EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[billvon 2,739]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:42 PM, gowlerk said:

Calling billvon, what is a "solid state battery" and is there any possibility of this happening on the stated timetable?

A solid state battery uses a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte.  They should be safer (dendrites have a harder time growing through a solid) but charge-carrier mobility problems remain, since charge carriers (ions) have more trouble moving through a solid than a liquid, which is a fairly obvious problem.  This results in lower overall power - but not capacity, which improves.  The electrolytes they are trying now are ceramics, glasses and materials like synthetic garnet.

[SkyDekker 1,294]

42 minutes ago, billvon said:

100 microwatts isn't enough to power a cellphone.  If they can get it to a watt it can - but that's a few years off, if they can do it at all.  I have doubts due to the physics of the problem.

True. However, I also have a feeling Oppenheimer didn't think what he was working on would power a cellphone either.

We always seem to think we are at the end of an improvement cycle.

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

3 hours ago, winsor said:

Yoyodyne should have their Oscillation Overthruster in production soon.

"The Future Begins Tomorrow!"

Yeah, but as John Bigbooty pointed out,  that overthruster is for shit.

[SkyDekker 1,294]

Wonder if this is Bill’s?

 

[JoeWeber 2,571]

17 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Wonder if this is Bill’s?

 

A neighbor had one of those on his wife's car. It's silly, sure. But sillier is what it reminds us: people too often tune their identity to what should be a transport machine. People are constantly giving up wealth and resources, their kids college funds, and staying in debt to drive a car they think impresses their friends and neighbors when maybe a million other people drive the same stupid car. A freakin' car. 

[brenthutch 420]

This is why I oppose EV subsidies 

[billvon 2,739]

3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Wonder if this is Bill’s?

Hey, like three people think my Prime is cool.

[olofscience 464]

23 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Instead of spending billions on cajoling an unwilling public, why don’t we go back to the drawing board develop the technology to the point where it can compete in the marketplace. 

Sure, just let the Chinese develop it so that when the west jumps in, it will be too late.

Didn't know you were so pro-Xi, comrade.

[brenthutch 420]

39 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Sure, just let the Chinese develop it so that when the west jumps in, it will be too late.

Didn't know you were so pro-Xi, comrade.

What part of “develop the technology” did you not understand my young friend?

Edited January 20 by brenthutch

[gowlerk 2,103]

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

Sure, just let the Chinese develop it so that when the west jumps in, it will be too late.

Didn't know you were so pro-Xi, comrade.

Because as a society we have made the judgement that we need the tech now and that it is worth the investment despite the small and deadender thinking of the deniers. Who are losing bigly and getting kind of angry about it.

[olofscience 464]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

What part of “develop the technology” did you not understand my young friend?

The part where you were dishonest about it.

[olofscience 464]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Because as a society we have made the judgement that we need the tech now and that it is worth the investment despite the small and deadender thinking of the deniers. Who are losing bigly and getting kind of angry about it.

Well we need it even faster. China's BYD has just overtaken Tesla as the biggest EV manufacturer.

Lots of brits here driving around in their MG EVs, Volvo EVs not having any idea that they're actually driving Chinese cars...

 

Or, do as Brent says, just slow down, relax, take a long, deep huff from that ICE exhaust pipe and make fun of EVs until the Chinese perfect solid-state battery tech. So it will be too late.

17 hours ago, billvon said:

A solid state battery uses a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte.  They should be safer (dendrites have a harder time growing through a solid) but charge-carrier mobility problems remain, since charge carriers (ions) have more trouble moving through a solid than a liquid, which is a fairly obvious problem.  This results in lower overall power - but not capacity, which improves.  The electrolytes they are trying now are ceramics, glasses and materials like synthetic garnet.

Solid-state tech should also fix the cold weather issues.

[brenthutch 420]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Because as a society we have made the judgement that we need the tech now and that it is worth the investment despite the small and deadender thinking of the deniers. Who are losing bigly and getting kind of angry about it.

You said that about coal

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/15/global-coal-use-to-reach-record-high-in-2023-iea#:~:text=The demand for coal is,a report released on Friday.

[lippy 869]

On 1/18/2024 at 9:29 AM, brenthutch said:

Show me

Been dealing with a family situation the past couple of days, but I see TK got back to you below.  You just keep trotting out the same talking points.  Millions of people drive EV's and like EV's.  They'll continue to make up a bigger share of vehicles sold, regardless of how much misinformation you spread on a skydiving forum.  

 

[kallend 1,827]

5 hours ago, olofscience said:

 

Solid-state tech should also fix the cold weather issues.

Ion diffusion in solids slows down when cold too.  Arrhenius stuff.

