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bialicki

Few ? about continuing training???

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To make a long story short I have a friend from Kuwait. I met him while going though STP training at Spaceland, TX he completed 13-15 jumps and I believe the story was he got a little freaked out under canopy because of turbulence. I got a message from him the other day asking about DZ's around me and if there was one I recommend. Being as I live in a area where DZ's only run on weekends and a part of the country where weather holds are more common then a sunny day I pointed him to places in FL.

Now the real questions is with 13-15 jump under his belt... if he was to go to a place like Zhills or maybe just a smaller DZ how would they fit him into their program? Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be out on his own till his 25 jumps where complete?

Any and all advice is welcome!

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It's all on a case-by-case basis. Factors include having all of your 'paperwork' in order, how long it's been since your last jump, how well you do on a re-currency test, and how well you perform during your re-currency jump.

13-15 jumps is not a huge number. With enough time having gone by, you could cut that number in half when it comes to actual, real, retained knowledge/skill. The worst thing you can do is walk onto the DZ with some preconceived idea of what they 'should' do with you. The better bet is to show up ready to play along with whatever they want to do with you, and just trust that they are the experts and know best how to proceed.

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I was scared this might be the truth that I would have to break to him haha! Thank you for the info. Truth is he only had a few more jumps and should of stuck it through. Guess by the time he gets back over here it will be close to a year since his last jump.

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bialicki

I was scared this might be the truth that I would have to break to him haha! Thank you for the info. Truth is he only had a few more jumps and should of stuck it through. Guess by the time he gets back over here it will be close to a year since his last jump.



The other problem is he didn't stop when he was gungho but had other problems getting in the way. It sounds like he stopped because he had a confidence problem due to the turbulence under canopy.

If he is going to get the most out of this he needs to have a little face time, or at least a phone call with a head instructor.

I have seen other friends stop, and then restart because of confidence issues.

They should have flagged it for the new DZ and clearly told them that they were having canopy trouble, or xyz trouble, so they could get the extra focus and encouragement needed to get over the hurdle.

Instead they took the approach of new DZ, this is behind me, and didn't get the extra help they needed to get past it.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I met him while going though STP training at Spaceland, TX.....Now the real questions is with 13-15 jump under his belt... if he was to go to a place like Zhills or maybe just a smaller DZ how would they fit him into their program?



1. He could just go to Skydive Spaceland, FL in Clewiston and step right back into the *exact* same program. Both DZ's are owned by the same group and run the same way using the same training program and aircraft.

2. If he has a logbook, any AFFI should be able to look at where he is and create a program on the spot to finish his training. Now, I can't speak without seeing his logbook, but I think if he had 13-15 jumps in an STP program I would make him do a coach jump with me that started out as a level 4 (single JM, linked exit, release when earned, with a list of objectives like heading control (~3 seconds), 2 360's, and then maybe a backflip). If he did all of that, or even just showed control and awareness and was decent under canopy, I'd release him for *almost* self supervision: He would have to work with a coach, or do solo's with a gear check by a staff member till he showed competence.

So it is not a big deal. If he liked the STP program, I'd suggest Clewiston.

For full disclosure... I sorta, kinda, half-ass work at Clewiston, and my wife does work there as an AFFI on weekends. I am what I like to call "Standby part-time, when I feel like it and then need me status".
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I went to Zhills with only a few jumps under my belt (but I was current) and did some work in their student program. I contacted the manager ahead of time and had a pretty good idea what to expect.

What Ron said about going back to a DZ owned by the same place where your friend started makes a lot of sense to me. It would not hurt for your friend to contact several DZs and see what each one says. Emailing the manager has worked well for me on more than one occasion.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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bialicki

To make a long story short I have a friend from Kuwait. I met him while going though STP training at Spaceland, TX he completed 13-15 jumps and I believe the story was he got a little freaked out under canopy because of turbulence. I got a message from him the other day asking about DZ's around me and if there was one I recommend. Being as I live in a area where DZ's only run on weekends and a part of the country where weather holds are more common then a sunny day I pointed him to places in FL.

Now the real questions is with 13-15 jump under his belt... if he was to go to a place like Zhills or maybe just a smaller DZ how would they fit him into their program? Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be out on his own till his 25 jumps where complete?

Any and all advice is welcome!




Lets get one thing clear, at a minimum he starts with a Cat A jump.

I recommend taking the FJC again, considering he is from Kuwaite. Wont kill em and would be a better refresher than spending time with a coach that may or may not know where he is at.

Sorry a year is too long. And quite frankly I'm not sorry...

C

:)
you have raised the issue once again, that learning,... it is some kind of race,... and or put a certain value on really old jumps so that "He" can start where he left off.....

this is just wrong.....

there is much to be gained by proving your abilities at each and every level, enjoy each jump....don't try to take shortcuts. And BTW they are still jumping at many places in TN. Finding them and rounding people up to drag out the plane is what we start to run into at this time of year.

Call ahead at your local dz and see if someone can run a FJC for this person as compared with just showing up. Although just showing up will work at a place like Perris, DeLand, Eloy, Spaceland, and about 50 other places...
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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As you can see, a wide variety of answers, and there is no one right answer.
First, definitely call ahead and set things up. Be very honest about abilities, time frames and problems.
Being a year uncurrent, going through the FJC is good and will be required at most places.
After that, it comes down to many things;
How well he does during the FJC, especially with the practicals.
What his log book tells me.
His attitude.
If everything is positive, I most likely wouldn't require a 2-sided AFF jump, probably more like what Ron mentioned above, single side with release for him to prove what he can do, but most of this is up to the Instructor and DZ policy. After that jump, things will move forward based on how the jump goes.
If he shows up with a good and humble attitude about things, it's a real plus.
I had 2 somewhat similar in the last year, both about a year uncurrent. First was "A qualified" but never paid for a license. She was a bit put off by having to do a AFF release dive, but went up and did well.
The second was confident but a total mess.
You just never know.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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Great points, :)
It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point.

C

and to anyone that says otherwise, (not you (ufk22)) feel free to let him jump at your dz....


FACT:

1. Already using words like : FREAKED OUT.
2. Arrogance in completing A lic in 25 jumps.
3. Logbook????
4. Strange new place.
5. New instructors wont and don't have a fucking clue about this wonderkindren.

and there is more....
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point.

Not really. Like people said, it varies by DZ and often the instructor's discretion as well.

Single-sided release jumps (similar to an AFF level 4) are far more common based on what I've seen for a heads-up student (or even licensed jumper) that became uncurrent after an abbreviated ground school.

I've even seen people with fewer jumps than me just go on a random freefly jump with an AFF-I as their recurrency jump. While this might make some people's heads explode, it probably isn't uncommon in the real world.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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mattjw916

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It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point.

Not really. Like people said, it varies by DZ and often the instructor's discretion as well.

Single-sided release jumps (similar to an AFF level 4) are far more common based on what I've seen for a heads-up student (or even licensed jumper) that became uncurrent after an abbreviated ground school.

I've even seen people with fewer jumps than me just go on a random freefly jump with an AFF-I as their recurrency jump. While this might make some people's heads explode, it probably isn't uncommon in the real world.



I love you guys ufk and matt!!! I really do, :)

BUT:

A year layoff, under ten jumps (in another country, with unknown value...) and you say "NOT REALLLLYY."

You fucking jump with him then!!!


C

:)
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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ChrisD

***

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It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point.

Not really. Like people said, it varies by DZ and often the instructor's discretion as well.

Single-sided release jumps (similar to an AFF level 4) are far more common based on what I've seen for a heads-up student (or even licensed jumper) that became uncurrent after an abbreviated ground school.

I've even seen people with fewer jumps than me just go on a random freefly jump with an AFF-I as their recurrency jump. While this might make some people's heads explode, it probably isn't uncommon in the real world.



I love you guys ufk and matt!!! I really do, :)

BUT:

A year layoff, under ten jumps (in another country, with unknown value...) and you say "NOT REALLLLYY."

You fucking jump with him then!!!


C

:)A few facts;
this guy has 13-15 jumps, not under 10
he made the jumps at Spaceland (I know that Texan's like to think they live in another country, but they did join the states a few years back)
The SIM states that student recurrency requires "at least one jump under the direct supervision of an appropriately rated instructor"
Generally it's a Cat C (S/L or IAD, a PRCP, AFF a single side) or above , all dependent on the student and their log.
Most DZ's will require sitting through the FJC, but USPA does not.

And yes, I would jump with him, and have done quite a few of recurrency jumps over the years.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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:)
thanks man for the concern, it was a real bender, epic,....


But:

this again:

"I was scared this might be the truth that I would have to break to him haha! Thank you for the info. Truth is he only had a few more jumps and should of stuck it through. Guess by the time he gets back over here it will be close to a year since his last jump."


This is what I see because I have learned, and shit has happened in front of me!

"Freaked out" "should have stuck it out" "truth is" "close to a year"

And all in the third person. I hear the words, they sound a lot different to me as compared with a confident and motivated student in the first person. Yes some nervousness is to be expected, I'd worry if someone wasn't nervous. But the language used to date is concerning. I'm half expecting a puddle of something in the aircraft with the way this "friend" is describing his "friend. So I'm playing it as safe as can be, and there is absolutely everything positive to gain.

I think we are getting a little hung up with perhaps the regulations and such as compared with what is a better way to do something as compared to letting this person from another country just jump on his own.

I see the potential for a lot of heat if one JM can't handle this person. Imagine the headlines if they both go in???

Sound familiar????

Almost word for word what has already recently happened O'h how soon we forget!

The benefits outweigh the consequences about a million to one.

This isn't really debatable.

Additionally the third person has phrased his comments as "breaking bad news," when is it bad news, (yes my words,) but when is it bad news having to "repeat" some Cat jumps? It's something everyone should be looking forward too as compared with copping an attitude about being forced to repeat something he has already done.

play it safe, we don't need a Zhills repeat....

C


Why in Gods name would someone be scared to tell someone else the truth?????? And then laugh about it?????? ha haa hhaahhaaaaa ............ splat
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point.



No he is not. He is required to do refresher training per Section 5.2 of the SIM.

"Students who have not jumped within the preceding
30 days should make at least one jump under the
direct supervision of an appropriately rated
USPA Instructor."

Quote

and to anyone that says otherwise, (not you (ufk22)) feel free to let him jump at your dz....



No problem.

Quote

The benefits outweigh the consequences about a million to one.

This isn't really debatable.



Clearly it is debatable. You are not the last word on skydiving neither am I... therefore it clearly is open to debate.

What you fail to either know or acknowledge is many programs are single I. The STP program for example starts with a few tandems and then goes to single I. Many military programs I worked were single I.

So I would have no problem taking a guy with a logbook showing 10-15 jumps that were decent on a single JM jump like I described above.

You are free to not be willing to do that, but please do not confuse your opinion to being equal to the law or even the BSR's.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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bialicki

To make a long story short I have a friend from Kuwait. I met him while going though STP training at Spaceland, TX he completed 13-15 jumps and I believe the story was he got a little freaked out under canopy because of turbulence. I got a message from him the other day asking about DZ's around me and if there was one I recommend. Being as I live in a area where DZ's only run on weekends and a part of the country where weather holds are more common then a sunny day I pointed him to places in FL.

Now the real questions is with 13-15 jump under his belt... if he was to go to a place like Zhills or maybe just a smaller DZ how would they fit him into their program? Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be out on his own till his 25 jumps where complete?

Any and all advice is welcome!



Based on the replies, I would say "Call the DZ, have him talk to an instructor". A lot will probably depend on the instructor. I completed Levels 1-6; I regained my door fear and stopped early. I plan on going back and have had responses from "FJC, Level 1 which may become a harness release dive, followed by Levels 4-5-6-7 and then solo" to "Short course, Single instructor harness hold if <180 days, and redo levels 6 and 7 before solo".

