have ended up buying a completely new rig, which seems odd to me given everything I've heard from actually-experienced jumpers. So it is eye-opening to read the different perspectives. I guess not everybody's mental "rig math" starts with, "So, after my cutaway main lands in the Fire Swamp..." :P

I guess we all have our splurges. I spent a LOT more than I had planned on my reserve, of all things--it seemed worth it to get the size and model that I had already successfully landed under pressure (on not-my-gear, which was a little embarrassing). And my Cypres is new; that's the one thing I'm sort of counting on to have resale value if necessary (see above comment for my general philosophy/expectation).

I don't think that there is any more of an implicit downsize expectation in buying used versus new; no container is built for one size main only. And even if it were, you could change that with hybrid canopies, Dacron vs microline, etc.

I don't know. I am so in love with my rig; I want to have its children and read them bedtime stories. I can't imagine that I would feel any more strongly if I had gotten it custom-made for me. But if people didn't buy new, then I wouldn't have nearly-new gear to buy secondhand. So--yes! Keep buying new, everyone! And then sell it to me for cheap!

(*150 main: instructor recommended, WL .9 on a bad day)

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dthames

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.... My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can. .....



Seems sort of odd that they don't make a container that a 190 will fit in. I would go with a different company to get the proper main. But that is just me.



It was elimination game. I don’t want to go into details why I choose one brand container over other since it creates many strong opinions amongst all the folks here.
My problem was Dacron lines. Added bulk of these lines made it impossible to fit in container normally designed for 7 cell 190. Dealer called Wings just to be certain.

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proky100

But it is a puzzle of components and you can consider yourself very lucky if you get gear you want or need with all the variables that go in to it. Your height, weight, shape. Size and style of reserve and main etc. This fits but that doesn’t.



It took me about two weeks of casual looking to get an idea of what was out there and how much people were selling it for, and two weeks of seriously looking to find something just about perfect.

If Wings makes a stock harness size that fits you, I guarantee you would have had an easier time finding something than I did. (Mirage makes stock rigs for little people! Go, Mirage! ...if I could afford one.)

I'm not knocking your decision (or Wings), just trying to help out other smaller jumpers who might read this and worry that they're SOL. ;)

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One of my jump buddies who recently got his license bought a Sabre 1 with a couple hundred jumps on it and a rig from the 90's. Damn thing is practically new and he loves how the Sabre 1 flies. He didn't like its openings so much, until he had the rigger here sew a pocket into his slider. But he's actually looking to downsize to another Sabre 1 now, if he can find one. I can see where rig design has changed over the past couple of decades watching him pack, but his thing still gets the job done, and it's basically new. Due to its age, he paid less than half what I did for a new rig.

I'm a bit bigger and decided to buy new after not seeing any used gear for sale in my size after a couple of months. About the same week my order was due to come in, someone put a full system in my size up for sale -- a Vector with 10 jumps on it, AAD, all the goodies, for $6800. Go figure heh heh.

While my buddy's already looking to downsize, I'm not. I enjoy a long canopy ride. I milk my canopy rides for level fight and hang time. That's really the only time it's just me and the sky, and I want to enjoy it. So I figure I'm probably going to fly this thing for 500 jumps or more, and it'll more'n pay for itself.
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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Where's that picture of the little kid throwing stacks of money out the window... the one with the caption about how that's pretty much what skydiving is, or that's how you get good at it?

Yes, you want your own rig.

http://thedropzonediaries.tumblr.com/post/44000911223
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...Don't Get Elimated!!

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proky100

My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can... I only have 16 jumps so far but by the time all the stuff gets assembled I hope to have 50+ and B license...Most importantly, I want to be safe and enjoy skydiving for many years to come



If you read your post like that, it doesn't make to much sense does it?

Not sure what you were asking for when you posted this, sounds like your mind is made up and whats done is done. Cypres or Vigil, doesn't really matter anymore. You can probably sell the Vigil easier since it has multi modes.

