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Major reserve hesitation

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Hi Bartek,

That pilot chute has always interested me.

Do you know if there is any covering around the spring? Or is it exposed as it appears to be in the 2nd photo?

Hi John Sherman,

One advantage is one less material to have in stock. Since both the canopy and the alternating sock parts appear to be probably F1-11 or similar.

JerryBaumchen

PS) A personal opinion: Obviously, the amount of drag that a pilot chute has is very important. Also important is how fast it inflates and begins pulling. Those are two different features.

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JerryBaumchen


One advantage is one less material to have in stock. Since both the canopy and the alternating sock parts appear to be probably F1-11 or similar.



This RPC has both, mesh and F111 ;)
If you take a close look at the first picture, you will see the black mesh.
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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Tried it off the roof with 10lbs. on an old Hotdog & a M-A1...think I killed the dog.



A little heavy and a little low. LOL. Basically you might get away with no weight. I would add weight only for stability and to equalize between the test pilot chutes.
The longer we can keep them in the air the better data.

How's the dog and who won?

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JohnSherman

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Tried it off the roof with 10lbs. on an old Hotdog & a M-A1...think I killed the dog.



A little heavy and a little low. LOL. Basically you might get away with no weight. I would add weight only for stability and to equalize between the test pilot chutes.
The longer we can keep them in the air the better data.

How's the dog and who won?



Dog woke up...he's fine, just a little more 'nervous' than usual.

Peak of the roof is just under 40'...the Hotdog 'won' by a considerable margin but it was hardly a scientific approach.

They were both old & weathered.

...I do also have an older but never used Jav reserve PC and a Strong G300 PC never used.

Maybe tomorrow try it again...this time video it & keep the dog inside. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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In our thirst for test data information, I would remind all that Dave Singer, Chair of the PIA Tech Committee presented data, at the last meeting, showing comparitive results from the Raeford wind tunnel pilot chute test.
I haven't seen the data as I don't believe a hand out was provided at the meeting and Dave hasen't responded to my request.
Anyone out there who attended the meeting would be doing the sport a favor by sharing this data whether or it in written form or from memory.
I know there were several pilot chutes tested and I am told that a Javlin and a Vector 2 were included.
Additionally, money was allocated for further testing which might be going on currently.

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JohnSherman


Anyone out there who attended the meeting would be doing the sport a favor by sharing this data whether or it in written form or from memory.



Agree. Why this information is not public?

Related to the discussion: What are the thoughts about a design like the one of the Basik Advance OUT or the Advance Seven? In those rigs there are no lateral flaps. The Cordura or Parapack material that you see around the PC is the freebag (it has a liner of F111 or some similar fabric). In theory, not having lateral flaps means that once the pilot chute is out the freebag doesn't have to clear any flap to come out (besides some small "retainers" in the corners that are there to keep the corners of the freebag from being exposed).

I had a repack last week and I mentioned to my rigger that my next rig (hopefully not before 2 or 3 years, or even more) might be an Advance. He was not very enthusiastic about my idea (but he had nothing against it either), and he had pack those rigs before.

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What are the thoughts about a design like the one of the Basik Advance OUT or the Advance Seven? In those rigs there are no lateral flaps. The Cordura or Parapack material that you see around the PC is the freebag (it has a liner of F111 or some similar fabric). In theory, not having lateral flaps means that once the pilot chute is out the freebag doesn't have to clear any flap to come out (besides some small "retainers" in the corners that are there to keep the corners of the freebag from being exposed).



The Advance doesn't use container friction retention to hold the bag until pilot chute loading, it uses a retainer with a pin release or so I understand it.
This method while going back to Para-Flite time works. It was the method used before container retension.
Container retention was something we developed in objection to the retainer and loop. Container retension was never intended to include "Friction". Current designer have gotten carried away with appearence and increased the friction to a dangerous level.
The Basic folks have been aware of extraction problems and have none. Their videos, while not of good quality, do show deployment time approaching that of the Racer. At east they show deployment times and without the unreliable MARD. No body else does.

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JohnSherman

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What are the thoughts about a design like the one of the Basik Advance OUT or the Advance Seven? In those rigs there are no lateral flaps. The Cordura or Parapack material that you see around the PC is the freebag (it has a liner of F111 or some similar fabric). In theory, not having lateral flaps means that once the pilot chute is out the freebag doesn't have to clear any flap to come out (besides some small "retainers" in the corners that are there to keep the corners of the freebag from being exposed).



The Advance doesn't use container friction retention to hold the bag until pilot chute loading, it uses a retainer with a pin release or so I understand it.
This method while going back to Para-Flite time works. It was the method used before container retension.
Container retention was something we developed in objection to the retainer and loop. Container retension was never intended to include "Friction". Current designer have gotten carried away with appearence and increased the friction to a dangerous level.
The Basic folks have been aware of extraction problems and have none. Their videos, while not of good quality, do show deployment time approaching that of the Racer. At least they show deployment times and without the unreliable MARD. No body else does.


