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gregpso

hop and pop incidents

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jono

What is wrong with doing a series of H&Ps starting a bit higher and working your way down?


Nobody said there was anything wrong with it. The USPA A card has a 5.5k for exactly this reason, and there is nothing prohibiting a student from doing more.

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excasa
dont be a jerk, unbecoming. Obviously skydiving is not flying or scuba diving, but to imply that skydiving can not learn from other sports, is well, Stupid at best. There is alot that many sports learn from other sports and alot that many businesses learn from Other businesses. Take the parachutes we use now, are they round like when people first stared or do they share a similarity to lets say.... airplane wings, or hanglider wings????? Thats right, we as a sport should try and steal good ideas where we can and drop bad habits when we should.
YOU state that jumping out from 3500 feet is o show that it is no more dangerous than jumping out at 12000 feet, do you have any statistics to back up a statement? I submit that jumping out at 3500 feet, means that unless you can get stable and pull in 500 feet, you are actually pulling below the floor recommended by USPA for students and A license holders.
I dont begrudge you your point of view, but with little evidence to back it up, you have no reason to assume it is a better point of view than my own.
DWH
I wouldnt be surprised if you ARE jumping a round parachute LOL

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You're missing the point. Maybe deliberately.

By training at 12,000ft you're INSTILLING a learned behavior - that 3000ft exits are bad and should be feared.

That's simply not true. You want proof? What about the tens of thousands of Static line students that learned to exit at or below 3000ft? How many more do you need?

By instilling that behavior in students, when the shit does eventually hit the fan they won't react calmly. They'll panic, and just maybe kill everyone on the plane when they do - all for no reason.

Exiting at 1000 ft on modern gear is unsafe. Exiting at 3500 is not. It's just like any other skydive exit and that's the point. AFF students have to be taught that.

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dwhenline

I submit that jumping out at 3500 feet, means that unless you can get stable and pull in 500 feet, you are actually pulling below the floor recommended by USPA for students and A license holders.



You wouldn't be doing the 3,500 jump unless you passed the 5,500 jump first, where you already demonstrate pulling stable within 5 seconds. That Cat F stuff follows Cat E, where one jump involves a stable exit up high. So it is all part of a progression system. Also, the 3000' floor is higher than for other jumpers to allow for a bit of a buffer, even if the student breaks that floor.

Still:
I suppose you personally might argue that more jumps need to be done to prove that a student has a better statistical chance of performing correctly, and not just doing so once at each level. Or you might argue for some intermediate type jump, where the jumper does practice deployments 'on the hill', but then deploys a bit later while flat and stable as they are used to in their AFF high jumps. That might take, say, 10 seconds to pull instead of just 5, and should allow both a more comfortable deployment, and practice of deployment just out the door. That would be a reasonable intermediate stage to add, as long as the system wasn't geared to listing the minimum possible number of jumps in the program.

I'll still argue that 3,500' is sufficient, but won't totally dismiss your concerns, even if my first reaction is "man up".

(I remember in the early '90s as a newbie at a C-182 DZ that if I were doing a solo jump, if I were in freefall at 2800', I'd do something like throw in a backloop before deploying... because who wants to deploy way up high like that anyway, waste freefall time, and get bored sitting around under a big canopy?? [Legal pull altitude was 2,200' for me at that time & place])

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dwhenline

excasa
dont be a jerk, unbecoming. Obviously skydiving is not flying or scuba diving, but to imply that skydiving can not learn from other sports, is well, Stupid at best. There is alot that many sports learn from other sports and alot that many businesses learn from Other businesses. Take the parachutes we use now, are they round like when people first stared or do they share a similarity to lets say.... airplane wings, or hanglider wings????? Thats right, we as a sport should try and steal good ideas where we can and drop bad habits when we should.
YOU state that jumping out from 3500 feet is o show that it is no more dangerous than jumping out at 12000 feet, do you have any statistics to back up a statement? I submit that jumping out at 3500 feet, means that unless you can get stable and pull in 500 feet, you are actually pulling below the floor recommended by USPA for students and A license holders.
I dont begrudge you your point of view, but with little evidence to back it up, you have no reason to assume it is a better point of view than my own.
DWH
I wouldnt be surprised if you ARE jumping a round parachute LOL



I submit that if you can't is the very reason you should practice this potentially life-saving jump.

