Waiver / Underage

[chrismgtis 0]

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I can think of. I can think of a few that I would hope you would not want your 16 yr old daughter after hours.

You sure wouldn't want them getting initiated as a Rodriguez Brother. Or seeing it done for that matter. lol

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[korbin 0]

Yeah, I will agree with you there. The vacationing family market goes for quite a bit more in the marketplace. It's ridiculous that families will go for that.

Now you are correct, eliminating a lot of the risk with SCUBA is the air situation, but if you're diving any sort of common depth. (60'-75', just a figure), there is quite a bit of education involved with it (A day or whatever it is, to the 15 minutes of Tandem Instruction.)

edit: just saw this article: http://www.seasabres.com/%5CSafty-education%5Cage%20and%20diving.htm

2,600 scuba fatalities since 70. Haven't looked at skydiving.

[skypuppy 1]

There are many dropzones in Canada that accept jumpers under 18 with parental consent. I might even think that it is evenly split or higher percentage accepting. Depending on who it is, a few even take jumpers under 16. I've taken a few 14 year-olds myself. I found them easier to teach and faster to learn than many older students.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[normiss 620]

I personally wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it...but we're talking about the litigious USof A.

[MarkBolton 0]

Fascinating thread on several levels.
I was allowed to train at 15 and jump at 16 in the U.S. back in the day with a parent-signed waiver. It was a club operation and I suppose if I had been injured, through my own fault or someone else's, my parents would just have viewed it as an accident. We had a few high school jumpers in the mid to late 70s in Birmingham.
This thread is the first time I have heard some states evidently hold that parents can sign away their rights to sue on behalf of their kids, although I am unclear what rights a kid or a grandparent might have.
I wish skydiving had a similar law to what the equestrian set has been able to push through with regards to liability.
Has anyone googled youth liability waiver? In this day and age you sure don't have to drive down to the YMCA and pick up a waiver before signing your kid up for soccer.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I wish skydiving had a similar law to what the equestrian set has been able to push through with regards to liability.

It would be nice, however it will never happen. The people that write our laws,(lawyers) are never going to limit their ability to rape America through the courts. They have car payments that are due.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I wish skydiving had a similar law to what the equestrian set has been able to push through with regards to liability.

It would be nice, however it will never happen. The people that write our laws,(lawyers) are never going to limit their ability to rape America through the courts. They have car payments that are due.

Though not terribly much safer, equestrian has a very long history (1000s of years), and in modern days among the well heeled, so it's not surprising the sport was able to get this sort of protection.

As someone much more experienced with the iron horse, being that far off the ground is a bit unnerving.

[pirana 0]

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In this day and age you sure don't have to drive down to the YMCA and pick up a waiver before signing your kid up for soccer.

You are correct. Sometimes they send it home with the kid and don't let them participate until you return the waiver.

At least up here (WI, USA) there is a waiver required for pretty much anything. All sports to be certain, and most every other activity other than sitting in a classroom. The Girl Scouts require one before any activity requiring travel; even the Jump Rope For A Healthy Heart fundraiser required one.

They are all pretty worthless and I assume the organizations know that. I think they use them only because they know a lot of people think signing it is the final word and won't take recourse because they think there is none. In other words, collecting a waiver for a minor is basically a bluff.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[riggerrob 558]

"... collecting a waiver for a minor is basically a bluff.

[skydived19006 4]

Hey Krobin,

You’ve obviously done your homework, and are more educated than any zero jump adult (as defined by being of the legal age of majority) I’ve came across. Sounds like you have your stuff together even have what sounds like a kick ass job! All that said, you may have to set your own rules/destiny. Do what I did when I wanted to have control over the DZ I jumped, I bought it! If you’re as financially fixed as you are intelligent, meaning you have an extra $50,000 lying around, just buy a Cessna 182, and a student rig. Then all you have to do is find an Instructor or two to “work for you”, a Commercial Pilot, and an airport that will allow you to do your thing. Shit, hang out a shingle, and start flying fun jumpers, at that point you can just about sit back and wait for the money to start rolling in, and retire by age 20!!!