It WILL depend on your instructor within the limits of the SIM.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but if he is serious about the sport but has confidence problems he should do something very conservative and rebuild his confidence... no matter how many jumps it takes.

Why the rush to A license? You don't want to finish the A and still have canopy issues.
You are not the contents of your wallet.

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I hate it when you take that reasonable tone with me,...:)

I persist in much of this thread because some of the things of concern that haven't been mentioned yet like:

The USPA, BSR's, FAA, etc. set the absolute minimum standards.

Too many perceive this as a guideline or rule that must be followed. As yo point out everyone is different, but there is a trend in skydiving to push these minimums as the maximums upon students. I think you get this point. Students need to hear this. They also need to understand that it is normal to take more than 25 jumps to get a rating. However they, the students make comparisons to this number constantly and many students judge not by their competency but by the number of jumps they have completed.

On the other hand the instructors are constantly faced with making value judgments about the competency of their students. In this case we can't even speak with the student in question because he has an interpreter:P talk about speaking in the third person??? and it is my humble opinion that the instructor on the scene has a responsibility to make these types of judgments free from someone quoting the SIM as the first rule. If in fact I mentioned to a student that after not jumping for a year, I would like to see them with 2 AFFI's by their side, and I get a ration of excuses after hearing the words about freaking out and may or may not be comfortable, this about says it all.

I'll use Deland as an example. With the number of new and un-current, overseas jumpers, etc. and no disrespect is intended,...it is frequently asked that new people land in the area in-between the runways. Many just say ok and they see the logic. Frequently I am witness to these discussions and if the new person starts to get really nebulous about their experience or currency they then are asked [I] all the more [/I] to land in the larger area. But every now and then we face someone who is determined to land beside the fence, after not taking our advice for the sole reason they have a c license. And they believe the larger area is beneath them. You should be around with some of the visiting individuals and hear these conversations all about ratings and licenses and all sorts of mad scillzzz.... So in a very real sense we have learned we don't care what lic they have this is not the point nor do some of us care what you/ they have to say. We have learned again and again to ignore the speeches and focus on what they say and how they say it. Considering some of the most vocal kissed a coconut more than once.

But absolutely nothing about taking a more conservative road as a first step or for that matter at any point along this road.

I read way too many incident reports, and I see way too many never promote a more conservative approach.

Dave and Doug have promoted a more conservative approach. I'm tellin ya if some kid, who can't even speak for himself starts speaking about freaking out and dropping out and this or that, there are going to be two of us in the air giving this and every person that needs this and can benefit from this approach, and it's not going to be an option. Instructors have a responsibility when faced with fact supporting students that have issues and far too many instructors shirk this aspect of their responsibilities.

As a group we need to increase the number of instructors that exercise this control over their students, far too many don't and or are afraid to do this.

I generally take a different view point to stir the pot and to point out some of these widely held stereotypes.

With me it isn't going to be what you have to say or even your logbook, I watch your air skills and give you what you need to progress not what you think you want.

C

This is the OPs' question that I'm really speaking about here:

"Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be [I] out on his own [/I] till his 25 jumps where complete?"


Could he or should he????
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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Ok, I'll ask again.
What instructional ratings do you currently hold?
How many instructional jumps or recurrence jumps have you done?
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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The USPA, BSR's, FAA, etc. set the absolute minimum standards.



Of course, but you made a statement of fact that was not a fact: "Lets get one thing clear, at a minimum he starts with a Cat A jump" and "It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point."

It was an opinion and opinions clearly can vary.

Quote

and it is my humble opinion that the instructor on the scene has a responsibility to make these types of judgments free from someone quoting the SIM as the first rule.



Of course, but that goes both ways. The "I" making the decision could make them do a tandem, or let them go freeflying. While I would not agree with freeflying, I also would not agree with a Tandem in most cases.

