EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[lippy 869]

39 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Why would I want to do that? EVs are horrible. They cost more, they take forever to charge (if you can find a charging station), depreciate faster, cause more wear on tires and infrastructure, perform poorly in cold weather, are more expensive to repair, lack range, can’t tow, cost more to insure, require massive amounts of natural resources to produce, when they catch fire it is nearly impossible to extinguish and 80% of the electricity to charge them comes from fossil fuels, so they aren’t going to ‘save the planet’

At least half of those claims have been repeatedly debunked here, but you just keep on Brent'n

[brenthutch 420]

9 minutes ago, lippy said:

At least half of those claims have been repeatedly debunked here, but you just keep on Brent'n

Show me

[gowlerk 2,103]

I saw my first ever Cybertruck on the road yesterday. On an Interstate in North Dakota of all places. It was about 0 F out, snowy and the truck was looking kind of ugly covered with winter grime and salt. 

[JoeWeber 2,571]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Why would I want to do that? EVs are horrible. They cost more, they take forever to charge (if you can find a charging station), depreciate faster, cause more wear on tires and infrastructure, perform poorly in cold weather, are more expensive to repair, lack range, can’t tow, cost more to insure, require massive amounts of natural resources to produce, when they catch fire it is nearly impossible to extinguish and 80% of the electricity to charge them comes from fossil fuels, so they aren’t going to ‘save the planet’

Apparently you wouldn’t. For others thinking through how a competitor will solve a problem is a way of being successful. In this situation wouldn’t faster charging, lighter, longer range and cheaper batteries solve a lot of the problems? Can you imagine that as a possibility?

[gowlerk 2,103]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Apparently you wouldn’t. For others thinking through how a competitor will solve a problem is a way of being successful. In this situation wouldn’t faster charging, lighter, longer range and cheaper batteries solve a lot of the problems? Can you imagine that as a possibility?

There you go again with your lefty liberal fantasy dreamland.

[brenthutch 420]

43 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Apparently you wouldn’t. For others thinking through how a competitor will solve a problem is a way of being successful. In this situation wouldn’t faster charging, lighter, longer range and cheaper batteries solve a lot of the problems? Can you imagine that as a possibility?

Develop the lighter, faster charging, longer range and cheaper battery first.  We are putting the cart before the horse with nascent technology that belongs in research labs and not on the road.

Still waiting on Lippy’s reply 

Edited January 18 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,571]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Develop the lighter, faster charging, longer range and cheaper battery first.  We are putting the cart before the horse with nascent technology that belongs in research labs and not on the road.

Still waiting on Lippy’s reply 

You missed the point entirely. It was offered as a thought exercise. Some here will claim you didn’t disappoint. No matter, do you have any examples where a technology was perfected in advance of being introduced?

[SkyDekker 1,294]

41 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Develop the lighter, faster charging, longer range and cheaper battery first.  We are putting the cart before the horse with nascent technology that belongs in research labs and not on the road.

Still waiting on Lippy’s reply 

Exactly, why go to the moon when we can't even get to Mars yet.

[ryoder 1,556]

6 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Exactly, why go to the moon when we can't even get to Mars yet.

And the Wright Flyer was a dismal failure; It couldn't even do Mach1!

[brenthutch 420]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

You missed the point entirely. It was offered as a thought exercise. Some here will claim you didn’t disappoint. No matter, do you have any examples where a technology was perfected in advance of being introduced?

Perfected? No. But better than the technology it was replacing? Thousand of examples.

Edited January 18 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 420]

40 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Exactly, why go to the moon when we can't even get to Mars yet.

I expect better from you SkyDekker 

[SkyDekker 1,294]

37 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I expect better from you SkyDekker 

And I didn't expect you to defend a rapist....but here we are.

[brenthutch 420]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiWytqGzeeDAxUPkokEHTNwBzQQvOMEKAB6BAgTEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fnews%2Fteslas-electric-vehicles-cold-weather%2F&usg=AOvVaw3B_fCHHs8VCaFaH82CJDHr&opi=89978449

“some electric vehicle owners are learning a bitter truth: Low temperatures can stop the cars dead in their icy tracks.”

“I've been here for over five hours at this point, and I still have not gotten to charge my car," Tesla driver Brandon Welbourne told CBS Chicago. "A charge that should take 45 minutes is taking two hours."

This is why half of the country won’t even consider an EV and why half of EV owners go back to a ICE vehicle on their next purchase.

Edited January 18 by brenthutch

[olofscience 464]

51 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Perfected? No. But better than the technology it was replacing? Thousand of examples.

The first steam ships were much slower than the sailing ships of the day. They were only good for riverboats. The Brents of the day believed that sailing ships would never be replaced with anything better.

 

The first hydraulic shovels had much smaller capacity than cable-actuated shovels. Guess which one dominates the market now.

 

The first transistors could handle only a tiny fraction of the power that the best vacuum tubes could. RCA was like Brent - they kept betting on vacuum tubes, until it was too late.

 

The car companies probably learned from the examples above...I would have thought it's covered in the typical MBA curriculum.

Edited January 18 by olofscience

[gowlerk 2,103]

39 minutes ago, olofscience said:

The first steam ships were much slower than the sailing ships of the day. They were only good for riverboats. The Brents of the day believed that sailing ships would never be replaced with anything better.

