How to respond to a very serious incident at the DZ as a non medic ?

[shorehambeach 9]

So here I am just doing my downwind leg and the jumper in front of me does a low hook turn and gets very messed up. (multiple injuries)

We are all landing a short truck ride away from the main buildings as that the way this USA DZ is set up

I land pretty close (unaware that the incident has happened) and his jump buddy is screaming "If your not medically trained GET THE F*CK OUT I MEAN IT GET THE F*CK AWAY.

OK, we all react differently - difficult to see your jump buddy screwed up - I understand his rage.

The DZ and staff are on the radios and help is on its way.

Amazingly a guy landing from his first solo (welcome to skydiving) is a medic.

I set my brakes, gather my canopy and wait in the truck.

I think I am answering my own question but what should have i done ?

[trigger 0]

Product of the times we live in sadly.

Help, with all the good intentions in the world and someone wants to sue your ass.

Very tough situation as walking away goes against human nature.

Personally, help as best you can, even if its providing some shade from the sun.

That said if there's qualified and able people around it's best to keep out of the way and simply let them do what they're trained to do.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[ufk22 32]

Bottom line is if you don't know anything about emergency medical procedures, you could do more harm than good.
I would recommend standing by in case your help is needed for transfer. If your help is asked for, ask what and how before doing anything.
The fact that his buddy was screaming is just an overreaction by someone under stress.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[topdocker 0]

At a lot of DZ's, there is a protocol for the staff to follow in the case of an accident. If you aren't trained to help, then stand a respectful distance away and see what you can do to help. Sometimes the best help is to go back to the hanger, sometimes its just carry one of the responder's gear back to the hanger, sometimes you can hold a canopy up to shade the injured from the sun. Do not go over there to gawk and certainly do not go over there to help if the sight of a femur through a jumpsuit will cause you to loose your breakfast, that doesn't help the victim, the responders, or you....

The bottom line is follow the instructions of the site leader. (And the guy yelling for people to stay away is not the site leader, just someone who is way overreacting to the situation.)

And be thankful it wasn't you....

top

Jump more, post less!

[grimmie 173]

There are many things a non first aid trained jumper can do to help out in an incident.
1. Stay calm and offer your help.
2. Follow the instructions of the trained person.
3. If no one is trained in first aid, keep the jumper from moving around until help arrives.
4. Many time we need help for shade and lugging first aid gear.
5. If they don't want or need your help, stay clear.
6. Did I mention stay calm.


At Perris years ago I was the only first aid trained person at the DZ. A friend hooked it in on a new downsized canopy. He was bleeding to death from open bi lateral femur fractures. His teammates, all good friends of mine, stayed very calm and followed instructions, applying pressure to stop the bleeding and helping keep him down. A simple step, but it saved him. He had a head injury and was violent when he regained consciousness.

This is why I urge all skydivers to take at least a basic first aid course.

I also urge all DZ's to have an emergency plan.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

When I was seriously hurt years ago, someone (an asshole that wanted to be in charge of everything) was the second person to get to me. I was consious but hurt pretty bad. This person insisted he needed to "get me out of my rig before the ambulance gets here". I told him to please not move me! He insisted my rig had to come off. I told him to "leave me the fuck alone!!! He still insisted and started undoing straps.

A good friend (Greg) arrived about this time and asked how he could help? I told him to get the asshole away from me. Now Greg is about 6' 1", 210lbs. He grabbed said asshole by the shirt collar and had to literally pick him up off the ground to move him away.

As it turned out, I had serious back injuries. But, thanks to Greg, no spinal injuries. Sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[ridebmxbikes 0]

This is a really great thread! As a non medic trained jumper I just try to help by staying out of the way. IfIm first on the scene I would just try to keep the injured calm, go get help and or just get out the way when someone trained gets there. Usually anytime I see one get hurt they have 20 people just start running over. They don't need me

[catfishhunter 1]

For me I am the LAST RESORT. I'm not helping at all unless I am the only one that can. I am not the person for medical emergency's I could force myself if there was no other option but knowing and accepting my abilities means I am moving away the minute I am not desperately needed.

I agree everyone should have basic first aid training and I've had quite a bit at one time way back when and it would be good to have a some refreshers for that hopefully never occurring accident where I am the only person available to render aid.

And as for the dude freaking out see my first paragraph. He probably falls into that category and should come to grips with his own abilities and stay the fuck out of the way himself. Staying calm is nearly as important if not more important then anything else your doing.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I think I am answering my own question but what should have i done ?

