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gregpso

hop and pop incidents

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Fear of hop and pops from under 3,500 ft. Fear of jumping without an AAD. Fear of jumping ugly gear even if your pretty rig slows down the reserve deployment sequence. Fear of non-turbine a/c.

Where'd all the skydivers go? Hop and pops are the most fun and relaxing jump one can do. No pressure. You get to deploy in that mushy relative wind on the hill. You get to listen to the canopy open and the plane fly away. It's cheap. You still get a canopy ride. I don't understand. It's one of the totally unique experiences jumping has to offer.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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airdvr

Fear of hop and pops from under 3,500 ft. Fear of jumping without an AAD. Fear of jumping ugly gear even if your pretty rig slows down the reserve deployment sequence. Fear of non-turbine a/c.

Where'd all the skydivers go? Hop and pops are the most fun and relaxing jump one can do. No pressure. You get to deploy in that mushy relative wind on the hill. You get to listen to the canopy open and the plane fly away. It's cheap. You still get a canopy ride. I don't understand. It's one of the totally unique experiences jumping has to offer.




^^^^Very Well Said^^^^


;););)

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This thread caught my eye as I recently had a cutaway on a hop and pop: then I saw who the original poster was. People: irrespective of anything that has been said by others, the original poster just started this thread as he knew it would stir up a storm. He goes on that students should't do hop and pops yet on the Australian site Skysurfer a few years ago he said that students shouldnt be jumping ram air canopies, only roundies (!) I don't know of anyone who would jump a roundie these days by choice, and anyone who has will speak of the hard landings etc. If the original poster starts any thread, the best anyone can do is simply ignore it as his sole intention is to get flames: in a word, TROLL. He has left out in his rants the fact he had his stage one and two AFF paid for by a DZ and rewarded them by not going back and bagging them on social media: his dream of an A licence? LOL! he had no intention of ever going for it, he stated that on a public forum too. And last but not least the 43 roundie jumps: there is a big question mark over those. It resembles people for example who impersonate war veterans i.e. masquerading with medals etc.

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nigel99

At risk of getting popsjumper all excited;)

You have significantly more TIME when deploying at 3000 feet from a hop and pop, than deploying at 3000 feet at terminal.

It is approximately equivalent to deploying at terminal at 4500-5000 feet, and please God let us not start down the route that we should raise those altitudes as well!

I'm not certain if you jump, or how many jumps but it takes you approximately 10 seconds to get to terminal velocity and this is approximately 1000 feet. So in effect you have 10 seconds to reach a normal student's hard deck from a 3500 feet hop and pop- that is plenty of time.

*Sorry Andy, explain it in altitudes if you like:D



:D:D
It's nice to know that I've made a positive impression on altitude awareness on at least one person.
:)
You did a good job of explaining 10 seconds in terms of altitude.
;)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Turboprop

This thread caught my eye as I recently had a cutaway on a hop and pop: then I saw who the original poster was. People: irrespective of anything that has been said by others, the original poster just started this thread as he knew it would stir up a storm. He goes on that students should't do hop and pops yet on the Australian site Skysurfer a few years ago he said that students shouldnt be jumping ram air canopies, only roundies (!) I don't know of anyone who would jump a roundie these days by choice, and anyone who has will speak of the hard landings etc. If the original poster starts any thread, the best anyone can do is simply ignore it as his sole intention is to get flames: in a word, TROLL. He has left out in his rants the fact he had his stage one and two AFF paid for by a DZ and rewarded them by not going back and bagging them on social media: his dream of an A licence? LOL! he had no intention of ever going for it, he stated that on a public forum too. And last but not least the 43 roundie jumps: there is a big question mark over those. It resembles people for example who impersonate war veterans i.e. masquerading with medals etc.



Most understand that this is the case, and what he is trying to do, but often he espouses views that are dangerous in and of themselves for some (newer jumpers) who frequent this forum. Therefore more experienced jumpers must correct his misconceptions.

He (mostly) avoids the fine line of insulting and PAs, thus avoids banning. The PTB here are fair (more than), and since he has stayed short of that, he is left free to spout his uniformed and misguided views.

This is not SC or BF, where a troll may be ignored. People's lives are on the line.
lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

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billvon

From my experience if you are going to tumble for 2000 feet (15 seconds) without fixing it you are going to tumble for 11,500 feet. If, after 15 seconds, you can't figure out to arch you're not going to figure it out in the remaining 40.


You ignored the point of the difference being having all that extra altitude to work with and countered with a rare, extreme, non-applicable event.

But to address your "worst-case" scenario, I'm sure you've seen it happen the way you've described. I'm also sure you've seen it happen that the tumble was stopped. Why you choose to use that scare tactic to argue that the two exits are different, I don't know. My experience has been that the ability to stop it is much. much more common than the inability to do so. Maybe we just train our students better.
:P

Quote

Fear leads to bad performance; bad performance leads to safety problems. So what he thinks about it definitely matters.


So now, again, you've moved the goal posts. You talked about "the problem" and now you talk about "the cause"...two different things. And it appears that you are saying fear leads to bad performance across the board. You do know better than that. You can't even say that's true in most cases, much less all.

Nearly every student since 'Twardo started (a long, long time ago) has had fear...and relatively few lead to performance so bad as to cause significant safety issues.

Andy lobs to add court.....
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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oldwomanc6


This is not SC or BF, where a troll may be ignored. People's lives are on the line.


+1
True enough here and more so in Training and Safety.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Turboprop

This thread caught my eye as I recently had a cutaway on a hop and pop: then I saw who the original poster was. People: irrespective of anything that has been said by others, the original poster just started this thread as he knew it would stir up a storm. He goes on that students should't do hop and pops yet on the Australian site Skysurfer a few years ago he said that students shouldnt be jumping ram air canopies, only roundies (!) I don't know of anyone who would jump a roundie these days by choice, and anyone who has will speak of the hard landings etc. If the original poster starts any thread, the best anyone can do is simply ignore it as his sole intention is to get flames: in a word, TROLL. He has left out in his rants the fact he had his stage one and two AFF paid for by a DZ and rewarded them by not going back and bagging them on social media: his dream of an A licence? LOL! he had no intention of ever going for it, he stated that on a public forum too. And last but not least the 43 roundie jumps: there is a big question mark over those. It resembles people for example who impersonate war veterans i.e. masquerading with medals etc.




He might be just stirring up shit and causing problems here.
But the truth is he got at least one more on his side here in this thread that spoke up, and possibly several more that did not say anything.

And that is a problem.
Greg has never been on the low H&P so he has no clue what so ever what he is talking about, but he got at least one with him.
My view as a instructor is that if you notice a student beeing nervous about this jump you should first deal with the fear and make sure the student is "ok" with it before you board the plane.
And I believe all instructors do this, but this is big news to Greg because he is clueless.
And he managed to get people on his side, most likely people that has not done this jump either.

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THIS:




;)




Quote




Most understand that this is the case, and what he is trying to do, but often he espouses views that are dangerous in and of themselves for some (newer jumpers) who frequent this forum. Therefore more experienced jumpers must correct his misconceptions.




This is why it belongs here, what you just said is the most important thing about this forum. I doubt you realize the signifigance of what you just said. :)
But all in all doesn't it come down to the individual?

There is a big problem with all people and in any endeavor, not just jumpin, people read until they get what they think they need!!!! You can't save everyone in this condition but for those that keep reading and learning you might just save them and learn what not to do at the same time.

Censorship doesn't do a thing for learning.

I learned a thing or to that I had forgotten about students, it's just that his BS is pretty good at the moment.


Yes peoples' lives are on the line, but in a very real sense these inane conversations do in fact save those that have and can think for themselves. It's the very fact that this form of communication by others that take the time to correct or point out perhaps a better way that make this work! If you spend the time and "only" lambast the personality, then who is the one who is really hurting the student?

Thank everyone who takes the time to correct something that is controversial....

C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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I am not far off doing my first hop and pops as part of my AFF, first from 5500 feet and the second from 3500, I was getting myself worked up over it with fear of a tail strike by exiting badly and had a few other concerns that have been cleared up in these posts on top of what has discussed between me and my instructors. It has helped a lot to take away some of the fear and now am looking forward to it.

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DannyW

I am not far off doing my first hop and pops as part of my AFF, first from 5500 feet and the second from 3500, I was getting myself worked up over it with fear of a tail strike by exiting badly and had a few other concerns that have been cleared up in these posts on top of what has discussed between me and my instructors. It has helped a lot to take away some of the fear and now am looking forward to it.



Why would you fear a tail strike more on a H&P than on a normal jump?
Unless you are at a DZ where they don't properly configure the plane for low passes, the risk is exactly the same.

You say those concerns are cleared up, what cleared them up?

Not flaming you, just curious.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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>Why would you fear a tail strike more on a H&P than on a normal jump?

It's a lot harder to jump a "chunk" up high enough to hit the tail than to jump yourself up high enough to hit the tail. First H+P students get very excited sometimes and jump higher than they planned.

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There was a student that did get himself into that situation a while back at the dz and I am trying to run through everything in my head and practice the exit before the day to prevent it happening to me. the replys from the experienced people here like having less surface area on exit into the wind, and 10 seconds untill terminal where I should be stable by 5 anyway. It just eases my concerns.

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wolfriverjoe

***I am not far off doing my first hop and pops as part of my AFF, first from 5500 feet and the second from 3500, I was getting myself worked up over it with fear of a tail strike by exiting badly and had a few other concerns that have been cleared up in these posts on top of what has discussed between me and my instructors. It has helped a lot to take away some of the fear and now am looking forward to it.



Why would you fear a tail strike more on a H&P than on a normal jump?
Unless you are at a DZ where they don't properly configure the plane for low passes, the risk is exactly the same.

You say those concerns are cleared up, what cleared them up?

Not flaming you, just curious.

At the dz where Danny jumps about 8 to 10 years ago, there was a fatality due to a tail strike on a caravan. I believe it was the last fatality and so gets a little bit of 'air time' in discussions.

