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Ron

USPA BOD... Nothing more than a mouth piece for manufacturers

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Then you can force the rig manufacturers to do all kinds of stuff.



It is not about 'forcing' anyone to do anything. It is about the BOD representing jumpers and not manufacturers. AAD companies wanted to raise firing altitudes.... They could of done that without a BSR. But no, instead they influenced the BOD and got what they wanted. They didn't ask the membership, and in the process they put more liability on S&TA's.

It is not about 'forcing', it is about educating jumpers which rigs have problems and letting the free market decide. If the USPA released data that pointed out that a brand 'X' container has been involved in 90% of these accidents.... Which rig would you buy? What about one brand of reserve? One brand of AAD?

My gripe is not a difficult concept. The BOD carried out the wishes of a manufacturer and not of the jumpers. This is not the first time they have done it.... Reference FAA medicals for Tandem masters.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>Riggers have chimed in here saying they've refused to pack tight rigs - OK, that's a
>starting point. Compile a database of those containers and canopies and see if there's
>any commonality.

Perhaps a better starting point would be rig/canopy combinations that have actually demonstrated problems; this would give you a known starting point where problems have been seen. I don't know if a rig that is very hard to close or "seems really tight" is the best metric there.

At this point there should be a handful of such combinations that could be assembled and tested.

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Enough, Ron. You've posted almost 100 times in this thread



I STARTED the thread and people respond and ask questions TO me.
Are you now saying I am not allowed to post in a thread *I* created?

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but do not start with the personal stuff, and avoid the conspiracy theories.



You might want to read the thread again... I didn't go personal and I didn't claim a conspiracy.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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and avoid the conspiracy theories



How about all of you stop claiming he is saying there is a conspiracy theory at play, I never read that in ANY of his post! In fact it's pretty damn clear the point he is making and anyone who has been in the sport for more then a handful yrs knows and can understand WTF he, Ron, is talking about and and many us of can see that in fact the BOD catered to the MFG's, yet again.

The fact is the USPA stopped being a ORG. about jumpers interest a long time ago and and started working for DZO's & MFG's and protecting their interests a long time ago.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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***

By the way there is a third option to the scenarios. It could be that with more AADs and jumps happening we have simply uncovered the fact that 750 feet isn't quite enough and it has always been an AAD problem.

Personally I don't see it that way, but it should be kept in mind.

There have been a lot of AAD fires where the reserve opened in time. Many were due to loss of awareness, not loss of consciousness. But they gave the reserve adequate time/altitude to open. It's only been recently that there have been a rash of "almost but not quite open" issues.

And Billvon suggested testing and finding out which container/main/reserve combos have issues and that how hard/tight it is to close may not be the best way.
I agree with that. I use the "have the jumper pull in front of me and then pull upwards on the bridle to see how hard freebag extraction is" method. Still not totally scientific, but at least a little more realistic. I've found one that I had no problem closing the previous time to be difficult to extract, and one of the more difficult to close had no problem extracting. Go figure.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Personal Opinion. Good move by board. If this will aid in increasing AAD manufacturer's activation altitudes - then good.

750 feet is a small window. I've always enjoyed informing folks just how small that window and how a .5 or 1 second delay makes it even smaller. Their reactions range from mind blown to disbelief. More air, more time, more chance.

It'd be interesting to see what would happen if folks had the option to voluntarily select their activation altitude... 750-1250ft.
Woot Woot!

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We DO have that option.
Making it one of the reasons this was not necessary in the first place.
Personally, I generally pitch at 3k, but not always.
Every jump is different.
I have also bumped up my AAD by 300ft. :P
(although I don't always turn it on. