Waiver / Underage

[normiss 622]

Stop Chris...my side hurts now!
Best post of the day.

[BMFin 0]

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What are his legal qualifications?

He's been sued many times.

Out of all the possible qualifications to give legal advice this has to be the best I have ever heard !!!

[Guru312 0]

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Any cases due to minors / liability?

Do yourself a favor. If and when you go to West Tn. don't talk alot.

OK...I have to jump in here for two reasons.

First, my younger daughter will be 16 in March. We live in New Jersey. NJ law permits jumping by a 16 year old with parental permission. I was a DZO here way back in the early 70s. I granted dozens of "kids" permission to jump with proof, and presence, of their parental permission.

Over the last two weeks I've discussed my daughter jumping with folks at Cross Keys and have been told Rebecca must wait until she is eighteen. She was here a short while ago, before I read this thread, and commented about how disappointed she is that she can't jump for her birthday. If anyone has their act together well enough she's that kid. But...she's going to have to wait.

Given our litigious society and my experiences as a DZO I wouldn't expect anyone to allow a person younger than legal majority to jump.

Second, I have to step up and defend our precocious visitor, korbin. He doesn't write the way many teenagers write, that's for sure. BUT...as a child who had to endure much animosity and harassment simply because of my inquiring nature and my ability to put together a decent sentence, I can fully relate to him and the collective abuse which has been heaped upon him by you folks.

The kid is smart, inquiring and able to hold his own. At least you aren't denigrating and harassing him because he's a whuffo... such as the abuse whuffos take in the DB Cooper thread.

Hang in there, korbin, if they keep giving you a hard time Xerox your Mensa card and post it here. Maybe then they'll understand.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[billvon 2,392]

> You're annoying to be around, aren't you?

Your one warning.

>This countrys government along with it's legal system is out of control. Greed
>will keep it going in it's current direction.

Please keep politics out of this forum. (Goes for everyone.)

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

You have a good point. Although there are a number of reasons to suspect deception (16-yr old with office in SD next to an attorney who practices GA law?), The more I read, the more I believe its a frustrated teenager who refuses to take no for an answer.
Most DZ's tell underagers that "its against the rules" believing that it won't be checked. There may or may not be valid legal reasons to bar minors. IT DOESEN"T MATTER! You won't force a DZ to let you jump underage if they have a policy of no minors. The waiver at my local DZ was written before I started there, but I was told Morelli (Google him if you want to know) said it wasn't valid for minors and he wouldn't defend it if we let them jump. We aren't lawyers, paid him pretty good money for his advice and intend to follow it. Period. No minors. Period.
My feelings toward you are changing and I hope you get to jump. Blue skies dude.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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> You're annoying to be around, aren't you?

Your one warning.

No problem. I was done here.

[labrys 0]

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The BSR's mean Basic Safety RECOMMENDATIONS

From the SIM:

Section 2: Basic Safety Requirements and Waivers

Ummmm.... okay.

I guess in your world all words that start with "r" mean the same thing?

Dude... If you are tempted to quote a book, read the fucking book first, eh? Otherwise you might look like a fool.

Owned by Remi #?

[korbin 0]

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> You're annoying to be around, aren't you?

Your one warning.

No problem. I was done here.

Well this collectively turned into something it really shouldn't have been.
I don't feel I'm being harassed, I feel that I am being "hazed." But the point of the matter is, hell, this is the internet. That's that. :)

I do really appreciate the concern, Guru, and thanks.

And I'm a web developer here in Sioux Falls, (in case you didn't catch the "read the bio thread").. I work in an office where we deal with certain celebrities (athletes, to be exact).. I'm responsible for a lot of the digital media. This friend of mine is a partner and just happens to be in the same office (and writes our contracts). (If you need a kickass website, call me..)

I am not a MENSA member. Just for the line :) and if you really wanted to know, I think I write just fine, to be entirely honest. I find writing to be a little more formal than spoken word.. and treat it as such as taught.

