skygypsie 2 #1 September 26, 2013 Just curious as to feedback on a non USPA tandem rated jumper taking out tandems students, at a USPA dz ? Would you report it ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #2 September 26, 2013 What could possibly go wrong?The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 369 #3 September 26, 2013 skygypsieJust curious as to feedback on a non USPA tandem rated jumper taking out tandems students, at a USPA dz ? Would you report it ? Not sure what type of feedback you're looking for. I can say that USPA would put a stop to it or yank the DZ's group membership if the DZ in question continued doing it after getting caught.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
irishrigger 31 #4 September 26, 2013 Hmm correct me if i am wrong, but does a Manufacture rating not suffice or Foreign equivilant? I remember i brought a couple AFF student with me to a DZ, i had my USPA AFF rating at the time but NOT Tandem. and i was also allowed to take up my students and a girl friend of one of my students. It was not an issue then. however i also dont know why the origonal question, would this person have a tandem Rating from somewhere else? if he has no rating at all i will completly agree with what chuckakers says. Rodger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #5 September 26, 2013 UPT rated, but USPA app rejected due to inaccurate app & evaluator qualifications- membership requirements were outdated...has been doing tandems w/ handicam, regardless & USPA DZ management has allowed..calling it "just a paperwork formality" Understanding there is a dz operations 'gray' area for circumstances at times, but as a 1st time student jumper, way back whenever, would you prefer to have had an informed decision based on formality whether to decline the TI &/ or jump? What about possible circumstances to PIC, other instructors/ students, & licensed jumpers on a load per USPA/ FARS, if there was an unfortunate incident ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 369 #6 September 27, 2013 irishriggerHmm correct me if i am wrong, but does a Manufacture rating not suffice or Foreign equivilant? I remember i brought a couple AFF student with me to a DZ, i had my USPA AFF rating at the time but NOT Tandem. and i was also allowed to take up my students and a girl friend of one of my students. It was not an issue then. however i also dont know why the origonal question, would this person have a tandem Rating from somewhere else? if he has no rating at all i will completly agree with what chuckakers says. Rodger Irish, I'm not sure about that. The OP didn't mention anything about the TI holding a non US rating. I know USPA recognizes foreign equivalent licenses, but I don't remember anything about ratings. As for a manufacturer's rating being enough - I doubt that. Otherwise no one would bother with a USPA rating. I believe TI's with a manufacturers rating were grandfathered in when USPA started its program, but only because there were folks with thousands of tandems that really didn't need to go through a USPA course to prove their qualifications. Can someone clarify for us?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #7 September 27, 2013 He holds no other tandem rating- foreign, nor otherwise ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #8 September 27, 2013 This is what the FAA says on the subject: Sec. 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless-- (1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements: (i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist-- (ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and (iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. (v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 369 #9 September 27, 2013 skygypsie He holds no other tandem rating- foreign, nor otherwise ! That would be a problem for USPA. Care to identify the DZ? Seems that's the motivation. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #10 September 27, 2013 A TI at a USPA Group Member DZ must have a USPA Tandem Rating. Group Members have lost their group membership and members their membership for using non rated persons on jumps that require a rating DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 September 27, 2013 If it's a USPA Group Member DZ, or the TI in question is a USPA member him/herself then yes it is a violation.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #12 September 27, 2013 Yes & yes ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 October 1, 2013 IagoTI rated means the manufacturer trained you and certed you as qualified. USPA rated means you sent in your money every year for the plastic card. Just my opinion. USPA c. Tandem training jumps [E] (1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating. B. Compliance with Federal regulations [NW] 1. No skydive may be made in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations. 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems. (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless— (1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements: (i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist— (ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and (iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #14 October 1, 2013 IagoTI rated means the manufacturer trained you and certified you as qualified. USPA rated means you sent in your money every year for the plastic card. It's a little bit more than that. :) USPA Tandem Instructors have been tested on teaching skills and knowledge related to the ISP, assuming that the instructor is going to do training tandem jumps and sign off things on Proficiency Cards. (As to whether these privileges are useful or used all that often is another thing, and possibly a good area for discussion in the S&T forum.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #15 October 1, 2013 So is a foreigner qualified in their own country, not a permanent resident, and fulfilling the FAA minimums (500 ram air, equivalent master license, manufacturer training, etc) -- they are OK to do tandems? Those rules alone make it seem OK, but I don't know what else might apply? (I'm leaving aside work visas and such; we're just talking about FAA legality and ability to jump at USPA DZ's.