I would have gone for a used system with a 190 in it if I could find one. They are popular, so it may be hard to find, but resell is no problem. Not flaming you, just my opinion.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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proky100

I’m finally getting my own gear. I wanted to buy used at first but when I started to think of used-abused and played with numbers, new rig was making more sense. Each time I rent, it costs me$25 plus $7 at the end of the day for packer to do his thing before the rig can go back on shelf. With the amount of jumping I can realistically do in a month or a year, this puts it to $28.50 on average per jump. So, if I pay $7500 for new gear and sell it say half price or so down the road (if I will be forced to quit), all I have to do is jump it 131 times.



Buy a $1750 rig and throw it in the dumpster after 131 jumps and you'll be $1984 ahead of the new setup you get half your money back on.

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My originally wanted Spectre 190 wouldn’t fit inside of container and my instructor told me that I’ll be fine under 170 so I have 3 months to jump and learn as much as I can. He likes to give me hard time and that proves that he cares and could be trusted.



His encouragement to be less conservative than is accepted doesn't matter when he won't be covering your medical expenses and lost wages if you break yourself.

Buy used gear, don't load it over 1.0 + 0.1 pounds per square foot per 100 jumps or down-size without the skills enumerated by Bill von Novak and Brian Germain, and you'll spend $1-$2/jump in depreciation regardless of how many rigs and canopies you go through getting to a size you want to jump for the foreseeable future. Being patient and negotiating aggressively can even turn a profit.

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You have your mind made up. No amount of data will change it. And that's fine...... But don't try to claim the math adds up when it does not.

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I live in Florida and people don’t know how to drive here. My neck and back is proof of it. I was looking for used gear but couldn’t find what I needed. Spectre for slow openings, Dacron lines just in case, not abused for ease of my mind.



There are more DZ's in FL than anywhere else. And about the Dacron lined main.... Even if you could not find it used and had to buy it new..... That does not mean you could not buy a used container and reserve.

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I was just really excited about getting my gear and maybe even hoping for WL approval here on this forum.



1. Stop trying to shop for approval. Especially here. You have no idea who any of us are.

2. Then ask that question, don't try to make a claim that you are making a smart economic choice.

If you WANT new gear and can afford it..... By all means, buy it with a smile. But the economic factors do not support a new jumper buying new gear for a first rig.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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You stated: You made you maths regarding buying a rig.
What you did not consider was, is on paper going to fly in real life. If you are comitted and know you are going to do those 130odd jumps, then cool.

Then on the real question, about the vigil and the cypres, there are loads of discussions regarding them, hey, on this very site.

I can give you the low down, but since you know how to make calculations......the decision on which one is pretty obvious, if it is economically orientated. If you want tried and trusted, go the other route.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

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Ron

You have your mind made up. No amount of data will change it. And that's fine...... But don't try to claim the math adds up when it does not.

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I live in Florida and people don’t know how to drive here. My neck and back is proof of it. I was looking for used gear but couldn’t find what I needed. Spectre for slow openings, Dacron lines just in case, not abused for ease of my mind.



There are more DZ's in FL than anywhere else. And about the Dacron lined main.... Even if you could not find it used and had to buy it new..... That does not mean you could not buy a used container and reserve.

***I was just really excited about getting my gear and maybe even hoping for WL approval here on this forum.



1. Stop trying to shop for approval. Especially here. You have no idea who any of us are.

2. Then ask that question, don't try to make a claim that you are making a smart economic choice.

If you WANT new gear and can afford it..... By all means, buy it with a smile. But the economic factors do not support a new jumper buying new gear for a first rig.

All I was trying to say is that if you take price of a new gear and divide it by years you could use it, it doesn’t look so bad. I’m not here to cause trouble and definitely not encouraging anyone to buy new stuff just because. It was a lot of money for me to come up with as well. If anyone wishes to buy used rig I hope they will find one. I wish them the best. I didn’t so I’m sorry. Instead of trying to bring me down, helping would be a better solution. Just because I’m getting my gear doesn’t mean I have to use it right away. But I guess that doesn’t make much sense to some neither. Safe gear I could depend on was my only intention. So this is my promise. If my instructor or I don’t believe that I’m ready to jump it I WILL NOT. I don’t care if it takes 50 or 200 more jumps. If my wife in any point asks me to stop jumping I WILL STOP. Why? Besides the fact that I love her, money is not that important. My family and health is. As I said before. I have 3 months to jump as much as I can and we’ll see what happens then. I can always scrap Dacron lines for a while and fit that 190 in. Maybe even used.