I sort of expected a rougher reception; contesting a policy that nobody here cares about. (about 3 threads, collectively)..

Now we're further off topic than we were when we were talking about politics.

Let's keep on key here. I do thank those for their support.

If anyone has any sort of knowledge as to case law that may apply here, as, we are not speaking of a DZO or DZ's decision, that would be cool and on-topic.

@Chris No offense taken man.

[livendive 8]

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This was just the prelim research that I did, I'll talk it over at lunch tomorrow with an attorney friend in my office. (Tort)

Shouldn't you be at school tomorrow, rather than lunching with an attorney from your office?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[korbin 0]

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This was just the prelim research that I did, I'll talk it over at lunch tomorrow with an attorney friend in my office. (Tort)

Shouldn't you be at school tomorrow, rather than lunching with an attorney from your office?

Blues,
Dave

I leave school early to work ;) Again, lets get back on topic here.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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@Chris No offense taken man.

It's still early.

[korbin 0]

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@Chris No offense taken man.

It's still early.

That it is.

[BMFin 0]

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The BSR's mean Basic Safety RECOMMENDATIONS

From the SIM:

Section 2: Basic Safety Requirements and Waivers

Ummmm.... okay.

I guess in your world all words that start with "r" mean the same thing?

Dude... If you are tempted to quote a book, read the fucking book first, eh? Otherwise you might look like a fool.

I think what he ment was that USPA BSR´s are not the law.

So unless the DZ wants to follow USPA guidelines and stay as a USPA member DZ they are not binded by those requirements.

Wether they are called requirements or recommendations has little importance here..

(correct me if im mistaken)

[normiss 622]

Hazed? In the skydiving community???

Please don't think for a second we don't take it seriously. We DO!
That's part of the reason you've been given a bit of a hard time.
As "elderly" adults I think part of our perspective is that you're too young to know what you don't know.
It's not so much a "policy" per se...as it is just a business practice.
I guess I haven't gotten the point across. Most DZO's are simply not willing to take the risk.
It becomes a HUGE legal mess if anything happens.
They already get sued after an adult fully understanding the waiver gets hurt....

Like I said before, I do wish you luck man.

I took the path of fast motorcycles and airplanes when I was your age. Heaven knows what could have happened had I discovered jumping first....

It's worth the wait!
oh...and Mensa membership ain't so tough.... Go for it.

[korbin 0]

I fully understand that DZOs will not take the risk. (It's just that, the point I try to make is "What risk? The misguide one") And I do know there is quite a bit I do not know. If I blatantly said that "I know this is what needs to happen", I would have never asked this question to begin with, I would have screamed "This is some bullshit yo', fuck the dee zoh." with one finger on each hand up.

I understand there is a possibility of an issue, I've been attempting to look at the Morelli files, haven't found much interesting yet. I will jump, I don' t know if it will be this season. I thought it was interesting that this DZ that I wanted to jump at has the King Air every July for a boogie.


@Mensa -- Not something that's really pushed or advocated. National Honor Society = the shit, these days.

And I did use to ride and do stupid stuff ;) (Now it's business first.)

Oh and the hazing is what it is. Don't take kindly to whuffos ;)?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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It's just that, the point I try to make is "What risk?

You're kidding, Right!!??

Looking more and more like a troll or a lawyer.

[korbin 0]

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It's just that, the point I try to make is "What risk?

You're kidding, Right!!??

Looking more and more like a troll or a lawyer.

So far the only thing I've seen is the Morelli stance. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Just keep up the "What risk" arguement. I'm sure it will take you far.

goodnight

[Cari 0]

I don't know too much about DZ operations, but I do know that I wouldn't want to run that risk myself. I mean, you can't even legally get a tattoo at 16. That doesn't mean that you can't find a place that will do it, but it seems like too big of a risk to me.

[korbin 0]

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I don't know too much about DZ operations, but I do know that I wouldn't want to run that risk myself. I mean, you can't even legally get a tattoo at 16. That doesn't mean that you can't find a place that will do it, but it seems like too big of a risk to me.