Quote

I would like to see them with 2 AFFI's by their side, and I get a ration of excuses



There is no doubt 2 AFFI's would be better. But I am/have been involved in plenty of programs where there is only one Instructor starting with jump #1. Even in those programs the single 'I' can add the 2nd 'I' if they feel like it.

Quote

after hearing the words about freaking out



But to be 100% clear:
1. It is a third party opinion of the student.
2. He said "he got a little freaked out under canopy because of turbulence"

Two AFFI's will do nothing for a guy under canopy.

Quote

This is the OPs' question that I'm really speaking about here:

"Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be out on his own till his 25 jumps where complete?"


Could he or should he????



Could he or should he will be up to the Instructor. I have zero doubt that I can do single JM AFF (mainly because I have). But I have less fear about taking a guy with 10-12 jumps in a logbook I can read and see what he has done for 10-12 jumps than some tandem student who is going for their first solo.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

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The USPA, BSR's, FAA, etc. set the absolute minimum standards.



Of course, but you made a statement of fact that was not a fact: "Lets get one thing clear, at a minimum he starts with a Cat A jump" and "It is been over a year and he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point."

It was an opinion and opinions clearly can vary.

***and it is my humble opinion that the instructor on the scene has a responsibility to make these types of judgments free from someone quoting the SIM as the first rule.



Of course, but that goes both ways. The "I" making the decision could make them do a tandem, or let them go freeflying. While I would not agree with freeflying, I also would not agree with a Tandem in most cases.

Quote

I would like to see them with 2 AFFI's by their side, and I get a ration of excuses



There is no doubt 2 AFFI's would be better. But I am/have been involved in plenty of programs where there is only one Instructor starting with jump #1. Even in those programs the single 'I' can add the 2nd 'I' if they feel like it.

Quote

after hearing the words about freaking out



But to be 100% clear:
1. It is a third party opinion of the student.
2. He said "he got a little freaked out under canopy because of turbulence"

Two AFFI's will do nothing for a guy under canopy.

Quote

This is the OPs' question that I'm really speaking about here:

"Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be out on his own till his 25 jumps where complete?"


Could he or should he????



Could he or should he will be up to the Instructor. I have zero doubt that I can do single JM AFF (mainly because I have). But I have less fear about taking a guy with 10-12 jumps in a logbook I can read and see what he has done for 10-12 jumps than some tandem student who is going for their first solo.

Yes, I think we are on the same page. :)
Some other factors:

I never really get hung up on the facts, Look , Listen, and keep my mouth shut and evaluate.

There is nothing POSITIVE with the OPs original post, now I'm not making any personal judgments or any hidden meanings about the student in question. But there is nothing there but red flags! Not one word of anything even remotely positive or encouraging. The OP isn't even saying that the mystery kid enjoys jumping???

How many jumps?
did the grand total of these jumps take place over 2 years?

Students jump in calm conditions. So why did he "freak" under canopy?

It yo stick to the facts, we have nothing but one scarey student to deal with.

Now I'm going to use you as an example AFFI for a bit. Don't take offense, I know that you are much more competent than the following is about to portray, but neverless there are many out there that fall into this trap in thinking:

All I see in that first response is an AFFI that is more interested in speaking about the min requirements as posted in the SIM. I see a comment about the instructor speaking more about how in a dearth of information about this particular student, the formost point isn't about the student it's about how you would be comfortable about being a single JM. What if 8 of these jumps were Cat A jumps because this student needs a little more than most??? yes you didn't know because we don't have him in front of us, nor his logbook. But this isn't the point, you went right to the SIM, quoted a few numbers and then stated Mad skilzz that as a single JM you would jump with him.

Again this isn't about you , it's just that your a convenient punching bag at the moment. :)
It's about how you responded.

As so many do it's about them not you. Again all I see are RED flags, there is absolutely noting positive about how this kid is being described, but instead of finding out more information,...the response is about how you can handle a particular situation. Do you get this point? This is a big trap for a huge number of instructors.