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #16 October 1, 2013 skygypsie Just curious as to feedback on a non USPA tandem rated jumper taking out tandems students, at a USPA dz ? Would you report it ? I have nothing more than a manufacturors rating and I managed to stumble through a few thousand tandems without killing anyone. UPT demands that the holder have some sort of instructional/coaching rating as a prerequisite, so this person must have one of those. The real question is whether you are concerned about safety or creating drama. If safety is your main concern I would say relax. If you want to create drama, well then jump right in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #17 October 1, 2013 mjosparky***TI rated means the manufacturer trained you and certed you as qualified. USPA rated means you sent in your money every year for the plastic card. Just my opinion. USPA c. Tandem training jumps [E] (1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating. B. Compliance with Federal regulations [NW] 1. No skydive may be made in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations. 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems. (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless— (1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements: (i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist— (ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and (iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. Sparky As I recall, this has been a moving bar. At one time, there was no USPA Tandem Rating. After USPA instituted the TI rating, it was only required if the TI was signing off USPA proficiencies on the tandem skydives, not required if the jump was only "introductory". So, now the USPA TI rating is required if the person conducting the tandem is also a USPA Individual Member? The FAA requires that the "parachutist in command" "Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation". No requirement to have an ongoing relationship with the manufacturer, membership or other relationship any with private membership organization. When did the USPA change to require USPA members to be a USPA rated TI? Since I'm an Eclipse Tandem Instructor Examiner, the relationship with the manufacturer is a little sketchy since they no longer exist. The "keeper of the records", generally doesn't return any paperwork when you send him documents and money, etc. My process is to maintain records of all training, checks sent, and when the check is processed, to print a copy from the bank of the check. Proof that the individual has had the manufacturers course. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #18 October 1, 2013 mjosparky***TI rated means the manufacturer trained you and certed you as qualified. USPA rated means you sent in your money every year for the plastic card. Just my opinion. USPA c. Tandem training jumps [E] (1) Any USPA member conducting a tandem jump must hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating and a manufacturer’s type rating. B. Compliance with Federal regulations [NW] 1. No skydive may be made in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations. 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems. (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless— (1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements: (i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist— (ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and (iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. Sparky And having read the FAR, there is nothing preventing a person who had passed the rating to stop being a USPA member and still do tandems."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 35 #19 October 1, 2013 The DZ group member pledge requires all staff to have USPA ratings.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #20 October 1, 2013 DeiselThe DZ group member pledge requires all staff to have USPA ratings. There are non group member DZ's. If I have a Cessna, I do not need a DZ"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #21 October 1, 2013 IagoAll of which is conducted by a TE rated and certed by the manufacturer. I cant imagine a manufacturer out there who would have a TE ( in this country anyways) that does NOT meet USPA requirements. Since most of their 'clients' are USPA DZs that would be stupid. I can't quite figure out what you meant by that, but yes, most manufacturer's tandem examiners are also USPA tandem IE's, and give both parts of the course to the candidate if they are USPA members. Back before much of this was in place the USPA tandem rating was literally obtained with a $25 payment to USPA after being rated by a manufacturer (that is exactly what I did), but now there are some modest requirements. It just bothers me when the USPA tandem rating is referred to as a "rubber stamp" or is otherwise considered nothing significant. For example, a solo student can be on the same load as a tandem, supervised by the tandem instructor because the tandem instructor has the knowledge (rating) to do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #22 October 2, 2013 skygypsie UPT rated, but USPA app rejected due to inaccurate app & evaluator qualifications- membership requirements were outdated...has been doing tandems w/ handicam, regardless & USPA DZ management has allowed..calling it "just a paperwork formality" Understanding there is a dz operations 'gray' area for circumstances at times, but as a 1st time student jumper, way back whenever, would you prefer to have had an informed decision based on formality whether to decline the TI &/ or jump? What about possible circumstances to PIC, other instructors/ students, & licensed jumpers on a load per USPA/ FARS, if there was an unfortunate incident ? The USPA tandem rating is a joke. And pretty much ALL of the advancements in the student program the USPA is so proud of.... Started by NON USPA procedures being used. AFF - Not started by the USPA Tandem - Not started by the USPA Throw outs - Not started by the USPA Tandem progression - Not started by the USPA. I could go on an on. The USPA is not as big of a deal as they like to think they are."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #23 October 2, 2013 IagoTI rated means the manufacturer trained you and certed you as qualified. USPA rated means you sent in your money every year for the plastic card. Just my opinion. Disagree. The manufacturer rating trains you for the equipment, the USPA rating trains you to be an instructor whom is far more capable than a "meat hauler".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 October 2, 2013 pchapmanSo is a foreigner qualified in their own country, not a permanent resident, and fulfilling the FAA minimums (500 ram air, equivalent master license, manufacturer training, etc) -- they are OK to do tandems? Those rules alone make it seem OK, but I don't know what else might apply? (I'm leaving aside work visas and such; we're just talking about FAA legality and ability to jump at USPA DZ's.) My interpretation of your scenario says you'd be ok in the eyes of the FAA, but not the USPA.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulk04 0 #25 October 2, 2013 If one is a TI and not a USPA TI, what does he have to do? I think I've heard just make 1 extra jump but I could be way off?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites