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Major reserve hesitation

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mjosparky

He sure stayed with the main a long time. The blue canopy at 1:08 is the reserve, the camera just lost track of him.

Sparky



exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.

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exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.



I've never been in a cutaway situation... But I can't imagine that when the time comes I would be worried about whether or not I recover the main. That just doesn't seem like it would, or should be, a priority at that moment.[:/]

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BigMikeH77

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exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.



That exact thing has killed people already.

***I've never been in a cutaway situation... But I can't imagine that when the time comes I would be worried about whether or not I recover the main. That just doesn't seem like it would, or should be, a priority at that moment.[:/]



Unfortunetly with most anything we as humans do, we tend to get complacent after having done something awhile, even skydiving. We must always be vigilant and realize each jump is unique.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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It's a perfectly reasonable concern. It was a high altitude hop and pop, like a crw dive. His cutaway altitude was still at a conservative height. There is no reason for it to be dangerous to cut away from 2,500 or slightly lower, he paused to let a canopy pass beneath him. He has every right to expect his equipment to perform from a fraction of this altitude. This appears to be a failure, or near failure of the reserve system. It's hard to say exactly what happened but it sure sounds like a stuck bag just like some of the other incidents/accidents we've seen lately. If you don't keep up with it be advised that there are several threads discussing bag extraction failure in the rigging section.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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he paused to let a canopy pass beneath him.



It's difficult for me to really tell what's going on in the video... Clearly the use of digital zoom indicates there is a good deal of altitude still, and I see what appears to be a line-over (is that correct?) malfunction. The pilot cuts the malfunctioned main away, and then for a moment it looks like the reserve canopy is still inside the freebag and in tow - as though it doesn't "want" to open.

After that the camera follows the main to the ground.

So I'm slightly confused - Did the pilot wait to deploy his reserve or did the reserve deploy upon cutaway but not open?

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BigMikeH77

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exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.



I've never been in a cutaway situation... But I can't imagine that when the time comes I would be worried about whether or not I recover the main. That just doesn't seem like it would, or should be, a priority at that moment.[:/]



Hmm... If you had lots of altitude and a canopy overhead (albeit not landable canopy) this might be totally reasonable. Certianly if the canopy were spinnging violently, riding it could bring the risk of incapacitation due to G-forces, and cutting away immediately would be prudent.

I once had a stable but unlandable canopy on a Hop & Pop from ~4500 feet. I flew it to the DZ and spiraled down to limit the opportunity for the canopy to fly far away. Even so.... the canopy flew more than a mile from where I cutaway.

If this jumper had cutaway immediately (above 10,000 ft AGL per the jumper's written description of the incident)..... the risk of losing the canopy would be VERY great.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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It appears that the reserve pilot chute fired and extended to bridle stretch but there was a delay before the reserve bag was extracted. That's my best guess by what little I can see. Any thing beyond that is speculation.

I will speculate that the reserve container was just to tight to allow the reserve bag to be extracted. There are other examples of this. Here's a POV...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYQ6iP8zlg

And here's another on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpF-LtrMfYo&feature=youtu.be

There are several threads on it. One is here...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4554320;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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At 54-55 secs you see the PC being towed. To me it doesn't look far enough above him to be at full line stretch. Comparing PC diameter and body size it only looks like 6-8 feet. You can also, if you try hard, imagine that it seems not to be coming straight off his back. Not that this couldn't be a tight reserve container delay but wonder if it isn't hung up on something else, as suggested by the poster.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Look at the body relative to the canopy as he is stable under it before he releases the toggles to cut away. It gives you an idea of the angle at which you are actually viewing it from. You are not looking at this from the side you are looking almost straight up when he cuts away. I think the bridle length is being seen at an angle and is foreshortened. The video is very zoomed in. You are still a good ways away. You can not judge a difference in size of the body and pilot chute with that great a distance to the target. Yes the PC is farther away but the difference is only 1% of the total distance to the two bodies so there is no appreciable change in size of the diameter.

What I'm basically saying is that I don't think you can really judge the length of bridle extension by ether. I can't tell why it towed. I don't know any of the details but it does look like it might be another Wings parabolic pilot chute. Damn, And I just got in a new wings container. I guess I should get back to stretching if I'm going to add hand deployment to my emergency procedures.

I shouldn't say that shit in the dark like this but it is funny. My new rig is over in the corner waiting for a reserve. Maybe I should go with a 126 rather then a 143...

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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You have to click the "Show More" in the "About" tab on the YouTube page. He wrote a very long description of what happened (his ADD fired!), so it was clearly a long delay. But you only see a few lines of his discription (and nothing to clearly indicate he wrote more).

Ah screw it: I'll copy/pasta the thing:

"Published on Sep 29, 2013

2nd Chop ( please pardon my 5:00 A.M. ramblings. I've been sitting and thinking and writing this since somewhere around 3:00 A.M. this morning )

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not interested in pointing fingers in any direction or saying that the decisions I made were the right decisions.
I am simply sharing an experience for anyone that chooses to read it.

Had a great day of jumping with friends to be topped off with a sunset load doing a high pull.

Exited the plane around 14k, stable with about a 3 second delay and opened into a line over with a hard left turn.

Having recently had a cutaway in which I couldn't find my main and free bag for 3 weeks, I didn't want to chop it too high if I could safely ride it to a lower altitude and minimize the drift of the main and free bag.

I released the right brake to see if I could counter the left turn. By using right toggle input only, I was able to minimize the left turn and somewhat maintain the position I wanted above the DZ so that when I chopped it, the wind would carry the main and free bag toward the DZ. Too much right toggle and the canopy wanted to stall, so I just kept it in a slow left turn.

Since I had altitude in which to cutaway from it if it got too much out of control, I decided to ride it down to 2500 and then cut it away.

As I got to 2500 I looked down and there was another canopy passing below me. I wasn't going to cutaway above someone else, putting them in danger, so I decided to ride it for a few more seconds before chopping it.

I know it all happened quickly, but it seemed like an eternity passed as I looked at the cutaway and reserve handles in my hands and felt nothing happening.

I knew the cutaway cable was out because I was falling again, and I could see that the reserve handle was out but I wasn't getting that warm fuzzy feeling of a canopy opening and slowing me down.

As I looked at both handles a felt nothing good happening, two thoughts passed through my mind in quick succession. One questioning whether the new pillow reserve handle that had just been installed was bad and had broken and the other thought being "well, I'm f#€ked"

I looked over my left shoulder and could see the reserve pilot chute and that beautiful, wide reserve bridle streaming out about 12-15 feet behind me and thought that it must be hung up on me somewhere, so I changed my body position to try to clear it or get it in better air. As I moved my body and looked back toward the ground, I felt everything start opening.

My AAD fired, so I don't know if my different body position is what caused the reserve to go ahead and open or if the AAD firing is what ultimately released it.
By the time I got open and saddled out I would estimate I was around 600 feet.
I made an uneventful landing and walked with slightly shaky legs to the truck waiting to pick us up.

20/20 hindsight being a great teacher, I am compelled in my mind to look at what I would do differently in a similar situation.
I would still decide to ride it to a lower altitude if I felt I could safely do so, but I would cut it away at 3500 feet instead of 2500 feet.
I might try unstowing the both brakes to let the left side of the canopy try to fly. THAT might have been the better option. I will be discussing this with my S&TA and my instructors to try to be better prepared should I find myself in a similar predicament.

Regardless of the altitude, I would still delay the cutaway if I could see that I would be putting someone else at risk.

My free bag and canopy both landed on the DZ and were recovered quickly.
I made a less than pretty landing, but one I was able to walk away from.
I got to go home with my wife with nothing more than a good scare and a situation to sit back and spend some valuable time reflecting on.

When it's all said and done, there is a risk to skydiving. We all signed that waiver acknowledging that we understand that risk and choose to partake in this activity.

I will continue jumping and enjoying the camaraderie of the wonderful people that I get to hang out with."

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Hi Jim,

Quote

Sure liked my 2pin Mini-Hawk!



Based upon my own personal experience & observations during drops tests, I am convinced that a 2-pin reserve container ( all other factors being equal ) will open faster than a 1-pin reserve container will.

What's that saying over the entrance to the brothel: You pays your money & you takes your chances.

JerryBaumchen

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BigMikeH77

But I can't imagine that when the time comes I would be worried about whether or not I recover the main. That just doesn't seem like it would, or should be, a priority at that moment.[:/]

I had a premature opening with the pilot chute caught in the steering lines at 12,000 feet once. The canopy would spin a bit, then I'd get it stopped with toggles. I was half a mile from the Pacific Ocean, over the jungle, and I didn't want to chop from over 2 miles up, so I rode it a while.

Best thing was, it cleared itself by 9500 feet and I landed it. B|

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Exited the plane around 14k, stable with about a 3 second delay and opened into a line over with a hard left turn.

Having recently had a cutaway in which I couldn't find my main and free bag for 3 weeks, I didn't want to chop it too high if I could safely ride it to a lower altitude and minimize the drift of the main and free bag.



Clearly the cost of a new main is high, but what's the cost of a replacement line vs. a reserve repack? @hook-knife.
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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JerryBaumchen

Hi Jim,

Quote

Sure liked my 2pin Mini-Hawk!



Based upon my own personal experience & observations during drops tests, I am convinced that a 2-pin reserve container ( all other factors being equal ) will open faster than a 1-pin reserve container will.

JerryBaumchen



Wonder what the viability of a 2 pin 'vertical' set-up would be, on the modern tapered containers...










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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airtwardo

Sure liked my 2pin Mini-Hawk! ;)



According to the Poynter manual, the Mini-Hawk is "circa 1982".
What year is yours?
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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I kind of found that 2 pin containers didn't compress a pilot chute as well as a 1 pin. With the closing loop ends off to the sides of the pilot chute, it led to larger bending forces on the flaps on top. It was OK for less strong but decent PC's (eg, 357 Magnum) but when I tried putting a Vector PC into an old 2 pin, it really distorted the flaps. But a modern design would be better as it would be designed to take greater forces. A single pin with a loop through the middle of the PC anchors it a lot better in my opinion.

It was the early Mirages that were 2 pins vertically? Just about the only 2 pin vertical design I recall.

Maybe the fast openings that were mentioned, are due more to the relatively wide and non brick like containers of the time?

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airtwardo

***Hi Jim,

Quote

Sure liked my 2pin Mini-Hawk!



Based upon my own personal experience & observations during drops tests, I am convinced that a 2-pin reserve container ( all other factors being equal ) will open faster than a 1-pin reserve container will.

JerryBaumchen



Wonder what the viability of a 2 pin 'vertical' set-up would be, on the modern tapered containers...

Isnt that what a racer has?

Jan

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bakerjan

******Hi Jim,

Quote

Sure liked my 2pin Mini-Hawk!



Based upon my own personal experience & observations during drops tests, I am convinced that a 2-pin reserve container ( all other factors being equal ) will open faster than a 1-pin reserve container will.

JerryBaumchen



Wonder what the viability of a 2 pin 'vertical' set-up would be, on the modern tapered containers...

Isnt that what a racer has?

Jan

It does...but it's a pop-top, like comparing apples & alligators.
;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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There were actually two different two pin mirage designs. One with internal pins, that sucked. And one with external pins that was ok. There was also the Prestige. With two pins vertical.

I think the reason that containers like the dual hawk and others of the same ilk had very good launches was because of the flap design. Two relatively thin wide flaps that barely meet over the PC. No tuck tabs into the opposite flaps. No big bulky heavy stiff flaps with ten layers of fabric, ballistic cloth, stiffeners, stripes, piping, etc. No supper tight main flaps that wrap over the top of the reserve trays trying to lock down the bottom flap. The whole top flap is not one big stiffener like a giant lever that must be pushed out of the way with very little mechanical advantage. No side flaps over it with tall stiffened edges that reach all the way top to bottom to lock there corners under the top or bottom flaps. A container that is actually bigger then the top of the pilot chute. A bigger relative hole for it to push through, better mechanical advantage pushing through the flaps.

You know I can't imagine why older container designs might out perform our modern, high tech, supper tight, slick as shit, tiny containers. But hay, we've got free fly colors now. And shiny, don't forget the shiny!

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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RiggerLee

There were actually two different two pin mirage designs. One with internal pins, that sucked. And one with external pins that was ok. There was also the Prestige. With two pins vertical.

I think the reason that containers like the dual hawk and others of the same ilk had very good launches was because of the flap design. Two relatively thin wide flaps that barely meet over the PC. No tuck tabs into the opposite flaps. No big bulky heavy stiff flaps with ten layers of fabric, ballistic cloth, stiffeners, stripes, piping, etc. No supper tight main flaps that wrap over the top of the reserve trays trying to lock down the bottom flap. The whole top flap is not one big stiffener like a giant lever that must be pushed out of the way with very little mechanical advantage. No side flaps over it with tall stiffened edges that reach all the way top to bottom to lock there corners under the top or bottom flaps. A container that is actually bigger then the top of the pilot chute. A bigger relative hole for it to push through, better mechanical advantage pushing through the flaps.

You know I can't imagine why older container designs might out perform our modern, high tech, supper tight, slick as shit, tiny containers. But hay, we've got free fly colors now. And shiny, don't forget the shiny!

Lee



I wish we had a like feature on this website! :thumbsup:
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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