Edited January 20 by kallend

[brenthutch 420]

5 hours ago, lippy said:

Been dealing with a family situation the past couple of days, but I see TK got back to you below.  You just keep trotting out the same talking points.  Millions of people drive EV's and like EV's.  They'll continue to make up a bigger share of vehicles sold, regardless of how much misinformation you spread on a skydiving forum.  

 

Half of the folks who buy EVs go back to ICE vehicles on their next purchase. I don’t doubt EVs will continue to grow as a percentage of vehicles sold. However I think the rate of growth will continue to slow and eventually flatline at a level far too low to make the “Great EV transition” anything more than a lefty fantasy, while costing taxpayers billions. That is my problem with EVs, it is the billions to artificially prop up a technology that is not ready for prime time. We could be spending those resources on schools and homeless shelters.

BTW still waiting for you to refute “at least half” of my points 

 

Edited January 21 by brenthutch

[billvon 2,739]

9 hours ago, olofscience said:

Solid-state tech should also fix the cold weather issues.

Charge carrier mobility goes down at low temperatures, which is a problem with all batteries - but a bigger problem with solid state batteries since they start out with a limitation on charge carrier speed.  However since they can be made physically smaller you can put more battery elements in parallel, which reduces the problem of high cell resistance due to low charge carrier mobility.

[JoeWeber 2,571]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Charge carrier mobility goes down at low temperatures, which is a problem with all batteries - but a bigger problem with solid state batteries since they start out with a limitation on charge carrier speed.  However since they can be made physically smaller you can put more battery elements in parallel, which reduces the problem of high cell resistance due to low charge carrier mobility.

Like we all don't know that. 

[gowlerk 2,103]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

Like we all don't know that. 

At least he spares us the math involved and gives simplified explanations.

[JoeWeber 2,571]

44 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

At least he spares us the math involved and gives simplified explanations.

And for that triviality a Mod gave you a thumbs up. This place is going to hell.

[gowlerk 2,103]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

And for that triviality a Mod gave you a thumbs up. This place is going to hell.

Nice. You managed to insult both Wendy and myself and only needed an eleven word sentence to do it. You seldom fail to impress me.

Edited January 21 by gowlerk

[kallend 1,827]

8 hours ago, gowlerk said:

At least he spares us the math involved and gives simplified explanations.

D = Do exp(-Q/kT)

You're welcome.

[jakee 1,351]

On 1/18/2024 at 7:50 PM, brenthutch said:

“It’s well known that EVs lose some of their travel range in the cold, especially in subzero temperatures like those that hit the nation’s mid-section this week. Studies found that range loss varies from 10% to 36%. 

EVs also don’t charge as quickly in extreme cold. Some Tesla owners near Chicago told reporters their cars wouldn’t charge at all”

That’s not a problem with normal cars 

https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicle-charging-tesla-frigid-temperatures-2c85e3455d49a86c12d1ba59a235cd4b

'Normal' cars also sometimes don't work in extreme cold conditions. Oil and diesel turns to sludge. Batteries (yeah, ICE cars need those too) and starters don't work. So they get modified. For instance normal cars in Finland all have external power connecters which plug into power supplies in parking spaces to warm the engine and oil system before starting in the morning in winter. So as much as you may have run out of imagination before reaching a solution, warming up cold things so they work is not an insurmountable problem.

BTW - my petrol car loses a little over 10% of its fuel economy in winter and it's not even that cold here. That's just a thing to deal with that everyone has to deal with. 

[tkhayes 273]

21 hours ago, brenthutch said:

You said that about coal

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/15/global-coal-use-to-reach-record-high-in-2023-iea#:~:text=The demand for coal is,a report released on Friday.

from that article: "Coal use is set to drop by about 20 percent this year in both the European Union and the United States, the report said."

You seem surprised that underdeveloped countries have a hard time keeping up with the first world.....  cherry picking the headlines to suit your needs again I see?

[tkhayes 273]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

'Normal' cars also sometimes don't work in extreme cold conditions. Oil and diesel turns to sludge. Batteries (yeah, ICE cars need those too) and starters don't work. So they get modified. For instance normal cars in Finland all have external power connecters which plug into power supplies in parking spaces to warm the engine and oil system before starting in the morning in winter. So as much as you may have run out of imagination before reaching a solution, warming up cold things so they work is not an insurmountable problem.

BTW - my petrol car loses a little over 10% of its fuel economy in winter and it's not even that cold here. That's just a thing to deal with that everyone has to deal with. 

block heaters also are common in Western Canada, Alberta etc.  People in the far north, arctic etc often leave their vehicles running 24/7 as they may not start again when shut off, especially when it is -40 or below.