Crossbraces at low wingloadings

[ridebmxbikes 0]

ok so I may catch some crap for this post but here it goes. I've been jumping a katana for a little while now gave my rig to my rigger for some work and jump on a friends velo loaded about 1.5. Now I know Crossbraces arnt really needed till higher loadings but the velo is such an awesome canopy even at lighter loadings. The recovery arc is close to the same so what would be the harm in having a velo vs a katana?

[mjosparky 3]

ridebmxbikes

ok so I may catch some crap for this post but here it goes. I've been jumping a katana for a little while now gave my rig to my rigger for some work and jump on a friends velo loaded about 1.5. Now I know Crossbraces arnt really needed till higher loadings but the velo is such an awesome canopy even at lighter loadings. The recovery arc is close to the same so what would be the harm in having a velo vs a katana?

You didn’t mention what size and loading our Katana is. The fact you are asking the question should be all the answer you need. Not meant to be “shit” just an observation.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skybum1 0]

What size Katana? W/L?

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Spark- the reason Im asking is because other than the scary openings of the Crossbraces the recovery arc of the velo doesn't seem any more dangerous than the katana. The riser pressures have switched sides . Still able to out float most people and way more slow speed lift. Which the velo didn't seem to propose any more risk than the katana which is why Im reaching out to you guys. I was flying a katana 120 loaded at 1.3 which I have the most experience on. Recently put about 20 on a Stiletto 107 @1.48, 5 jumps on a 93 fx @ 1.7 and then I jumped the velo 103 @ 1.55ish. The velo makes me want to never flyanother fx again. I was really looking for another katana but after the velo, why not?

[DocPop 1]

IMO no harm at all.

If you can handle a Katana then a similarly loaded VE should be manageable. To me the VE feels like the wing the KA should be - similar dive, but faster, cleaner and more responsive.

Downsides to the Velo? Pack volume and cost spring to mind immediately. Also the fact that because they are only made up to 120 size, there is a limit to how low a WL you can go.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[skybum1 0]

Can't say that I had a crossbrace opening scare me anymore than a tandem sniveling thru 2500'. Did you ever try wearing weights with your Katana before downsizing to the smaller canopies?

"Remember to be nice to people on your way up cause you meet them on your way down." Jimmy D.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Yes, I've worn up to 16lbs of weights anytime I've done crew because most people I do crew with have highly loaded velos and I need it just to keep up with them. My swoops were good with the weights too

[Zlew 0]

DocPop

IMO no harm at all.

If you can handle a Katana then a similarly loaded VE should be manageable. .

120 to a 103 is, IMO, not close enough to consider it similar sized. That's 400 jumps, planform change and two downsizes (VE- 120-111-103)

The 20 jumps on the 107 Stiletto equate to almost nothing. Dive on A stiletto is sooooo much shorter than a KA or VE, and 20 jumps isn't much. Call me overly cautious, but 400 jumps, going down 2 sizes and to a cross braced design isn't the best road to take.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Doc- I grew up on a sabre, tried a katana and thought it was the best canopy out there. I've done up to 180's with it but kick ass at 90's. Some of the heavily loaded velo guys doing 270's don't get that much more than me when they do do a good swoop. After I sold my katana I had a downsized Stiletto till I could find another katana. Can't find one to save my life. Saw a 93 fx on a shelf in great condition for 300 and bought it. Sent it off with the rigger to get longer steering lines( I like mine set REALLY long) borrowed a 103 velo and am interested in upsizing to a velo 103 which my friend is trying to sell to me(which is the whole point of this conversation) or should I just keep looking for the katana. I'm not really into the fx even though I like the speed its not what I was looking for. Didn't know if there were any added dangers of a Crossbrace loaded lightly ( 1.55) when the dive and recovery arc aressimilar.thought I've taken basic and 2 advanced canopy courses I've learned hp canopy flight off here. I've read every thread pertaining to canopy control and learned who are the sensible one actually giving good info. Read so much I know Ian likes pink houses. I've taken advice from people I know and have only gotten hurt. Not from everyone but the any truly local knowledgeable person I know isn't around too often which is why I come to you guys.(doc, sparky , Ian, chuck, davekapela and a few others) I know what you say has a heavy weight.well I know doc is somewhat new and just moved to a velo but he does know the transition.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Zlew

going down 2 sizes and to a cross braced design isn't the best road to take.

Like I've said I've had excessive weight for a w/l of 1.44 and a 103 is only .6 difference. But what is that crossbrace design. I know its designed for high w/l but what's the extra danger of it when its loaded light (1.52) for its design when another canopy that noone bats and eyelashes to compared like the katana dives the same amount?

[Zlew 0]

If you were my friend, I'd tell you it's a bad idea to make that jump in canopies. Will it be instant death? nope...but your risk goes up considerably at your jump level going from a 120 KA to a VE103.

But if you were my friend I'd also say you are a big boy, and it's your ass on the line, not mine.

