Manifest Etiquette

[Boogers 0]

Thought I'd add another "etiquette" question, after an experience at the DZ this weekend.

Let's say you have one plane that seats 13 jumpers. You have a batch of 10 tandems arrive on schedule, and you have 6 fun jumpers looking to get on loads also.

How do you schedule the jumpers?

1) Fill the next two loads with the tandems and videographers and make the fun jumpers wait, or;
2) Spread the tandems out across more loads and leave some room for the fun jumpers.

How should it be done?

[jimjumper 25]

Why not just alternate the loads? The video guys are going to need to pack and the TI's gear up and train. The fun jumpers will also need to pack. 20-25 minute turns should keep everybody happy and busy. Thats's assuming they will turn the plane with 6 fun jumpers. You don't say how the groups, tandem and fun jumpers, are mixed so it's also a little hard from just the info presented.

[NWFlyer 2]

What kind of dropzone do you want to be? Type 1: A DZ that maximizes its tandem revenue or Type 2: one that promotes and supports skydiving and skydivers more generally, to include both tandems and fun jumpers?

The answer to that question then answers how you deal with the scenario you presented. If your staff team has done their job, the tandems will have been briefed to understand that they might have to wait a bit, and that their whole party (or even half of it) won't get to go together, so stretching them out over three or four loads will match up with the expectations that you set. Maybe you've even said "We only reserve X (maybe 4 or 5) tandems each hour" and you've already "split" them into two groups even though they show up as a group of 10.

Often, especially at a mid-sized DZ such as you describe (a 13-seat plane puts you in that category), the limiting factor is not seats on the plane, it's tandem rigs and staff, so that you end up doing the group in 3 or 4 (or more) loads because of available TIs/Videographers/Gear.

IMHO, it would seem to me that a mid-sized DZ that keeps itself staffed/geared up to handle 10 tandems over two loads (especially if they're back-to-back loads) is sending a message to the fun jumpers about how it's likely to prioritize its business.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jonstark 8]

Depends on how many tandem masters are on site. Your scenario requires three loads if all tandems are getting video. The DZ is going to have to have a lot of staff and gear ready to go to get it done in rapid succession. There's probably plenty of opportunity to fit in a fun load or mix and match as needed.

jon

[Boogers 0]

NWFlyer

IMHO, it would seem to me that a mid-sized DZ that keeps itself staffed/geared up to handle 10 tandems over two loads (especially if they're back-to-back loads) is sending a message to the fun jumpers about how it's likely to prioritize its business.

You nailed it. That's how I felt - like a second class citizen skydiver. They might as well have just said; "If you want to make more jumps without long waits, go somewhere else".

A DZO certainly has the right to make that kind of decision, but it's not very accomodating of all concerned, and will drive people away in the long run.

[Boogers 0]

jonstark

Depends on how many tandem masters are on site. Your scenario requires three loads if all tandems are getting video. The DZ is going to have to have a lot of staff and gear ready to go to get it done in rapid succession. There's probably plenty of opportunity to fit in a fun load or mix and match as needed.

Enough tandem rigs to do back-to-back loads, but not enough tandem masters. So at least some of the tandem masters land, doff their gear, run to pick up a fresh rig, grab their next passenger, and get back on the plane. This has the plane idling for quite a bit while the next batch runs in from the landing area, and gets geared up and ready. It could have turned around quickly with a few more tandems and the fun jumpers ready to go.

And they often do a shutdown after every other load. So if you can only make every third load, and that includes a shutdown, now you're waiting an hour and a half for your next load. Bring a book to read...

[chuckakers 370]

There's no good answer to that. Every DZO runs his/her DZ differently with different business models, so it's impossible to say what is best as an outsider looking in.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DiverMike 5]

From my point of view, the DZO has two priorities:

1. Provide a safe environment for skydivers.
2. Stay in business.

Priority 1 may be more important, but priority 2 is probably harder.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Boogers 0]

DiverMike

From my point of view, the DZO has two priorities:

1. Provide a safe environment for skydivers.
2. Stay in business.

Priority 1 may be more important, but priority 2 is probably harder.

Why would it be unsafe to put fun jumpers on the same load as tandems?
Everyone in the country does it!

[Fast 0]

Boogers

Thought I'd add another "etiquette" question, after an experience at the DZ this weekend.

It's not etiquette at all, it's business. The sport as a whole can't survive without sport jumpers but individual dropzones can. If I want to make as much money as I can I turn planes with all tandems.