It depends.

I've been at DZs where doctors stand around doing nothing after an accident because there are enough more experienced doctors and emergency medics around to deal with the situation.

I've also been at remote BASE accidents where everyone on site needs to pitch in until help arrives.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[flygirl1220 0]

grimmie

There are many things a non first aid trained jumper can do to help out in an incident.
1. Stay calm and offer your help.
2. Follow the instructions of the trained person.
3. If no one is trained in first aid, keep the jumper from moving around until help arrives.
4. Many time we need help for shade and lugging first aid gear.
5. If they don't want or need your help, stay clear.
6. Did I mention stay calm.

Very, very, good advice! One other thing to add is once there are medically trained people there if they do not need the extra help. Then help the friend that is freaking out. Not always easy and not always possible since everyone responds to stress differently. But sometimes getting a very stressed person to step back from emergency responders so they can do their jobs is a huge help.

[grimmie 173]

http://vimeo.com/36629075

EMS training we hosted for Skydive Elsinore a couple of years ago. Fast forward to the 1 hour mark for the gear removal portion.

I am hosting this at my DZ in Oceanside this month for the OFD and REACH AIR medivac helicopter crews and hopefully at Skydive San Diego soon with their EMS locals and Mercy Air Helicopter crews. The closest five fire stations to both Perris and Elsinore have all had this training along with Mercy Air crews.

Skydive Perris can now bypass the 911 system and phone Mercy Air direct. We worked with the Eloy FD years ago and now they can radio the Eloy FD dispatch directly.

Good emergency planning at your local DZ will save someone someday.

If you need help setting anything up for your DZ, or have any questions, send me a message.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

As it turned out, I had serious back injuries. But, thanks to Greg, no spinal injuries. Sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing.

If you have the training cover the ABC’s and do nothing more but monitor. Even if you are a current Paramedic, without equipment and radio contact there is nothing more you can do.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ChuckMartin 0]

Long answer:
When I was in the Marines I went to a TON of medical courses. They even gave me time off to go take a month long EMT course. So from the view point of somebody that can help I would say just stand back and try not to get in the way. People always want to help and that is awesome but it makes it harder sometimes. Not only do I have to deal with somebody that got hurt by now I also have to deal with their friends and family members getting in the way. I was on a date with my now wife about 8 months ago and as we were driving back a car speeding hit a power line poll did some rolls and then stopped. It was dark and what I learned later to be transformer oil was all over the place and sparks were going off, one of the worst crashes I have seen. I stop and walk over to the car and see somebody pulling somebody else out. Turns out the car had 4 drunk teenage girls in it and the driver was pulling out her girlfriend. As I am telling her to leave her inside but she does not listen and pulls her from the car before I could get over to her. About a minute later another guy that is also an EMT stops to help also but instead of both of us helping my giving medical attention to the girls he had to physically hold back the driver because she kept trying to push us away and lay on top of/ pick up the head of/ kiss ect.... her girlfriend. We did not ever know there were two more girls in the back seat for a few minutes because we both had things we had to deal with. They all survived with some minor to major injuries but it could have been a lot worse.

People always feel like they need to do something and sometimes you have to tell people something to do just to get them away from you and make them think they are helping. Even in a basic CPR class you will learn to point at somebody and tell them to call the police because of the "bystander effect" people think that somebody else is going to call the police. I even told a woman once that she had to call the police and get help here (police and EMT's were already there) she didn't even think twice and went and did it. Thinking back on it now it was not the best idea I ever had. Not that a 911 call center can only take one call at a time but it still added to what they had to deal with. In country when people see their friends go down some of them lose their mind and become useless. Others don't react at all, and some zone out. Everybody is different and it depends on who it happens to. You are going to care way more when it's your best friend or a close family member.

Short answer:
Stay out of the way, and if you can make sure other people stay out of the way.

[yoink 321]

catfishhunter

And as for the dude freaking out see my first paragraph. He probably falls into that category and should come to grips with his own abilities and stay the fuck out of the way himself. Staying calm is nearly as important if not more important then anything else your doing.

this is something that should be covered in Safety Day training.

Not just 'what to do if you see someone get injured', but a whole section on 'what to expect if you see YOUR friend get injured'.

You'll be in shock.
You probably won't be thinking clearly.
For 99% of people the best thing they can do is hand off the scene to someone else.