Why I say it's a bad idea- I don't think at 400 jumps you can have enough experience (lead or no lead) to really know that Katana well enough to have it translate to the Velo.

The Katana is by far the most aggressive non-cross braced wing I've jumped. I have one now, and you are right, the dive and recovery are very similar between my 107 and my 96 (riser pressure is another story, but once you get them going...they are similar).

Just man to man... If you were one of my friends at the DZ asking me about this I would say to dial it back... get some more time on the Katana, then work your way down.

The VE is my favorite canopy ever. It is a fucking machine, and if you get a few jumps on it, you won't want to go back to something else. It will do exactly what you tell it to do, and if you tell it to blow your femurs out your ass, it won't hesitate or ask you to clarify. Just understand your risk level is high at that experience jumping that wing (it's high under the KA too...).

I've seen lots of people justify why the downsize is a good idea (me being one of them), and I've seen it go both ways. No problems... and chopper rides.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Zlew you are one of the people I forgot to mention. Maybe ill talk ti a friend and see if he'll let me try his katana 107. Going back to a quick recovering non diving canopy isn't an option though. At this phase Im trying anything and everything as you can see in my posts but minimum requirements is responsiveness and long dive. I'm definitely already taking a step back from what I just bought. I feel like I can handle it but don't want to find out I can't the hard way. I didn't feel like a 103 was really pushing it but maybe it was just because I jumped the 93 before it. Idk . I'm definitely going to evaluate the size choises. But Im having a really problem understanding if you are on your way to a velo, and a velo flys good at a light loading, and you are use to a katana. Then why now make the platform change at a lighter loading before you get to 1.8 on a katana and then go to a velo( platform change) @2.0?

[Zlew 0]

You've been in the sport for 1 year according to your profile. That (hopefully) means you haven't had the pleasure of feeling the shock wave through the ground as one of your friends blows up their body. You hopefully don't know many people who are now para/quadriplegic from bad landings. Hopefully you haven't had time to see what a floopy femur or squishy pelvis looks like...and never started running to help someone you just saw thunder in and had those few seconds to prepare yourself to see a dead body.

I've experienced all that, and every time it happens I think to myself... am I doing the right things to make sure it's not my friends/family standing over me telling me it will be ok, then turning over their shoulder screaming for someone to call 911.
Can happen to any of us man, but what's the rush? Why push it?

By any standard jumping a Velo at 400 jumps, regardless of wing loading is aggressive. Most will probably tell you that your current wingloding on the KA and Stietto are aggressive and beyond BG's recommendations.

If you want something that dives and is responsive. The KA does all of that. spend next season on a reasonably sized KA (i don't know you...and I don't know what size that would be... 120...107.... bigger? fak i don't know) but put some time under a less aggressive wing... fuck up on it... live to talk about it.. .and next season decide if you are ready to get another wing.

random bold for effect :)
Z

[mjosparky 3]

Zlew

You've been in the sport for 1 year according to your profile. That (hopefully) means you haven't had the pleasure of feeling the shock wave through the ground as one of your friends blows up their body. You hopefully don't know many people who are now para/quadriplegic from bad landings. Hopefully you haven't had time to see what a floopy femur or squishy pelvis looks like...and never started running to help someone you just saw thunder in and had those few seconds to prepare yourself to see a dead body.

I've experienced all that, and every time it happens I think to myself... am I doing the right things to make sure it's not my friends/family standing over me telling me it will be ok, then turning over their shoulder screaming for someone to call 911.
Can happen to any of us man, but what's the rush? Why push it?

By any standard jumping a Velo at 400 jumps, regardless of wing loading is aggressive. Most will probably tell you that your current wingloding on the KA and Stietto are aggressive and beyond BG's recommendations.

If you want something that dives and is responsive. The KA does all of that. spend next season on a reasonably sized KA (i don't know you...and I don't know what size that would be... 120...107.... bigger? fak i don't know) but put some time under a less aggressive wing... fuck up on it... live to talk about it.. .and next season decide if you are ready to get another wing.

random bold for effect :)
Z

This is good advice. Fly your KA until you can't wring anything else out of it. It isn’t a race and there is no prize for being first to the ground. I watched JC Colclasure do things with a Sabre 190 that would blow your mind. It’s not the canopy that makes it work it’s the pilot. Last long enough to be that pilot.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[topdocker 0]

ridebmxbikes

Yes, I've worn up to 16lbs of weights anytime I've done crew because most people I do crew with have highly loaded velos and I need it just to keep up with them. My swoops were good with the weights too

Wait! What?!?! CRW police just showed up.... Do you peruse the incidents forum much??

Please tell me you are getting very good instructions about HP CF and know full well the gear you are jumping is increasing your risks dramatically.