I do find it interesting that pretty much to a tee, the cons are voiced by relatively low-jump-number jumpers who were trained via AFF.

And I speak from a place of experience (sub 200-jump emergency exit). It happens far more often than newbies realize.
lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

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Hellis

******And I don't mean that to scare them but to show them how "high" they really are, and then you give them the real freefall H&P.



:D:D
I'm getting a good laugh our of this. Yes, it's a no-nonsense thread and I understand the reality of the fear but....

We in the S/L training got more and more terrified as exit altitude increased.

"What? Four thousand this time. Oh shit."
:D:D

:D:D:D
Yep!
I remember that too.
On the jumpun you keept hoping the plane would hit turbolence and drop down to the "safe altitude".

On the high altitude you got so much time to mess up :D

Exactly! For me, the more altitude, the faster the spinning and the more line twists on opening.
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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ryoder

***
:D:D
I'm getting a good laugh our of this. Yes, it's a no-nonsense thread and I understand the reality of the fear but....

We in the S/L training got more and more terrified as exit altitude increased.

"What? Four thousand this time. Oh shit."
:D:D



Agreed.
More time for a klutz like myself to get into a spin.:S:o
I just checked my logbook; It was on jump 22 when I finally conquered my spin problem.

:D

Damn, I knew there was a connection somehow....you were my spinning twin. Yep, I had a severe right-hand spin that, all of a sudden, and I have no idea why, decided to go away at about jump 25 or so.
B|;)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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billvon

>BUT practice can occur at 12K as easily (and arguably safer) as 3500 feet.

Interesting statement. Why do you think that?....; there's not really any increase in risk. The only problem comes from the student's fear of the exit.....



Strongly disagree. You get a kid tumbling for 2000ft it's gonna be a big problem from 3k. Practicing stable exists from altitude is a good thing.

And nope, the problem is what happens, not what the kid thinks about it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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jono

What is wrong with doing a series of H&Ps starting a bit higher and working your way down?


Exactly! If you can do it at 12, you can do it at 3.5.

But, let's not forget the mental aspect....low exits are good confidence builders. When the shit hits the fan, a low exit would be less problematic for you if you had the confidence that you can easily handle it.


Quote

The extra height......It about showing the student that you can safely get out low but as we all know, nervousness can do funny things to students so why not give them a bit more room for error until they realize its not a big deal and then take them lower??


Exactly...there's the confidence building. Good stuff.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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dwhenline

Obviously skydiving is not flying or scuba diving, but to imply that skydiving can not learn from other sports, is well, Stupid at best.


That is not what I implied. My statement was that the logic does not follow your examples, as billvon and others have already pointed out.

Quote

Take the parachutes we use now, are they round like when people first stared or do they share a similarity to lets say.... airplane wings, or hanglider wings????? Thats right, we as a sport should try and steal good ideas where we can and drop bad habits when we should.


Another non sequitur.

Quote

YOU state that jumping out from 3500 feet is o show that it is no more dangerous than jumping out at 12000 feet, do you have any statistics to back up a statement?


Sorry, that's not how it works. You are the one that claims doing a 3.5k H&P is putting the student at unnecessary risk. What's your justification? Because it's scary? Meanwhile we've got 65,000 people with USPA A licenses now who have all done at least one 3.5k H&P, more for those who learned using a static line or IAD progression. That's a lot of supposed danger. Where are the incidents? Should be pretty easy to find with a sample size that large, no?

Quote

I submit that jumping out at 3500 feet, means that unless you can get stable and pull in 500 feet, you are actually pulling below the floor recommended by USPA for students and A license holders.