Admitting that 2 JMs is a better way to go is very difficult for anyone to admit. there are monetary pressures to go immediately to a single JM. There are ego and hubris issues with the instructors that they can handle anything. there are all kinds of forces to operate one way to the detriment of the student that doesn't know any better.


Of course if you knew that this kid spent 2 years accumulating 10 jumps, his most recent jumps all 4 of them were over a year ago you would think differently. And you certainly would admit that if this person spent 8 Cat A jumps you would definatly think again how you would approach this. But your opinions of how your skill is what you mentioned first. I already know this it's how so many others respond and this stereotype of pushing or passing students to get their "A" s for a number of reasons that has led to what in my opinion is a less optimum and safe way of thinking.

I see so many students that as the first thing they mention is their perception of themselves and the things they compare themselves to. I have seen more than a few students go on benders when they have been told they need to repeat a level or before they progress they need to master the current level, all of this is perceived as very negative, some students have quit. I'm interested in why some of these stereotypes to the detriment of skydiving exist. And point out how we think has led to this situation.

Thank you for letting me use you as a bit of a punching bag. I know you will survive. :)
C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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It's about how you responded.

As so many do it's about them not you. Again all I see are RED flags, there is absolutely noting positive about how this kid is being described, but instead of finding out more information,...the response is about how you can handle a particular situation. Do you get this point?



Of course I get the point..... That is why in my reply to the OP I stated:

"If he has a logbook, any AFFI should be able to look at where he is and create a program on the spot to finish his training. Now, I can't speak without seeing his logbook, but I think if he had 13-15 jumps in an STP program I would make him do a coach jump with me that started out as a level 4 (single JM, linked exit, release when earned, with a list of objectives like heading control (~3 seconds), 2 360's, and then maybe a backflip). If he did all of that, or even just showed control and awareness and was decent under canopy, I'd release him for *almost* self supervision: He would have to work with a coach, or do solo's with a gear check by a staff member till he showed competence. "

It is about the student. And that students history and his past performance.

Quote

Admitting that 2 JMs is a better way to go is very difficult for anyone to admit.



It is difficult to argue that two are better than one. You could argue the NEED all day. I have never needed a second JM. There are times I was glad one was there, but if I think I NEED two then I should turn in my rating to the nearest S&TA.

Quote

Of course if you knew that this kid spent 2 years accumulating 10 jumps, his most recent jumps all 4 of them were over a year ago you would think differently. And you certainly would admit that if this person spent 8 Cat A jumps you would definatly think again how you would approach this.



Which is why I said "I can't speak without seeing his logbook"

Quote

But your opinions of how your skill is what you mentioned first. I already know this it's how so many others respond and this stereotype of pushing or passing students to get their "A" s for a number of reasons that has led to what in my opinion is a less optimum and safe way of thinking.



No, I mentioned several other things and made no mention of "my skill" till after you made definitive comments about him needing to go to double JM Cat 'A' jumps.

Quote

Thank you for letting me use you as a bit of a punching bag. I know you will survive.



Eh, I'll survive.

My only issue here is you making a few completely false comments:

1. Lets get one thing clear, at a minimum he starts with a Cat A jump.
2. he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point
3. This isn't really debatable

All three of those comments are incorrect. You may WISH them to be correct, but that does not make it true.

Read this again and see how I am not taking into account his logbook information and other factors in his lack of currency... Remember that I am involved with a program that uses single JM AFF. How would this guy be any more dangerous than a guy that has only done tandems? Fact is that if this guy has a logbook with 10 solo's in it then he is much less likely to freak out than the guy that has only done tandems.

"If he has a logbook, any AFFI should be able to look at where he is and create a program on the spot to finish his training. Now, I can't speak without seeing his logbook, but I think if he had 13-15 jumps in an STP program I would make him do a coach jump with me that started out as a level 4 (single JM, linked exit, release when earned, with a list of objectives like heading control (~3 seconds), 2 360's, and then maybe a backflip). If he did all of that, or even just showed control and awareness and was decent under canopy, I'd release him for *almost* self supervision: He would have to work with a coach, or do solo's with a gear check by a staff member till he showed competence. "

The fact is that the difference between an L4 and a L1 (without counting the other JM) is pretty simple. If the guy is soup on a stick, I never release him or dump him out if it is that bad. So every L4 starts out as an L1 and the EARN the release.