With written parental consent in the state of South Dakota you can; quite a few others like this (states), quite a few that do not accept any form of tattooing.
(Ex girlfriend was a tattooists daughter, funnily enough)

Totally offtopic, but there is another form of consent to something that does run an interesting path.

[korbin 0]

I really didn't expect to take this kind of heat for an innocent question and open forum:

From dgpacker via PM:
[ Exceptionally immature PM removed for courtesy ]

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

We keep trying to give you our best and most honest answers and you keep not hearing them. A couple people were a little harsh tellling you to leave it alone, and you still didn't listen. Take a step back and look at how you keep telling us how wrong we are for things that are out of our hands (opinions handed to us by lawyers ect.). We keep giving you answers and you keep saying "but what about this" splitting hairs and pushing limits. My ex-stepdaughter was really good at that. (one reason I tend to think you are who you say you are). It gets really annoying. Having that sort of attitude while training doesn't go over very well. Perhaps one reason younger people aren't allowed to jump.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that DZs have NO insurance-can't get it. Paintball, racetracks, tattoo parlors, etc, all can get liability insurance in case a kid gets hurt and sues. Keep in mind lawsuits cost money even if you don't lose them. It may not be right. It probably isn't fair.
I guess I'm still trying to be helpful and I do wish you the best, but you might want to step back and think about the feelings of the people here- some of whom have survived a very long time in a very unforgiving sport (No, I haven't been here very long, but I do try very hard not to dictate to those who have)

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[normiss 622]

Yep.
No risk.
None at all.


So ... back to my comment about you not knowing what you don't know and all.....

damnit man!

[korbin 0]

I think about the third page, I said it was done, someone continued it. I think we can close it now if nothing else needs to be added.

You skim the bottom of a pejorative there:

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. Perhaps one reason younger people aren't allowed to jump.

That's fine. Leave it at that.

[BIGUN 1,051]

Your posting a PM may just end this thread... kind of an unwritten rule that PM's are not published - no matter how offensive.

As you say, to stay on track here... both Gemini (Jim) and I have given you case law. There's another factor here that you are unaware of... while the USPA (which is merely our governing body) suggests that it is ok for those 16 with parental consent to make a jump, they also recommend that you have an attorney in your State check for the validity of parental consent. As I posted, there are only three States which allow parents to waive a minors right to sue.

Another component is that those of us who are/were Tandem Instructors is that we sign a contract with the tandem manufacturers that we will not take anyone less than 18 on a tandem skydive. In short, we are faced with State laws, contractual obligations, etc.

My home State is Oklahoma and at one time, we could take 16 year olds on a skydive with parental consent. However, I was an Instructor/DZM when a father brought his daughter in for her 16th birthday jump. As we're going thru the paperwork, the father proclaims, "Yeah, we're not telling my ex-wife about this until its over. " "Sir, do you have sole custody of your daughter?" to which he explained that he did not - they had joint custody. I told him that I was sorry, but that I was going to have to decline the skydive unless the mother was also present to sign the waiver. Somehow, it became my fault that she couldn't make a skydive and I had ruined her 16th birthday.

The point of this being... DZ's operate on a thin margin as it is. One lawsuit, either by the parents who have a change of heart after their child is injured, or the minor goes to the hospital with a broken ankle, reports to the doctor that they broke it on a skydive which makes the doctor call Child Support Services which jams up the family, the DZ, etc. - it just plain and simply makes it easier to engage in a legal and binding agreement with one who has reached the age of majority.

Seriously, one lawsuit and not only can it bust the DZ, but for those DZs that are supplemented by the DZO's regular job could have a catastrophic effect, not only on just the DZ, but that DZO's livelihood for years to come.

Now, you can fight, argue, disagree all you want, but the fact remains that most DZs are not going to let you jump until you reach the age of majority. Finally, have you considered going to court for emancipation of status from one of minor to majority?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.