But since then a number of things have changed and as a result, there are very strict policies in place that are enforced at pilot, load master and jumper level. By the way in terms of risk at altitude, the policies reinforce safe and good practices, including exits at altitude, so certain solo exit types are not allowed.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Astute forum peeps have picked up on most of Greg's bizarre claims. You missed a couple though.

He says he works in the legal area. I heard he spends his nights watching security screens.

He says he warned Aussie women about predators. He actually made a comment about women skydivers getting breaks in the sport because of men who want to take advantage of them. Two of the Aussie chicks took issue and he tried to change what he'd said.

The man is deluded. He is a troll. His opinions are worthless.

But the debate has been interesting. I think H&Ps should be compulsory before A licence everywhere. 5k is for pussies. 3k or lower is more realistic.

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On the subject of hop and pops. Our dz has the novices practice the hop and pop exit during a full altitude coach jump. They do this repeatedly until they demonstrate the subterminal skill for this exit.

This gives them both the confidence and skill to perform this very useful technique from a normal hop and pop altitude.

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I now consider myself lucky having done static line, I dont really fear low altitudes thus balloon and chopper jumps are awsome. I had to bail out of a plane at 1900ft due to malfunction on about 50 jumps after that I realized how high it is. Let these guys be afraide of low altitude,;) more fun jumps for the rest of us.

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With respect, I disagree with you on several levels and you'll notice I'm an "A" license w/80 jumps.

My first jump tomorrow will be an H&P from 5K' I just want to get reoriented with my canopy, work some ideas out I was thinking about during the week. Then I'll repack and do the rest of my jumps "all the way up."

I also make it a point to make one H&P between 4K and 3.5K' a month and I might add a few more jumps at that altitude range. Why? To stay trained and familiar with this particular jump profile.

Now, I'll admit freely the two USPA jumps at 5.5K and 3.5K' respectively was not something I relished the first time...particularly the one at 3.5K. But I jumped both successfully.

Recalling from my USAF flying training years ago, we were constantly drilling Emergency Procedures and scenarios because having the training provded the confidence to quickly assess the problem and execute the solution with minimal time spent.

Simply put as others have stated so well here, these jumps are designed to help give the skydiver some idea of the altitude issues of getting out of a bad aircraft and that they should not hesitate. If I have to get out of a bad aircraft, I don't want to be "frozen" in terror NOR do I want another newly licensed skydiver to freeze at the door either. GO!!!...you either have enough altitude to deploy the main or "go silver" and get the reserve deployed quicker.

Skydiving is fun but it has to be one of the top three hazrdous sports out there (base jumping, mountain climbing and SCUBA diving in caves also come to mind). Every skydiver should keep it in the back of their mind (and I have the confidence all do) is that in any part of the jump, $#!t can happen and it usually happens when least expected.

Those two H&P jumps are there for good reasons or two quote an instructor pilot many years ago, "It's a tough program, it's gotta be that way!"

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Quote

Astute forum peeps have picked up on most of Greg's bizarre claims. You missed a couple though...

The man is deluded. He is a troll. His opinions are worthless.



And this thread was otherwise already, for all intents & purposes, pretty well burried. - Dead.

So, wondering then now with that said, and your own statements of how supposedly absolutely anything even bothered to be typed by the OP is so worthless - why you've taken effort in here to find this, and dredged it back up?
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Having been through a lot of other technical programmes (learning to fly aircraft, ultralights, etc) there is one thing that the "aviation" community (which I consider skydiving similar to) does right is make sure that the FIRST thing that is required is safety.

Getting an A license is a lot like getting a private pilot license. It does NOT mean you are an expert, it does not allow you to do many things other than fly; but it indicates you are safe in the sky. I feel an "A" is the same thing: you are safe in the sky.

Right now, if you put me next to the door in an otter and said "ENGINE FIRE! OUT!" I am certain I would panic a little. Hell, I remember the first C182exit I was like "holy crap 10k is low compared to 14".

So, I asked my instructors about the clear-and-pull issue after having heard a few students really nervous about it. They put it to me this way: If you can't get stable on exit, we will not throw you out at 5k. If you can not get stable at 5k you WILL NOT go out at 3.5k. And you will continue to progress with a coach until you can.

But, and remember I'm just a lowly student here with an opinion, before I'm released on my own I want someone to be able to say that they feel as an instructor that I am safe to be essentially alone in an airplane with no "mother" to tell me what to do and that I can exit REGARDLESS of altitude in a safe and expedient manner.

If we treat H&P's a lot more like EPs it makes a bit more sense.

I still de-arch on exit... therefore I will not be doing my low jumps for a while. It was put to me you can "practice" H&P's on any coach jump... just exit and do a practice touch and see what happens. Not the worst idea I've heard.

My 2 cents, mileage will vary, but knowing what I know of aircraft and the risk of incident (and need to offload weight which could be plane-saving and life-saving) I'm hoping I can learn to be out at 3.5k if i ever need it.
You are not the contents of your wallet.

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