Same goes if someone has a container lock, what's your point? Perhaps you should educate yourself on both the purpose of the BSRs and the USPA A license progression.

Quote

I dont begrudge you your point of view, but with little evidence to back it up, you have no reason to assume it is a better point of view than my own.
DWH


Yet oddly enough you feel your total lack of evidence other than "it's scary" sufficient to demand the removal of the 3.5k H&P from instruction. You'll have to forgive me if I decide to side with the more experienced folks on this one.

Quote

I wouldnt be surprised if you ARE jumping a round parachute LOL


Meaningless drivel. Besides, if I had a round then I could probably just get out at 500 feet. Four line check & clear air channel? It'll open.

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At risk of getting popsjumper all excited;)

You have significantly more TIME when deploying at 3000 feet from a hop and pop, than deploying at 3000 feet at terminal.

It is approximately equivalent to deploying at terminal at 4500-5000 feet, and please God let us not start down the route that we should raise those altitudes as well!

I'm not certain if you jump, or how many jumps but it takes you approximately 10 seconds to get to terminal velocity and this is approximately 1000 feet. So in effect you have 10 seconds to reach a normal student's hard deck from a 3500 feet hop and pop- that is plenty of time.

*Sorry Andy, explain it in altitudes if you like:D

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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wolfriverjoe

***
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do hop and pops have to be done so early in ones jumping career. Could it wait until B or C licence when one is more experienced. Have read a few reports re hop and pops with students,,,, including one fatality in Australia a few years ago.

Whats the hurry when it obviously causes so much stress to new jumpers ??

There is another curly question for a certain CI who banned me for daring to ask " Why no skyhooks on the student rigs " ?

Instead of an answer I got banned from AFF and set up by fellow travellers of being sexist .. when I warned female Aussie skydivers of the male predators at DZs (admit I used fairly basic language. but my intention was good.

Talk about shooting the messenger !!

I should go away but yes the answer is no I am not going any where



I don't know about Oz land, but here in the US, H&P is a requirement for an A license. For good reasons.

You are a fine example of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
You have no clue why they are necessary.
And you rail on about how dangerous they are (which they can be, done improperly).

And were you booted from a DZ for 'daring to ask " Why no skyhooks on the student rigs "?'

Or was it for insisting that skyhooks were necessary, the DZO should replace all his student gear immediately, and if he didn't, the DZO would be criminally negligent for putting students into "death on a stick" dangerously inadequate gear?

I'm perfectly happy "shooting the messenger" when that messenger is Chicken Little.

Not really what happened but you are entittled to your view. My main beef with the DZO was the fact I spent another $1500 when I returned from overseas (6 months) on tandems with the view to return to AFF. After I had spent the $1500 I was told I was no longer allowed to do AFF. despite no safety issues and the sucessful completion of 3 AFF with good instructor comments. How would you feel getting a dream taken away from you ( A licence) If I was a danger in the air to myself or others I would understand. It was I just asked a few uncomfortable questions As for chicken little I still completed 66 jumps over 30 years .. 43 solos. so I proved to myself I could do it. I have nothing to prove to others.

I never demanded he replace rigs straight away.. I just made the point. (I work in the legal area) that a Coroner would want to know why a MARD was not present if a student went in after cutting away at 500 feet. Seen many Coroners Court hearings.. know how they operate in Victoria.

I was happy to continue AFF with standard RSL:s. The DZO runs an excellent DZ with a very good crew.

They just found me too anoying. understandable
I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

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Greg, fact is if you we're banned from the DZ you did something incredibly stupid and show no remorse or effort to resolve it. DZ's are businesses at the end of the day and no one will issue a ban unless your actions are endangering peoples safety or the reputation of the DZ! I don't know the story, but I call bullshit on your version whatever that may be.

All I can say is this attitude is not healthy. If you really want to jump you will find a way to make it happen. If you don't... Then honestly what the fuck are you doing?

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The fatal flaw in your argument is you are basing it all on the "fact" that a hop and pop is more dengerous. Your arguments are all valid logically speaking if you first accept that there is an increased danger.

But there is not.

A hop and pop is NO MORE dangerous than a skydive initiated from a higher altitude.

If you FEEL like it is then you have a big hole in your skydiving toolbox. Maybe taking a few days and doing nothing but hop and pops would do you some good in that you can get over the unfounded fear.

Respectfully, this is such a basic skill I'm surprised after all that has been said you are still maintaining your original position that it should be treated as if it was actually dangerous.

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popsjumper

******
:D:D
I'm getting a good laugh our of this. Yes, it's a no-nonsense thread and I understand the reality of the fear but....

We in the S/L training got more and more terrified as exit altitude increased.

"What? Four thousand this time. Oh shit."
:D:D



Agreed.
More time for a klutz like myself to get into a spin.:S:o
I just checked my logbook; It was on jump 22 when I finally conquered my spin problem.

:D

Damn, I knew there was a connection somehow....you were my spinning twin. Yep, I had a severe right-hand spin that, all of a sudden, and I have no idea why, decided to go away at about jump 25 or so.
B|;)

The solution for me was so simple, I was infuriated no one shared it with me earlier.

I was the first to arrive at the little Cessna DZ, and the 2nd guy to show up was a senior jumper (not my instructor), who I had never really talked to before. He commented he knew I had a spin problem, and suggested the next time it happened, that I try temporarily going into a delta to stop the spin, then gradually transition back the the regular arch, and explained what the delta was and what to expect.

So once the rest of the guys showed up, I made my next jump, started to spin, took his advice, and in a matter of seconds I had solved my spin problem.:)
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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It's a Quigley dude,

Do it and move on....

C

You need help getting there, ask and you shall receive...practice for it, do what it takes to prepare, train, and train some more,...

But if this causes that much stress and anxiety then we need to re-asses your choice to jump. You need to prove to me that you can do this, pass or fail, it's that simple.
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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>You get a kid tumbling for 2000ft it's gonna be a big problem from 3k.

From my experience if you are going to tumble for 2000 feet (15 seconds) without fixing it you are going to tumble for 11,500 feet. If, after 15 seconds, you can't figure out to arch you're not going to figure it out in the remaining 40.

>Practicing stable exists from altitude is a good thing.

Agreed!

>And nope, the problem is what happens, not what the kid thinks about it.

Fear leads to bad performance; bad performance leads to safety problems. So what he thinks about it definitely matters.

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>Thats right, we as a sport should try and steal good ideas where we can and drop
>bad habits when we should.

Agreed. And in flying they practice engine outs very low - because you have to be able to fly a plane to the ground.

> I submit that jumping out at 3500 feet, means that unless you can get stable and pull
>in 500 feet, you are actually pulling below the floor recommended by USPA for students
>and A license holders.

Correct! Which is an excellent reason to practice it. If you can't pull 10 seconds after exit there is a serious performance problem that should be resolved.

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>What is wrong with doing a series of H&Ps starting a bit higher and working your way down?

Nothing at all; that's a great idea. You could also incorporate other stuff into the medium altitude jumps (i.e. one backloop, get stable and pull, diving exit etc.)

>It about showing the student that you can safely get out low but as we all know,
>nervousness can do funny things to students

EXACTLY! And a student who has never exited low before, who is not ready for it, and who hears "Engine fire! BAIL OUT! BAIL OUT! BAIL OUT!" has a very high likelihood of locking up. Which means that a) he is going to be hauled kicking and screaming out the door (which is worse) or b) will block the door, prevent people from exiting and cause a rearward weight shift as everyone piles up behind him (even worse.)

Best, therefore, to practice.

>so why not give them a bit more room for error until they realize its not a big deal and
>then take them lower??

