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aeroflyer

Coach course cost - outrageous or not?

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I signed up for a coach course and the "fee" is $350. It seems like with a class of 8, the instructor makes a killing on it. I even pay for my own materials, they get the space for free... they are making $2800 for 2 nights and 8 hours' work? Am I missing something here?

I have seen another coach course at Snohomish for $175... half the price. Is it completely arbitrary / how much robbery the rating giver wants to commit? I'm talking about the USPA coach course.. Canada is even worse don't get me started. Thoughts?

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aeroflyer

I signed up for a coach course and the "fee" is $350. It seems like with a class of 8, the instructor makes a killing on it. I even pay for my own materials, they get the space for free... they are making $2800 for 2 nights and 8 hours' work? Am I missing something here?

I have seen another coach course at Snohomish for $175... half the price. Is it completely arbitrary / how much robbery the rating giver wants to commit? I'm talking about the USPA coach course.. Canada is even worse don't get me started. Thoughts?



Why don't you take the 175 one?

People will charge what the market will bear. Don't focus on what/how much the instructor will make--focus on whether you think it is a good value for your money. Envy is a losing way to make financial decisions.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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aeroflyer

I signed up for a coach course and the "fee" is $350. It seems like with a class of 8, the instructor makes a killing on it. I even pay for my own materials, they get the space for free... they are making $2800 for 2 nights and 8 hours' work? Am I missing something here?

I have seen another coach course at Snohomish for $175... half the price. Is it completely arbitrary / how much robbery the rating giver wants to commit? I'm talking about the USPA coach course.. Canada is even worse don't get me started. Thoughts?



I highly doubt with a class of 8 that there is only one instructor and no additional evaluators.

What's the breakdown of the course? Do they include the jumps (theirs and yours, just theirs, none), rating fees? Is the course traveling to the DZ or are they based there?

If you don't like what they're charging, take your money elsewhere. They will charge what people will pay.

I've never had a class that was that large for any of my ratings (coach, AFF-I, T-I) They were all 4 people or less and we had 2-3 evaluators for all but my coach course (which I did alone with one examiner).
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Does the price include slots? Including slots would be unusual.

The econmic "worth" of the course is ...... whatever you are willing to pay.

If it is a USPA couse there is supposed to be one evaluator per 3 candidates. In which case, the examiner is NOT taking the $2800 home.

BTW....Complaining about a lack of responses after 22 minutes late at night suggests that you may not be well suited to the role of coach. Being an effective coach requires both patience and a focus on the CLIENT, not a focus on YOU.

Good Luck
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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theonlyski



What's the breakdown of the course? Do they include the jumps (theirs and yours, just theirs, none), rating fees?



Yep, that's the key - does the one that costs 2x as much also include the jumps? I think mine was in the 150-175 range plus jump slots - 2 for me and 1 each for my 2 evaluators). That was a few years ago, and was taught by a local I/E, so there were no travel costs built into it.

The class was taught by an I/E who had another instructor assisting him throughout the ground portions and helping out with the ground instruction evaluations. A couple other instructors pitched in as in-air evaluators, with the I/E doing at least one of the eval jumps with each of the six candidates. That's a lot of working hours when you add up the total time spent for all of them.

And by the way, my class was a few hours on Friday evening and all day Saturday and most of the day Sunday. In 100+ degree summer weather. Trust me when I say that even if we'd paid twice that I didn't feel like anyone was "making a killing."
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Aside from the fact that a class of eight means paying at least two additional persons to assist in teaching...
Printing/developing materials isn't free
It's likely time taken away from a "real job"
Most importantly, it took your C/E considerably more than eight hours and two nights to become an Examiner (assuming your C/E took no shortcuts). Receiving a fraction of his/her investment in their education is appropriate.
If the Examiner you've selected is a good one, with a good course, the fee is well within line. It makes me wonder if I should raise my rate a bit.;)
If the Examiner you selected is a good one, the course will be much longer than eight hours.

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they are making $2800 for 2 nights and 8 hours' work? Am I missing something here?



I agree with the other that the cost is what the market will bear... what I would find outrageous is if this coach course is actually only 8 hours long. :S
Owned by Remi #?

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Are you looking at CSPA or USPA Coach Course? If a CSPA, I don't think that it is unreasonable.

Once you take the course, you can charge for your coaching fees (if you DZ allows it). You also have to remember the CE has to usually fly into the site.

The question I have is: why are you taking the course? Are you taking it to enhance your own skills, or to help out others?

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Insightful replies, everyone. I will decide if its worth it to me. I am interested in teaching students occasionally but not as a job, on some weekends. It is a uspa, no jumps included. There may be a second instructor, which would make sense. I appreciate the post about not making financial decisions based on what they make.. it might be worth it to me. I checked a few other places and its definitely the most expensive.. the joys of still being a student.

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Given your post in the other thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4564090#4564090

It looks like you're hung up on money. Are you trying to become a coach to make a paycheck or are you doing it for the fun? It's your choice, don't feel like I'm trying to push it on you.

If you're trying to make a paycheck on it, then eventually it will even out and give you money back, but it's still one of the lower paid at the DZ. I have made more doing camera and tandems than I have doing anything else.

I got my coach rating as soon as I could, even a few years later, I think I've charged maybe one or two people for a coach jump. I did it for fun and I liked working with the students. I hated when I was a student thinking about how much a simple jump was going to cost me, so I payed it forward.

Granted, I get paid for tandems and AFF jumps, but those are a whole different game in terms of responsibility and training.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I want to get it to coach skydiving club students, and not as a job, I probably won't charge them. I don't currently work in skydiving. I am a grad student and money is an issue, second time I'm considering the course. I guess I'm somewhat annoyed to have to pay more than anywhere else (I checked 2 other places offering the course.

edit: no jumps included for $350, it's two evenings (3.5hr/evening) + practical jumps on a weekend.

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it's two evenings (3.5hr/evening)



That *really* doesn't seem like enough time to teach someone to be a coach. IIRC, in my course we spent about 20 hours in the classroom, roughly half of that talking and watching how to do things, and the other half practicing ground prep techniques and safety / gear checks for students.
Owned by Remi #?

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So the evaluator will be working about 35 hours at the dz... two 4 hour evenings (don't forget setup and breakdown time} plus 2 twelve+ hour days at the dz. they also have to drive to and from dz, arrange lodging and be away from home. The evaluator also has time invested in prepping for the course. In addition, s/he has wear and treat on thier equipment, plus taxes, food, and travel expenses.

According to your math, the evaluator will take home about $70/hr before expenses. Cut that down to about $45/hr if they are paying another evaluator. Cut that even more for costs associated like travel, food, gear, ratings, now you are down to $35/hr. Now factor in the additional work involved that isn't done at the dz, probably 10 hours of planning, organizing, and answering emails that could be answered by reading the SIM, bringing it down to maybe $25/hr.

As a grad student, how much do you feelba professional instructor should be paid per hour?

My math is probably questionable, but my point should be clear. I have taken 2 coach courses, a cheap one and one priced where my instructor made money. Guess which one had the better instruction? Guess which one I learned from and which one I got just a piece of paper from?

If you are worried about the cost of a course, then you are focusing on the wrong aspect. You should be concerned about the quality of your course, not the cost.

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aeroflyer

I signed up for a coach course and the "fee" is $350. It seems like with a class of 8, the instructor makes a killing on it. I even pay for my own materials, they get the space for free... they are making $2800 for 2 nights and 8 hours' work? Am I missing something here?

I have seen another coach course at Snohomish for $175... half the price. Is it completely arbitrary / how much robbery the rating giver wants to commit? I'm talking about the USPA coach course.. Canada is even worse don't get me started. Thoughts?



So go to the $175 course. Or don't go at all. Course directors do set their prices, but it's only robbery if he/she take your money against your will.

In my experience, you get what you pay for in ratings courses. DJ Marvin at The Ratings Center is a great example. He's probably a little pricier that most course directors, but his candidates get way more than they pay for.

It's not about cost. It's about results.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Skydiving is an extreme sport. ...It's not for everyone.

Skydiving is a very expensive sport. ...It's not for everyone.

Most jumpers I've met, in my experience, have sacrificed their financial well being to participate in this sport. It's a fact that this shit costs money. What's the saying? It costs all the money you have and half your paycheck the rest of your life. :o

Bowling, on the other hand, is cheap as hell :P

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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If you have to travel for the rating, add $$500-$1000 (hotel, air ticket or driving, extra time off, rental car, etc)
If this is at your local DZ, done over two nights and a weekend, you don't have to take off work, the C-E does the travel and pays for hotel, quit your whining.
Too answer your question, yes , you're missing something.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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aeroflyer



edit: no jumps included for $350, it's two evenings (3.5hr/evening) + practical jumps on a weekend.

Sounds like a lot of $$$. As an instructor, I used to run jumpmaster certification courses from time to time. The candidates purchased their materials, paid their USPA fees and paid the evaluators' jumps, but that was it. I don't recall charging a dime for my own time. Just seemed like the thing to do.

But skydiving isn't about giving back to the sport anymore. It's become a very big business, with a lot of people making their living at it.

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Thanks Chuck. I actually charge around the industry average for full time examiners. Although the range for part time examiners varies dramatically. Like many have stated. You (usually) get what you pay for.

Like many I am curious to how someone can effectively run a coach course over 2 nights and 8 hours. According to the IRM a course is "typically three days". My coach courses run 3 days and they are a full 3 days. If I could convince people to attend coach courses that ran 5 days I believe we could use all 5 very productively. As examiners it is our job to set and hold the standard.

If we take shortcuts who are we really helping? As a poor example, probably not helping the coach. By not giving the coach everything we can, probably not helping the students they teach.

On a side note. I believe we have TOO MANY examiners and as a result standards that are poorly held. The system we work in is a solid system as long as the examiners hold the standard.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

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JohnMitchell

***

edit: no jumps included for $350, it's two evenings (3.5hr/evening) + practical jumps on a weekend.

Sounds like a lot of $$$. As an instructor, I used to run jumpmaster certification courses from time to time. The candidates purchased their materials, paid their USPA fees and paid the evaluators' jumps, but that was it. I don't recall charging a dime for my own time. Just seemed like the thing to do.

But skydiving isn't about giving back to the sport anymore. It's become a very big business, with a lot of people making their living at it.
I used to do JM and I courses for nothing or next to it, but then USPA decided I had to take the I-E course to maintain the ratings. That cost me way over $1000 ( airfare, car rental, hotel, course cost, etc), so now I charge enough to cover expenses and make a little to pay for what I've spent.
Usually about $200 for a coach course if we have at least 3 or 4 and I don't need to get a hotel room or travel far. I split that with one or two others.
But I'm not doing it for a living.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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JohnMitchell

But skydiving isn't about giving back to the sport anymore. It's become a very big business, with a lot of people making their living at it.



I've had my coach rating for a couple years and have only charged a student for one jump. And that's because he went to manifest before talking to me. When I first started I got a lot of free coaching and I feel that it's important to pay it forward.
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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ufk22


I used to do JM and I courses for nothing or next to it, but then USPA decided I had to take the I-E course to maintain the ratings. That cost me way over $1000 ( airfare, car rental, hotel, course cost, etc),

How much was just the course cost itself? Do you think the training was worth it or was it "death by powerpoint"?


I was an ASO and instructor back when, so I was able to teach Instructor courses. :)

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