Martin

Edit to add:
Once you’re in charge, and the one (or the primary one) on the line with all the liability, you can do whatever the heck you like! To hell with participation agreements all together! You don’t need USPA, once you’re comfortable, you can start instructing students yourself! As far as the FAA is concerned, there is no age minimum, nor requirement to instruct others in the art of skydiving. You can start throwing 10 year olds out on a static line! There’s no law against it, go for it!!!

Once again
Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[korbin 0]

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Hey Krobin,

You’ve obviously done your homework, and are more educated than any zero jump adult (as defined by being of the legal age of majority) I’ve came across. Sounds like you have your stuff together even have what sounds like a kick ass job! All that said, you may have to set your own rules/destiny. Do what I did when I wanted to have control over the DZ I jumped, I bought it! If you’re as financially fixed as you are intelligent, meaning you have an extra $50,000 lying around, just buy a Cessna 182, and a student rig. Then all you have to do is find an Instructor or two to “work for you”, a Commercial Pilot, and an airport that will allow you to do your thing. Shit, hang out a shingle, and start flying fun jumpers, at that point you can just about sit back and wait for the money to start rolling in, and retire by age 20!!!

Martin

Edit to add:
Once you’re in charge, and the one (or the primary one) on the line with all the liability, you can do whatever the heck you like! To hell with participation agreements all together! You don’t need USPA, once you’re comfortable, you can start instructing students yourself! As far as the FAA is concerned, there is no age minimum, nor requirement to instruct others in the art of skydiving. You can start throwing 10 year olds out on a static line! There’s no law against it, go for it!!!

Once again
Martin

From an analytical standpoint, this is not a very constructive post (You said so yourself on your second revision [of 3+, just can't find the right words?]).

But from a business standpoint, sounds good. The only problem is that it wouldn't be good to jump into a business without any experience in it. And why forget the USPA?

Participation agreements? Are we talking about Vector, Strong, et al tandem contracts? What about Static Line/AFF...

All in all I appreciate the thought

[skydived19006 4]

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From an analytical standpoint, this is not a very constructive post (You said so yourself on your second revision [of 3+, just can't find the right words?]).

But from a business standpoint, sounds good. The only problem is that it wouldn't be good to jump into a business without any experience in it. And why forget the USPA?

Participation agreements? Are we talking about Vector, Strong, et al tandem contracts? What about Static Line/AFF...

All in all I appreciate the thought

I tend to read before I post, then post, then see revisions, especially when I'm being funny (defined by the fact that I'm laughing while writing). I’m 43, but you write a whole lot better than do I!! And, no it was not intended to be constructive.

My attorney refers to our waiver as a participation agreement, must be some sort of legal mumbo jumbo term.

If you're going to do things that do not adhere to USPA suggestions, you won't want to be part of the USPA. They'll just get all pissy with you. May even kick you out, in that case you can sue, and potentially end up with a very nice "package"!! That's a whole-nother-story tough.

Most DZOs are not business men, just skydivers, that's why some can't do their own advertising, and end up doing business with criminals. Why not the other way round?

Martin

Edit:
See, I'm doing it again!!

I figure that once my post has the "edit.." note, It doesn't matter if I edit once or 5 times. That's just how I roll! I'm laughing again!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skydived19006 4]

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Participation agreements? Are we talking about Vector, Strong, et al tandem contracts?

If you want to be a Tandem Instructor at 16 with say 50 to 100 jumps, I'd suggest that you purchase a nice Eclipse rig, I own four. Advantage is that the manufacturer is defunct, so no manufacture to "give you shit!" Again, just like not being a member of USPA, do your damn own thing!!

You could be like a little Dirty Harry of the skydiving world up there! It would be interesting to see!!!

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[korbin 0]

ah, I didn't know what you meant by "Participation Agreement" (Thought you were referring to the agreements with the tandem manufacturers)

And the USPA thing, I don't know if you've followed the thread all the way through but what are you referring to that you wouldn't be USPA? (Age....?)

And on the edit thing, I was just laughing because I was replying and I got two or three different versions of the original post, had to modify a bit to keep up on the topic

[skydived19006 4]

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And the USPA thing, I don't know if you've followed the thread all the way through but what are you referring to that you wouldn't be USPA? (Age....?)