Yes, excellent idea. It takes more jumps/more $$ but it's a great way to get used to low exits.

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Quote

You are a fine example of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
You have no clue why they are necessary.
And you rail on about how dangerous they are...



He did the very same thing ...that he continues (ad nauseum) to rail about - and use every "excuse" he possibly can, to re-trench, which is all he is doing, YET AGAIN here ...back when he got "banned from AFF" by TRUMPETING that the DZ's he was going to, were all also DANGEROUS, because they refused to put SkyHooks (what he saw at the time as THE only way to be correct & "safe") ON ALL STUDENT GEAR! ...Therefore, that also, made those DZ's student centers "negligent" - (his outright accusations at the time! :S>:([:/]), and unsafe.

Nothing new here to see (or even legitimately - consider) at all, from this moron. [:/]
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Not at you Bill.

I can't see the problem here.
If a student can't exit the airplane stable they should not have passed the other levels.
Here the "low" jump is usually jump 10, and that is a shitload of expirience compared to what a S/L student has when he must exit stable.

I as a JM has passed students on the "low jump" even if they exit unstable but remain in control of the situation.
But a unstable exit and pull while on the back is a big no-no.

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>To get my pilots license, we often simulated emergencies but we never put ourselves
>in a true make or break situation.



And that is exactly what is going on here/being practiced! The exit is after all, even PLANNED - the plane placed over the LZ (usually even "spotted") - and if done correctly, even trimmed/set up by the pilot for the student exit. It's not like the pilot is (or shouldn't be) actually puking an engine on climb, fighting to gain control, (potentially) pitching the aircraft, and then making the student bail out. All very real possible scenarios to occur though, and EXPECT if this really were, an actual incident.

Doing this at/from 12,500 completely defeats even any (and all) of it's intended simulation effectiveness.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Scrumpot

Quote

You are a fine example of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
You have no clue why they are necessary.
And you rail on about how dangerous they are...



He did the very same thing ...that he continues (ad nauseum) to rail about - and use every "excuse" he possibly can, to re-trench, which is all he is doing, YET AGAIN here ...back when he got "banned from AFF" by TRUMPETING that the DZ's he was going to, were all also DANGEROUS, because they refused to put SkyHooks (what he saw at the time as THE only way to be correct & "safe") ON ALL STUDENT GEAR! ...Therefore, that also, made those DZ's student centers "negligent" - (his outright accusations at the time! :S>:([:/]), and unsafe.

Nothing new here to see (or even legitimately - consider) at all, from this moron. [:/]


We are all aware of the issues and personalities involved. There are lots of fake bigginner sizing questions that beg for some sort of action as well...that drive me nuts.

Rest assured, That if someone is unable to perform the requisite hop and pops there are enough that see the wisdom in not granting him a lic.

Name calling, well, accomplishes nothing....


Except that episode of "Married with children," When Al teaches bud about revenge.....:S:)
What the f man, I was going to go off on one of my hlyier than though speaches, but hey it makes for good reading!

Just think of it this way, if it weren't for all the bizzaro ness this whole webb site would be a bore???

100 REASONS FOR A SKYHOOK Click here...

100 REASONS TO NOT USE A SKYHOOK Click here...


[url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chqi8m4CEEY] CLICK HERE If you want to SILENCE THE GUILTY!!!! [/URL]

:)


Scott, in the following posts, points out the joys of hop en pops, from his perspective, witch is excellent! :)
This illustrates some of the issues inherent in teaching students and how our attitudes can influence them.

If we approach H/P's as some sort of dire gauntlet that must be mastered, some of this can't but help carry over to the student.

If we prepare them for excellence, after all their performance is a function of our teaching and attitudes,....

we might expect happier and healthier students.

After all a student who is expressing concern and stress about this issue is after all just asking for help, kudos who saw this particular students concerns and addressed them in a caring and thoughtful manner. The rule change suggestion is just one students way of expressing their anxiety. I 'm glad some were able to see this for what it is.
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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