That's the bottom line, if my goal is money I don't really care if there are sport jumpers around because they don't help the cause.

If the goal is a well rounded DZ, then in most cases you accommodate by not having planes full of tandems and book accordingly though even at times there can be a need to push tandems ahead (like, not enough time to finish in a day, sport jumpers generally understand that because happy tandems do AFF).

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[PiLFy 0]

One of three DZs in my area started doing this to an extreme level. I haven't bothered spending any of my money there in three years... Vote w/your wallet. DZOs have choices to make, & so do we.

[fencebuster 7]

+1

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[fencebuster 7]

+1

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[JohnMitchell 14]

PiLFy

One of three DZs in my area started doing this to an extreme level. I haven't bothered spending any of my money there in three years... Vote w/your wallet. DZOs have choices to make, & so do we.

I've seen that too. I'm proud to say my home DZ tries hard to keep fun jumpers in the air as well as the student loads. Having a Super Otter and Super Caravan probably helps.

[fencebuster 7]

I love fun jumpers. We are a 2 Cessna DZ right now, but being able to mix Tandems, AFF/Coach students and fun jumpers will make us a successful DZ. You need to have a good Manifest manager to make it work. Fortunately, I have a great Manifest Manager who understands and implements my vision.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[mistercwood 287]

I don't run a DZ (so my opinion is pure speculation naturally) but I would've thought a decent blend on each load not only keeps everyone happy, but also could work as a longer term investment...

I recall the mate who came out for a tandem when I started AFF, and my little sister who I bought a tandem for her 16th birthday last year, both commenting on how cool it was seeing the "real" skydivers in action - gear checks, learning the fistbump handshake (sister LOVED that), watching 3 or 4 people get set up in this doorway to the void then WHOOSH they're gone. Contrast this with a plane full of tandems only - you get to see someone rigged up just like you, squealing just like you, getting rolled out the door just like you're about to.

One is essentially a very fun fairground ride. The other exposes the tandem jumper to the sport itself, and might plant the seed of "How do I get to do it the way they just did?". So now instead of a couple hundred bucks you would've gotten from slotting a tandem in place of those fun jumpers, you've got someone who may potentially drop a couple grand on AFF, then half their weekly paycheck for as long as they stay in the sport...

I have no idea how the numbers balance out in the long run and I could be horribly off base on how much swapping a tandem out for a fun jumper can impact the bottom line... I am confident though that a fun jumper on the plane can be of more potential value than just the price of their jump ticket...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[Mach1dmb 0]

Why would they allow that many tandems to schedule at the same time Iin the first place?

[Fast 0]

Mach1dmb

Why would they allow that many tandems to schedule at the same time Iin the first place?

Cause they all knew each other prolly. We routinely book groups of 20+ tandems at our dz. We can only take 3 tandems at a time because of instructor/rig limitations and a desire to keep the plane turning and having room for sport jumpers. If you try and spread out the booking they all just show up anyways with the first person and it's too hard to keep track of.

If we bought 8 more rigs and stopped allowing sport jumpers we would make an absurdly large sum of money every week. Wouldn't be a very fun place to hang out though.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Boogers 0]

Mach1dmb

Why would they allow that many tandems to schedule at the same time Iin the first place?

They schedule groups of people (not necessarily related) to arrive in intervals. They then have one instructor give the group their ground training. The instructors rotate this duty. And finally, they line them up for their tandem airplane rides with their specific tandem masters. It's an orderly process, I'll give them that. Better than having people trickle in by ones and twos, and having to repeat yourself for the training many more times over.

By the time that batch is being dispatched with certificates and videos in hand, the next batch is arriving, and the process starts over again. They know what their capacity is, and how long it takes to process them from start to finish. Of course, weather can always throw a monkey wrench into the smooth flow.

They just need to factor in some fun jumper space on the plane along with all that.

This is preferable I think to just having all the tandems for the entire day showing up at 8 am, and then having some suffer very long waits and getting all bitchy about the delay.

Althought I think it's good for tandem passengers to have some time to hang out beforehand, watch parachutes being packed, and see other tandems landing, to get a feel for the whole experience. I've always thought it too impersonal to just have them show up, slap a harness on them, jump 'em, and send 'em on their way, slam-bang-thank-you-maam. A sign in an old rigging loft used to say; "Get it on, get 'em up, get 'em out." I like to see them hang around for a while, see what they're about to go through, watch the landings, see the smiles, and feel the vibe.