I did look back through the whole thread, and did not notice any post by you suggesting anything that would break a USPA suggestion. I use "suggestion" because they have very little enforceable authority. "Rule", or "Requirement" would suggest that they can back it up!

You are very determined, and don't like to be told "no." I just thought you'd want to run your DZ without a bunch of know it all folks with USPA trying to tell you how to run your business. Therefore, why stop at allowing 16 year olds, why not 15? If 15, why not 14, and so on.

Don't tell anyone at USPA, but my kids may skydive at 10. Shhhhh, I'm going to keep it a real tight secret. Oh, don't tell their mom either, I have to live with her!

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[korbin 0]

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And the USPA thing, I don't know if you've followed the thread all the way through but what are you referring to that you wouldn't be USPA? (Age....?)

I did look back through the whole thread, and did not notice any post by you suggesting anything that would break a USPA suggestion. I use "suggestion" because they have very little enforceable authority. "Rule", or "Requirement" would suggest that they can back it up!

You are very determined, and don't like to be told "no." I just thought you'd want to run your DZ without a bunch of know it all folks with USPA trying to tell you how to run your business. Therefore, why stop at allowing 16 year olds, why not 15? If 15, why not 14, and so on.

Don't tell anyone at USPA, but my kids may skydive at 10. Shhhhh, I'm going to keep it a real tight secret. Oh, don't tell their mom either, I have to live with her!

Martin

I guess I don't know what you are implying by even mentioning the USPA.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I guess I don't know what you are implying by even mentioning the USPA.

So are you going to put your AFF-I through the wringer when he (or she) gives you one answer to a situation and you read here about the other? You don't need to debate every point, and this level of self confidence doesn't translate to the best student.

Buying (leasing?) a 182 and running your own DZ for a summer might actually be one of the viable solutions. You may not have any experience, but that certainly hasn't stopped you from making legal determinations. And as mentioned, most DZ owners aren't businessmen, many are jumpers who didn't think the other owners were doing it right, and they could do it better.

[korbin 0]

That's not what I was saying at all, I couldn't figure out what he was talking about, and so I kind of wanted to know. He said several different things that weren't really clear.

[bloody_trauma 2]

oh just go do what we always did when we wanted to do something that was out of our age range... take the money you have to go skydiving with and buy or make a fake ID

seriously whats the rush... graduate high school first then worry about skydiving.

Fly it like you stole it

[trab1925 0]

I haven't read through much of this thread but the first page.

First of all, I'm glad that drop zones don't accept kids. I have been apart of this forum since I was about 15/16. I turn 18 in a couple months and now I'm working to save up for a rig/lessons. The reasons being that I am glad I couldn't do it any earlier is that I'm in no rush to get out to the DZ to learn. I know I'll get there soon enough.(next summer) It makes me feel better that a DZ won't take that kind of liability into their own hands. I would be crapping myself on the way up just thinking of what could happen to the kid, and how it's not worth it. I'm glad I had to wait this long.

panicked did a 180 and nosed it down into a road and hit a car.Hit a car how many planes with skydivers have a car accident? Only here.
-recovercrachead

[korbin 0]

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oh just go do what we always did when we wanted to do something that was out of our age range... take the money you have to go skydiving with and buy or make a fake ID

seriously whats the rush... graduate high school first then worry about skydiving.

In terms out of courtesy for the DZ and the sport, I don't think I'd use a fake ID on this particular cause. Just below me on this regard.

[bloody_trauma 2]

Fake it till ya make it words to live by

Fly it like you stole it

[trab1925 0]

Why does everyone try to point out trolls? Is there something I'm missing here? It's not like I'm lying about it? I'm simply here to learn as much as possible before I try it out.

panicked did a 180 and nosed it down into a road and hit a car.Hit a car how many planes with skydivers have a car accident? Only here.
-recovercrachead

[normiss 620]

So where can I tandem Scuba?

I'll even sign the waiver in good faith, unlike a number of "skydive students".

[kelpdiver 2]

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So where can I tandem Scuba?

This is called 'discover diving' or 'resort diving.'

Can be as little as 15 minutes of prep, just like with tandems. And in Mexico, might end up on a sloping wall at 80ft (with thousands to go) with your 12yo daughter, one divemaster, and 4 sport divers.