In defense of Brent and the general dodging of the uncomfortable truth nearly completely ignored here, the fact is that steamships did not advance because governments promoted them. The technology was not subsidized. Today we have good reason to spend money from the public purse and form policies that give EVs an advantage not yet earned in the marketplace. EVs are not ready for prime time but we need them anyway. It is wrong to ignore that fact instead of facing it square on when confronting opposition.

[brenthutch 420]

“It’s well known that EVs lose some of their travel range in the cold, especially in subzero temperatures like those that hit the nation’s mid-section this week. Studies found that range loss varies from 10% to 36%. 

EVs also don’t charge as quickly in extreme cold. Some Tesla owners near Chicago told reporters their cars wouldn’t charge at all”

That’s not a problem with normal cars 

https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicle-charging-tesla-frigid-temperatures-2c85e3455d49a86c12d1ba59a235cd4b

[normiss 724]

Toyota must have heard the Brenting:

Last year, Toyota and oil refiner Idemitsu Kosan, said they would tie up to develop and mass produce all-solid-state batteries, which they aim to commercialize in 2027 and 2028, followed by full-scale mass production.

"We will be rolling out our electric vehicles with solid state batteries in a couple of years from now," said Vikram Gulati, the India head of Toyota Kirloskar Motor. It "will be a vehicle which will be charging in 10 minutes, giving a range of 1,200 kms (750 miles) and life expectancy will be very good".

[Phil1111 1,085]

26 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

“It’s well known that EVs lose some of their travel range in the cold, especially in subzero temperatures like those that hit the nation’s mid-section this week. Studies found that range loss varies from 10% to 36%. 

EVs also don’t charge as quickly in extreme cold. Some Tesla owners near Chicago told reporters their cars wouldn’t charge at all”

That’s not a problem with normal cars 

https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicle-charging-tesla-frigid-temperatures-2c85e3455d49a86c12d1ba59a235cd4b

Odd that so many are running around in Canada, and the Nordic countries W/O issues. Must be something in the drinking water in Chicago.Or perhaps just the FOX effect.

[olofscience 464]

29 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

In defense of Brent and the general dodging of the uncomfortable truth nearly completely ignored here, the fact is that steamships did not advance because governments promoted them. The technology was not subsidized. Today we have good reason to spend money from the public purse and form policies that give EVs an advantage not yet earned in the marketplace. EVs are not ready for prime time but we need them anyway. It is wrong to ignore that fact instead of facing it square on when confronting opposition.

I think it's already being earned - again, not everyone like you does 1000+ mile road trips.

Delivery vans which do mostly city driving (stop-start), municipal buses, short range work vehicles have a huge advantage going EV.  More than 90 percent of commutes are under 30 miles. Big places like Canada and the USA might not be ideal yet, but in Europe - especially Norway where 80% of new sales are EVs I'd say is prime time already.

Government incentives only make the momentum faster, and we need it - 2023 just broke all records as the hottest year in history.

 

So what happened when RCA dismissed transistors? A small company started making tiny, cheap transistor radios with marginal quality and gradually learned how to improve them.

 

The name of that small company? Sony.

[gowlerk 2,103]

2 minutes ago, olofscience said:

I think it's already being earned - again, not everyone like you does 1000+ mile road trips.

The government funded rebates and multi-billion dollar subsidies to build out charging systems don't exist and are not a factor?

[olofscience 464]

Just now, gowlerk said:

The government funded rebates and multi-billion dollar subsidies to build out charging systems don't exist and are not a factor?

They do. Never said they didn't.

[gowlerk 2,103]

4 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Government incentives only make the momentum faster, and we need it - 2023 just broke all records as the hottest year in history.

Yes, I agree. But that is a different argument and a more honest one.

[olofscience 464]

4 minutes ago, olofscience said:

So what happened when RCA dismissed transistors? A small company started making tiny, cheap transistor radios with marginal quality and gradually learned how to improve them.

 

The name of that small company? Sony.

And to add to this, if western car companies decide not to do EVs, guess who's going to be unopposed in taking over the EV market:

 

China.

[winsor 224]

24 minutes ago, normiss said:

Toyota must have heard the Brenting:

Last year, Toyota and oil refiner Idemitsu Kosan, said they would tie up to develop and mass produce all-solid-state batteries, which they aim to commercialize in 2027 and 2028, followed by full-scale mass production.

"We will be rolling out our electric vehicles with solid state batteries in a couple of years from now," said Vikram Gulati, the India head of Toyota Kirloskar Motor. It "will be a vehicle which will be charging in 10 minutes, giving a range of 1,200 kms (750 miles) and life expectancy will be very good".

Do I read that as 10 minutes to a full charge?  That suggests some serious amperage.

I submit that the most effective means of electrified transport involves rails.  Going from ICE to EV simply trades one set of problems for another - a panacea it ain’t.

[gowlerk 2,103]

35 minutes ago, normiss said:

Toyota must have heard the Brenting:

Last year, Toyota and oil refiner Idemitsu Kosan, said they would tie up to develop and mass produce all-solid-state batteries, which they aim to commercialize in 2027 and 2028, followed by full-scale mass production.

"We will be rolling out our electric vehicles with solid state batteries in a couple of years from now," said Vikram Gulati, the India head of Toyota Kirloskar Motor. It "will be a vehicle which will be charging in 10 minutes, giving a range of 1,200 kms (750 miles) and life expectancy will be very good".

Calling billvon, what is a "solid state battery" and is there any possibility of this happening on the stated timetable?

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-roll-out-solid-state-battery-evs-couple-years-india-executive-says-2024-01-11/#:~:text="We will be rolling out,expectancy will be very good".