A friend had a cutaway last weekend. The skyhook tether snapped during the deploymentB|.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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nigel99


A friend had a cutaway last weekend. The skyhook tether snapped during the deploymentB|.



Hey Nigel, a little clarification of the wording please? You make it sound rather serious, like the RSL lanyard to the Skyhook broke, or the metal Skyhook hook broke.

Or did you just mean that due to the way the system tensioned during the cutaway, the lanyard to the RSL slipped off the hook (where it is restrained by only seal thread if pulled in the 'wrong' direction).

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pchapman

***
A friend had a cutaway last weekend. The skyhook tether snapped during the deploymentB|.



Hey Nigel, a little clarification of the wording please? You make it sound rather serious, like the RSL lanyard to the Skyhook broke, or the metal Skyhook hook broke.

Or did you just mean that due to the way the system tensioned during the cutaway, the lanyard to the RSL slipped off the hook (where it is restrained by only seal thread if pulled in the 'wrong' direction).

The lanyard snapped.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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skydiverek

***The lanyard snapped.



What was the mal? The lanyard breaks (on purpose) at approx 400 lbs:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3439894;search_string=lanyard%20skyhook%20lbs;#3439894

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2026602;search_string=lanyard%20skyhook%20lbs;#2026602

Spinning linetwists and I have no further information.

Interesting posts that you pulled up - hell of a thing to have over 300lbs tension on a freebag, probably raises more questions than it answers.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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-ftp-

***He sure stayed with the main a long time. The blue canopy at 1:08 is the reserve, the camera just lost track of him.

Sparky



exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.

Ok, so I only found out today that this was being discussed here, so I figured I'd chime in.
The video was me.
Yes, you are correct, the decision to ride it down to 2500, and then a little lower due to the other jumper flying beneath me could have cost me my life. That thought has occurred to me.
As for the comment by someone else about a hook knife; I was not carrying one prior to this jump. I now have one with me on every jump.
The point about the hook knife was made to me by a friend and I promised I'd start carrying one.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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BigMikeH77

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exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.



I've never been in a cutaway situation... But I can't imagine that when the time comes I would be worried about whether or not I recover the main. That just doesn't seem like it would, or should be, a priority at that moment.[:/]


BigMikeH77, you are indeed right. It shouldn't be a priority at that moment. But, having just gotten my rig back that day from my first cutaway, in which it took me 3 weekends to find the main and free bag, it WAS a part of the decision making process. It was not THE priority, but it was a factor. I had no reason to expect such a long hesitation in my reserve opening and the malfunction was safely controllable to a lower altitude. Had I chopped it at the altitude that it occurred, it would have likely made it to the next state before coming down.
to saying my decision was THE right one, but it was the one I made.
I am open to any and all input, or criticisms offered. I'm a big boy, so let em fly.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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SEREJumper

***

Quote

exactly my thought, he says it was to chop lower so his main wouldn't drift far away. Could have cost him his life.



That exact thing has killed people already.

***I've never been in a cutaway situation... But I can't imagine that when the time comes I would be worried about whether or not I recover the main. That just doesn't seem like it would, or should be, a priority at that moment.[:/]


Unfortunetly with most anything we as humans do, we tend to get complacent after having done something awhile, even skydiving. We must always be vigilant and realize each jump is unique.

SEREJumper, no complacency issue here. It was a decision, right or wrong but don't jump to the conclusion that I was complacent. You would be mistaken.
I am learning. I am taking input from all sources and evaluating what I might do differently.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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RiggerLee

It's a perfectly reasonable concern. It was a high altitude hop and pop, like a crw dive. His cutaway altitude was still at a conservative height. There is no reason for it to be dangerous to cut away from 2,500 or slightly lower, he paused to let a canopy pass beneath him. He has every right to expect his equipment to perform from a fraction of this altitude. This appears to be a failure, or near failure of the reserve system. It's hard to say exactly what happened but it sure sounds like a stuck bag just like some of the other incidents/accidents we've seen lately. If you don't keep up with it be advised that there are several threads discussing bag extraction failure in the rigging section.

Lee



RiggerLee, you've got it right. It is hard to say exactly what happened.
I have heard theories about the PC being in a burble, needing to build enough speed for it to have enough force to extract the reserve, the container being too tight for the reserve ( this is the original reserve that came with the rig per my discussion with the manufacturer ), and a few other theories.
I don't claim to know why it happened. On my first cutaway, the reserve extracted just fine. All I know is that when I looked over my shoulder and saw the PC and the bridle streaming out behind me, my thought was to change my body position. It was right after that that I could feel it start to extract.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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BigMikeH77

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he paused to let a canopy pass beneath him.



It's difficult for me to really tell what's going on in the video... Clearly the use of digital zoom indicates there is a good deal of altitude still, and I see what appears to be a line-over (is that correct?) malfunction. The pilot cuts the malfunctioned main away, and then for a moment it looks like the reserve canopy is still inside the freebag and in tow - as though it doesn't "want" to open.

After that the camera follows the main to the ground.

So I'm slightly confused - Did the pilot wait to deploy his reserve or did the reserve deploy upon cutaway but not open?



No digital zoom used. Low light and optical zoom only. Reserve was NOT in tow. That is the PC that you see.

Just before I cutaway, you can see me get straight under the canopy for a moment. I already had my left hand on the reserve handle and, knowing that letting go of the right toggle would send me back into a hard left turn, pulled the right brake down to the same level as my cutaway handle so that I could release the brake, grab the cutaway handle and chop it.i followed with the reserve handle within one second.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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kuai43

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Exited the plane around 14k, stable with about a 3 second delay and opened into a line over with a hard left turn.

Having recently had a cutaway in which I couldn't find my main and free bag for 3 weeks, I didn't want to chop it too high if I could safely ride it to a lower altitude and minimize the drift of the main and free bag.



Clearly the cost of a new main is high, but what's the cost of a replacement line vs. a reserve repack? @hook-knife.



Amen!, that is why I now carry a hook knife on every jump.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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riggerrob

Which model of container?
How big is the container?
How big is the reserve?
Is that size of reserve recommended on the container compatibility chart?
How long was the reserve closing loop?



Wings W-30
253 Sq ft
Same reserve that it came with from the manufacturer, so I hope it would be compatible.
Don't know how long the reserve closing loop was.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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Quagmirian

Am I wrong, or is that a 9 cell reserve? Not saying it had anything to do with the hesitation, just an observation.



PD Reserve, 253 Sq ft.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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ChrisD

:)

C

Looks like an ad for a skyhook IMO.

And we still have those that want to dick around with their explanations to justify their learning experience?

Seriously,

Really:

More armchair advocates making statements that riding a fatal main is ok? The ADHD fired, so that makes this ok????

Don't think >:(

PERFORME YOUR EP'S FOLKS.

Time is not on your side....

I bet the kid did the best he could under the circumstances,... there is nothing new here other than the amount of stupidity shown by more than a few comments advocating delaying your EP's. :)



ChrisD, Yes. Under the circumstances I did the best I could. The point has been correctly made that I might have wished for all of that altitude back had I had a malfunction with the reserve that I had to deal with.
Again, I'm not trying to justify my decisions. In retrospect, I know that there are other decisions that i could have made that might have been better.
Although I factored it into my decision, losing a main is not worth losing my life. I think that the only, truly correct, answer would have been to cut it away around 13,000 if I was going to cut it away. That said, I did have faith in my reserve and made the decision that I made. The fact that I walked away from it doesn't make it the BEST decision, just the one I made.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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I'm going to play the devils advocate here. It's easy to say that he should have cut away at 13,000 ft when you have never been there and never expect to be in that situation. I've done a lot of CRW and we've faced issues like that often. The very statement that you should cut away from some thing like that imedeantly implies that you do not have faith in you're reserve system and perhaps in this case he should not have. But it also implies that it is suicidal to open your main at 3,500 ft on every jump. By you're logic you should plan to be in the saddle by 6,000 feet or higher on every jump. He was by no means or pushing the envelope on his equipment in any way. The altitude that he cut away at should have been ample several times over. There was nothing wrong with his decisions. There was how ever some thing severely wrong with the performance of his equipment. You can not glaze over that fact with the simple assertion that he should have done some thing differently.

At some point we have to put our faith in our gear. As to what we expect from it... that's very personal depending on the equipment and the individual. But there are clear minimum standards set out for it's performance. Minimum I say. It's spelled out in the testing standards of the TSO's. If it can't meet those then there's some thing wrong and it needs to be addressed.

Lee
Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

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RiggerLee

I'm going to play the devils advocate here. It's easy to say that he should have cut away at 13,000 ft when you have never been there and never expect to be in that situation. I've done a lot of CRW and we've faced issues like that often. The very statement that you should cut away from some thing like that imedeantly implies that you do not have faith in you're reserve system and perhaps in this case he should not have. But it also implies that it is suicidal to open your main at 3,500 ft on every jump. By you're logic you should plan to be in the saddle by 6,000 feet or higher on every jump. He was by no means or pushing the envelope on his equipment in any way. The altitude that he cut away at should have been ample several times over. There was nothing wrong with his decisions. There was how ever some thing severely wrong with the performance of his equipment. You can not glaze over that fact with the simple assertion that he should have done some thing differently.

At some point we have to put our faith in our gear. As to what we expect from it... that's very personal depending on the equipment and the individual. But there are clear minimum standards set out for it's performance. Minimum I say. It's spelled out in the testing standards of the TSO's. If it can't meet those then there's some thing wrong and it needs to be addressed.

Lee



RiggerLee,

I sincerely hope that you'll read this with the humor in which it is intended. I get the impression from your use of the word "he" that you haven't grasped that I am "he" and that you are defending me from me.
I have been there. In fact, I was there at that very moment.
It was not meant to imply that I don't have faith in my reserve, I do.
What my statement says, very clearly, is that the valid point was made to me that cutting away higher might have been the better choice in case there was any further problem to be dealt with.
Not trying to glaze over anything. Just trying to learn from this and evaluate what I could have done differently.
Thank you very much for your input. I do truly appreciate it.:)
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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