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I jumped 'like new' used rigs my first 10 years in the sport.

They cost 1/2 what a new one does, I knew they worked because they had some 'test jumps' on them ~ remember your 1st jump on the new rig is the FIRST jump on that system...>:(

I saved tons of $ waiting for guys like you to realize they bought something they really didn't want...or that this sport really wasn't what they thought it was & quit.

Not sayin' that's what will happen in YOUR case...then again. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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bit of an amateur question here but... is there any REAL drawback to used gear? I guess you cant choose the specifics as well and some stuff probably gets out of date, but I'd imagine since some people jump their gear a long time its maintains its safety and functionality well?

On the flip side, if nobody bought new gear, there wouldn't be as much "like new" used gear. Reminds me of people who buy a car just to trade it in a year later for something else...
You are not the contents of your wallet.

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bit of an amateur question here but... is there any REAL drawback to used gear? I guess you cant choose the specifics as well and some stuff probably gets out of date, but I'd imagine since some people jump their gear a long time its maintains its safety and functionality well?



Not really. The only drawbacks are that they may not have the newest greatest safety thing. For example, the used rig may have an RSL but not a skyhook.

Big deal? I'd say no. You may disagree.

The next big deal is fit. If you are an odd shape/size finding the right fit may be difficult.

The next is colors.... You may hate what you find available.. Some dolls don't like purple flaps with pink and like green stripes.

But as others pointed out, as long as it fits and a rigger blesses it. You are good to go.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Spectre for slow openings, Dacron lines just in case, not abused for ease of my mind.
Would use rig cost less? Absolutely. But it is a puzzle of components and you can consider yourself very lucky if you get gear you want or need with all the variables that go in to it.



Look man, you asked for advice, and I gave you the low down on gear. It seems you already made up your mind, so I'm wondering why you wasted everyone's time?

If you need Dacron, good for you. There are probably more used canopies out there that are in need or a reline than not. Check the box that's marked 'Dacron' on the maintenance form, and you're all set. If you bought a PD wing, you're also going to get the most comprehensive inspection in the industry, and they're literally going to fix every stitch that needs attention before sending back, but I guess you probably knew that already, right?

You need a harness? Any of them can be resized to your specs, and what you end up with is a brand-new, custom fit harness, that also includes (big surprise) a full inspection and (generally) a full set of updates from the manufacturer. Again, this must be old news to you.

I'm not sure if you think you're the first guy to start skydiving and look for gear, but you're not. It's October now, which means that most of the country is winding down it's skydiving season, and there is generally a glut of used gear hitting the market in the next month or two. People are selling old stuff, and getting their orders together to have new stuff for next season, but I'm sure that you've seen that cycle play itself out too, with your years of experience.

Have fun with your overpriced new gear. Have fun packing a brand new canopy for your first 100 pack jobs. Have fun watching it sit and not move an inch when you try to sell it because you think that someone out there is going to fit into your 'jigsaw' puzzle for any reasonable amount of money.

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proky100

Just because I’m getting my gear doesn’t mean I have to use it right away. But I guess that doesn’t make much sense to some neither. Safe gear I could depend on was my only intention. So this is my promise. If my instructor or I don’t believe that I’m ready to jump it I WILL NOT.



I understand prioritizing safety. I hope you can find a soft-opening 190 canopy to use in the meantime. :)
I do not understand why anyone would put themselves in the situation of buying gear they don't feel comfortable jumping. It doesn't make sense financially (are you counting those extra rentals in your calculations?), and more to the point, it doesn't make sense emotionally. Or maybe jumping your own gear is less of a big deal for people who can rent rigs that fit? I dunno.

Oh, yeah, the other benefit of buying used: much less wait time. :)

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