[davelepka 4]

As others have mentioned, defer to medically trained people, be available to help them if they ask, but otherwise look for a non-medical way to make yourself useful.

Gear needs to be dealt with, secured (if it's windy) or moved/hauled in. Crowds need to be controlled. You can hold up a canopy to shade the injured/responders. Has someone called an ambulance? Is there someone standing by the road to direct the ambulance to the scene? Is there a clear path for the ambulance to the injured? If not, is there a clear path for the medics to get in/out on foot?

We had a jumper land hard behind a line of heavy brush. Some jumpers were able to wiggle through, asses his condition, and call the ambulance, but there was no way a medic with gear and a stretcher was getting in there, so I organized a handful of jumpers to grab shovels etc from the hanger and clear a path. I'm not medically trained for anything, but I can do yard work like a pro, and it turned out to be a valuable asset.

[Krip 2]

Hi Sparky

We were jumping on military base and a first jump student went in with a pilot chute in tow.

We had a SF medic jumping with us. He didn't hesitate, ran over and tried to give her CPR.

Medics, corpsmen, first responders, are the real deal.

R.

[shorehambeach 9]

Dave and all the other posters who replied - Thank you very much.

[DrDom 0]

As an ER doc I'm hoping to put something together and teach for free to some DZs in the area. I do a class called "Injury and Illness at Sporting events" for lay rescuers in the community, but its far from specific to skydiving (gear and such varies).

The most important things are:
Step Zero: DO NOT try and rescue someone if it is dangerous to do so. Nothing is worse than a single victim becoming a mass casualty incident.
1) CALL EMS EARLY. Seriously. If you aren't 100% sure you should call (EMS does not mind being called off)
2) Do not move the person unless they are in imminent danger of death from another cause (power lines, drowning, fire, wild animals, etc)
3) Prevent them from moving their head. Immobilize them in place if possible using your hands.
4) If they are not breathing, you can try a "jaw thrust" (google it). You lift the jaw without moving the neck. There is a high likelihood of neck injury with typical skydiving injuries. You could potentially paralyze someone if you move them.
5) If they vomit or have blood in their mouth and can not breathe you may need to "log roll" them while supporting their neck. It is a rare time you may need to move someone. Roll them as a unit with help, practice beforehand.
6) If the injury is more mild remember "bones only bend at joints", if one is "bent" elsewhere do not move it, you can make a fracture much much worse as well as the pain
7) Control temperature. They may be in shock and unable to thermoregulate. If its cold warm them. If its warm get them in the shade.
8) give them NOTHING by mouth. Nothing.
9) Keep them calm, keep yourself calm, and be patient. It WILL feel like a lifetime.
10) You should ONLY remove gear if you are trained to do so. Let the responders do it. Consider disconnecting their main parachute via standard cutaway if possible, it gets one more variable out of the way.

There is a lot to it, the single best thing you can do is sort out who had medical training at your DZ (theres a lot of us out there) and ask if they can help teach. Most people in healthcare love to teach!

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[topdocker 0]

DrDom

As an ER doc I'm hoping to put something together and teach for free to some DZs in the area. I do a class called "Injury and Illness at Sporting events" for lay rescuers in the community, but its far from specific to skydiving (gear and such varies).

The most important things are:
Step Zero: DO NOT try and rescue someone if it is dangerous to do so. Nothing is worse than a single victim becoming a mass casualty incident.
1) CALL EMS EARLY. Seriously. If you aren't 100% sure you should call (EMS does not mind being called off)
2) Do not move the person unless they are in imminent danger of death from another cause (power lines, drowning, fire, wild animals, etc)
3) Prevent them from moving their head. Immobilize them in place if possible using your hands.
4) If they are not breathing, you can try a "jaw thrust" (google it). You lift the jaw without moving the neck. There is a high likelihood of neck injury with typical skydiving injuries. You could potentially paralyze someone if you move them.
5) If they vomit or have blood in their mouth and can not breathe you may need to "log roll" them while supporting their neck. It is a rare time you may need to move someone. Roll them as a unit with help, practice beforehand.
6) If the injury is more mild remember "bones only bend at joints", if one is "bent" elsewhere do not move it, you can make a fracture much much worse as well as the pain
7) Control temperature. They may be in shock and unable to thermoregulate. If its cold warm them. If its warm get them in the shade.
8) give them NOTHING by mouth. Nothing.
9) Keep them calm, keep yourself calm, and be patient. It WILL feel like a lifetime.
10) You should ONLY remove gear if you are trained to do so. Let the responders do it. Consider disconnecting their main parachute via standard cutaway if possible, it gets one more variable out of the way.