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[craigbey 0]

A post from someone you know...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4544148#4544148

Quote

Well the best answer is learn to fly the he'll out of the canopy you have now before downsizing but you are most likely gonna do what you want anyway. Id print out the canopy survival skills and the downsizing checklist if you are thinking about downsizing and go over them. Also none here has seen you fly your canopy. Talk to you instructors if they think you'll be ok. But I wouldn't put stand up landings as a sign to go smaller. You could probably figure out how to stand up a velo 96 in about 5 jumps, it doesn't mean you'll be ok in an oh ship situation.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Zlew- I should change my profile to 2 years in sport. I haven't experienced that shockwave, I've seen some bad injuries do none were close friends and and they weren't life threating. You have said some deep words and I don't want my friends to have to stand over me in worry. I will try to find another katana and try to stay away from the velo for a while.

Topdocker- I have seen the the incident reports but not before I actually did it. I've only made a hand full docks but Im mostly filming it. Some of my crw was part of a canopy course. It was suppose to be no contact but it just didn't work out like we planned.as I have gone smaller since then and in light of the recent wraps Im just gonna stick to filming it.

Craigbey- that's cheating

[topdocker 0]

ridebmxbikes

Zlew- I should change my profile to 2 years in sport. I haven't experienced that shockwave, I've seen some bad injuries do none were close friends and and they weren't life threating. You have said some deep words and I don't want my friends to have to stand over me in worry. I will try to find another katana and try to stay away from the velo for a while.

Topdocker- I have seen the the incident reports but not before I actually did it. I've only made a hand full docks but Im mostly filming it. Some of my crw was part of a canopy course. It was suppose to be no contact but it just didn't work out like we planned.as I have gone smaller since then and in light of the recent wraps Im just gonna stick to filming it.

Craigbey- that's cheating

I understand, and we do some canopy touching as part of our course. Be mindful of the fact that in a wrap a HP canopy will be loaded over 4:1 and most likely be spiraling hard. Decisions need to be made before the G-forces make anything impossible.

We use modified JFX's and have had pretty good successes with them. Very stable and predictable, without the nose and corner softness that come with other canopies. If you ever venture out to Norcal, let me know, we will show you what we have done.

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[ridebmxbikes 0]

Yeah, I can only imagine what a wrap would be like. The thought is pretty scary. Thanks for the invite too but it may be a while before I venture that far... There's sooo much to do and sooo many places to go in this sport. Buying aother canopy is one expense I can think of.

Edited to remove a statement that was already answered

[topdocker 0]

ridebmxbikes

ok so I may catch some crap for this post but here it goes. I've been jumping a katana for a little while now gave my rig to my rigger for some work and jump on a friends velo loaded about 1.5. Now I know Crossbraces arnt really needed till higher loadings but the velo is such an awesome canopy even at lighter loadings. The recovery arc is close to the same so what would be the harm in having a velo vs a katana?

Harm? Not sure, the canopy was not designed to fly at that wingloading. If it flies okay at the wingloading you have, then its okay.

BUT, do you have the experience in as many situations you can think of and a few your more imaginative friends can think of to handle that canopy?

The limiting factor is not the wingloading, its your ability to fly that canopy safely for yourself and those around you. Unless you can fulfill all the performance requirements to downsize on the Katana, the Velo is not a good idea. You can compromise your safety all you want, but please think about how your canopy choice may injure or kill completely innocent jumpers.

This being DZ.com, someone will come along and tell you its okay and we are just holding you back.

Be the guy that is smart enough to save his own life with better gear selection.

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[Trafficdiver 8]

Out of curiosity...why do you want to push it so far, so fast?

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Well like I said the I've only jumped the velo 103 once and it just really felt like a great canopy without any extra danger from the also ground hungry katana which was why I was asking. Even though I've only got 400 jumps I've been on a 120 now for 300 of them(started on a 135) and wanted something more responsive. I figured a 103 wasn't that far off from a 107. I really wasn't trying to push anything.

[DocPop 1]

Zlew

120 to a 103 is, IMO, not close enough to consider it similar sized. That's 400 jumps, planform change and two downsizes (VE- 120-111-103)

The post where he elaborated on the size was posted while I was writing mine so I didn't have that info.

However, PD recommend that if you're going from a 120 Katana to a Velocity then you should try the 103.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Yeah I've read that before in your next step post awhile back and that's another reason I didn't see a real problem with it. Its not the only time I've seen that posted either

[jacketsdb23 45]

ridebmxbikes

Even though I've only got 400 jumps I've been on a 120 now for 300 of them(started on a 135) and wanted something more responsive. I figured a 103 wasn't that far off from a 107. I really wasn't trying to push anything.

You really have no idea what you are getting into then.

Anything below a 150 is a HP canopy by definition. You've only jumped HP canopies. You are missing steps, by passing experience, and the fact that you don't think you are pushing anything tells us everything we need to know.

At least recognize that you are pushing the limits and understand the consequences. Then tell us you are only doing hop n' pops so that if you fuck up you are only hurting yourself.

You'll probably be fine, but seriously, understand that in fact you ARE pushing it. Jumping a HP canopy, especially a velo, takes experience, competence, and accountability. Competence and accountability start with a good and realistic attitude.

Good luck and Blue skies. Cheers.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.