Say for example that a guy shows up without a logbook. How do you think I would move forward from there?

Say the guy shows up with a logbook and his last jump was an L6 and it was a soup sandwich.... How do you think I would move FWD from there?

Lets say the guy shows up and has a logbook and the last jump was supposedly last week at another DZ and he passed and is now on L5, the first no hold exit. How do you think I will move FWD from there?

Here are my answers:
No logbook = L1
L6 soup = L4 start
L5 current from another DZ = First I'd call the DZ. Then I would most likely still start with an L4 start.

Like I said my only issue was your making statements of fact that are only opinion. I am not going to debate that one AFFI is better than two because that is just not debatable. I will debate if two are NEEDED and neither of us are the law when it comes to that answer.

Someone else asked a question and I did not see you answer.
What instructional ratings do you currently hold?
How many instructional jumps or recurrence jumps have you done?

And I'll add: Have you ever done a single JM AFF program?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I lov ya man, I really do, But your reacting,...

Can't say I blame ya, it is a very difficult concept to grasp which is why this way of thinking has persisted for so long.


I made my first jumps in the 70s. Dan Pointer, and Ted Strong taught me to pack. They took time to do this in between running their company, during the middle of the day in a series of protracted lessons, and all for free!!!

I learned some free fall skills in a true club atmosphere with the other JM's and basically they all donated their time. I didn't even pay for their slots!

There was a slow progression, everything was about learning to be the best you could be. There were lot's of repeats and skill building exercises. Learning to skydive was a positive experience and having 2 JM's during the beginning of AFF was the goal and rule more so than otherwise. There were no negative connotations.

Let me point something out, and I hope the OP and a few students follow along:

This isn't nostalgia or pining for the old days, nor were the old days different, in fact with the advances in gear our gear killed us on a more regular basis. But we did think differently about instruction and our attitudes were in fact different.

This is something you wrote:

"It is difficult to argue that two are better than one. You could argue the NEED all day. I have never needed a second JM. There are times I was glad one was there, but if I think I NEED two then I should turn in my rating to the nearest S&TA."

I am not arguing about you, or the facts, or even your opinion about one V two JM's. I am trying to point out how you think about something effects the outcome. You have placed great value on your skills, rightly so BTW, but in this value statement the implication is and has a negative connotation to it when you point out the comments about turning in your rating. Why would anyone say this, about "NEED" (ing) two? Considering you admit that, "I was glad one was there..." when speaking about two JM's?

It isn't about one or two it's about how we think when it comes to skydiving instruction.

I think when you understand why you said:
"There are times I was glad one was there." you will be ready to leave this place, Grasshopper. ( A cute reference to an older TV show. Kung Fooo ) Understanding this may bring you to a different place.


There is a larger picture here and it comes from a place of thinking about what is the best and what is positive as compared with: Money, or a place of minimum standards, and rushing to get stuff done and these comparisons of progressing at an artificial rate.

C

Who am I ?

"I am the wind, I am the rain, I am the meaning of life,..."

I am no one.
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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But your reacting,...



I am reacting to you making blanket statements and acting like they should be law. Nothing more.

1. Lets get one thing clear, at a minimum he starts with a Cat A jump.
2. he / she is required to repeat a Cat A at this point
3. This isn't really debatable

Quote

I made my first jumps in the 70s. Dan Pointer, and Ted Strong taught me to pack. They took time to do this in between running their company, during the middle of the day in a series of protracted lessons, and all for free!!!

I learned some free fall skills in a true club atmosphere with the other JM's and basically they all donated their time. I didn't even pay for their slots!

There was a slow progression, everything was about learning to be the best you could be. There were lot's of repeats and skill building exercises. Learning to skydive was a positive experience and having 2 JM's during the beginning of AFF was the goal and rule more so than otherwise. There were no negative connotations.



I have spent many days on a DZ coaching people for free. I have done AFF for free, I have taken up tandems for free, I have coached teams for free. None of that makes me better than anyone else and has NOTHING to do with your opinions and you treating them as fact.

Quote

I think when you understand why you said:
"There are times I was glad one was there." you will be ready to leave this place, Grasshopper. ( A cute reference to an older TV show. Kung Fooo ) Understanding this may bring you to a different place.



I understood that before I typed it. And it changes nothing about you acting like your opinions are fact.

Again I ask:
What instructional ratings do you currently hold?
What rating have you held?
How many instructional jumps or recurrence jumps have you done?
Have you been an AFFI in a single JM AFF program?

I ask because you are making statements and acting like those statements are FACT, when they are only opinion. It would be nice to know why you think your opinion should be treated as fact.

If you are unwilling to answer those simple questions.... I see no point in trying to continue this discussion.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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bialicki

To make a long story short I have a friend from Kuwait. I met him while going though STP training at Spaceland, TX he completed 13-15 jumps and I believe the story was he got a little freaked out under canopy because of turbulence. I got a message from him the other day asking about DZ's around me and if there was one I recommend. Being as I live in a area where DZ's only run on weekends and a part of the country where weather holds are more common then a sunny day I pointed him to places in FL.

Now the real questions is with 13-15 jump under his belt... if he was to go to a place like Zhills or maybe just a smaller DZ how would they fit him into their program? Could he take an AFF class make a coached jump and then be out on his own till his 25 jumps where complete?

Any and all advice is welcome!




YES, bialicki,

come to Zhills and they will fit him into a program! I don't think the size of the DZ matters as much as the quality of instruction and your friends motivation.

Glad to see he is doing something he enjoys!!!:)

C


Ron: Hate to drag this one up: AFFI

You can get a rating in a couple of days. Generally less than 6 hours is spent on learning how to teach or anything to do with teaching, everything is on having the necessary air skills.

Most hairdressers have hundreds of hours of classroom experience, and hundreds of hours of practical experience. But somehow having a rating is that important to you so you can make a judgment??? This is something that I fail to understand considering we haven't even taken this kid off the ground yet? This discussion isn't about skills in the air.

No disrespect to any hairdresser. But making comparisons about holding a rating isn't the topic of discussion. Nor is it a requirement to have a discussion. One of the big messages I'm trying to point out is in fact concentrating on the message, the messenger is in fact sometimes worthy of killing.

Kindergarten teachers spend thousands of hours getting their ratings, skydiving's requirements to teach are just about spend a weekend or two and that's about it.

That's not saying much about those who ask for credentials when were not speaking about in air skills.
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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This hapless soul who started this conversation, :S is going to learn something at my DZ, if I hear the mixed up tale first hand and in the same sentence they tell me about their currency they will be doing a Cat A again. They are going to have fun, and we are going to do this even if we have to find a reserve side at our cost, the ground school is open if he choses to take it, which of course we will strongly recommend. This kid has everything to gain from increased instruction, lots of practice, and two JM's stack the deck in everyone's favor. This is the way it's going to be! FACT. Or he is free to find a place where he can squeak by with the minimum amount of training at a place run by money hungry AFFi's who's only interest is the cash and where is the next "video or tandem." Which is unfortunately about 80 percent of most American dz's in this day and age.

I really wouldn't want to be a student at many of these places.

Students need to learn they do in fact have choices, difficult as this may be. And they also need to understand that they need to seek out places where the first priority is not getting them in the air in six hours or less. And they also need to understand there are better places to jump if they find themselves on the ground, waiting hours for their instructor who is off doing tandems or video.
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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Ok, I'll ask again.
What instructional ratings do you currently hold?
How many instructional jumps or recurrence jumps have you done?
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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