There is a lot to it, the single best thing you can do is sort out who had medical training at your DZ (theres a lot of us out there) and ask if they can help teach. Most people in healthcare love to teach!

I will add one:

If they are conscious, ask them their name, any allergies, if the have any medical issues, and if they are taking any medications. Speak calmly and slowly and in a friendly tone. The person may not be conscious when EMS arrives and that info can be critical.

I will tell you as a recent "patient," knowing help is coming is a HUGE mental help. Laying in the field, I knew my friends were coming, they would get the EMS activated, and that was powerful.

top

Jump more, post less!

[nadominhoca 0]

This is an excellent topic!

Despite the fact that we have some general guidelines and recommendations about the theme, every situation is different!! I had a similar experience playing soccer.. when someone got hurt and I was just near to the guy (not even touching or anything), and I got shit from his friend..

I work in the Oil Industry, more specifically in Drilling Rigs, and I've seen a lot of nasty stuff happening.. guys having their hands smashed, etc.. people getting hit by heavy equipment, and even people dying..

I really believe that if you can handle the situation, just being there, talking to the injured person to keep them awake, calm them, calm other people, carry equipment, bring water, shading, etc... can be a big help at the end of the day!!

Everything depends on how you react to the situation.. if you are not comfortable enough, leave the scene! If you can handle it, be there just in case!! Don't touch, don't move, don't do anything.. just be there!

I know that reactions varies based on each person, but having someone giving you shit for trying to help, is definitely not right! I would expect at least that after the whole thing, when things got more calm, to get the apology from this guys that gave you shit!

[DrDom 0]

Good call, Top!
Didnt even think of it, I get pretty spoiled by having that done at "triage" for me in the ER; but in EMS days its HUGE. Also, CONTACT INFO is big. I assume the waiver that the person signed has their medical history and such (mine did) so someone should get a copy of that and bring it or fax it to the receiving ER if known.

more info is better, all surgeries tend to have antibiotics given beforehand, being allergic to them just causes more problems. Their emergency contact is usually listed, either get that to the responders or call them yourself. It goes a long way... and there is no better feeling than waking up and seeing a loved one after cheating death.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[shropshire 0]

His 'jump buddy' does NOT have a point and should shut the fuck up and stay calm.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[DrDom 0]

Here is an interesting question for everyone...
Do "boogies" usually have standby ambulances? When I used to do sound reinforcement, some of the bigger music festivals (and some smaller ones) had an ambulance on standby. Most cities or states have rules to govern attendance and need for EMS.
Do people even notify local towns or hospitals?
More a curiosity since... believe it or not... I've seen more people hospitalized or dead at concerts than heard about from skydiving.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[kvnhlstd 0]

I learned a long time ago when I was cycling on the road to carry a road ID bracelet. All my contact info as well as my known allergies are on the bracelet. I would add to check for the bracelet on the wrist or ankle if the patient is unconscious or unable to answer questions.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

[NWFlyer 2]

DrDom

Here is an interesting question for everyone...
Do "boogies" usually have standby ambulances? When I used to do sound reinforcement, some of the bigger music festivals (and some smaller ones) had an ambulance on standby. Most cities or states have rules to govern attendance and need for EMS.
Do people even notify local towns or hospitals?
More a curiosity since... believe it or not... I've seen more people hospitalized or dead at concerts than heard about from skydiving.

Re: ambulances - I've seen them very rarely; typically, the rate of incidents in skydiving is so low that it doesn't pencil out, particularly when you look at the number of people at a big boogie (even the biggest these days are bringing in under 1000 jumpers). Contrast that with a big festival or concert with tens of thousands where you've got a big population and a high likelihood of dehydration or alcohol/drug related situations where having on-site medical personnel makes sense.

As grimmie and others have mentioned, some DZs have been very proactive at getting to know their local first responders and helping them understand the DZ environment and the potential mechanisms of injury, etc. Given the location of a lot of DZs, the local hospital is often a small community hospital that could easily handle the more straightforward injuries without complicating factors, but in the cases of severe trauma, people are being transported to a trauma center, which may not be all that "local" to the DZ.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke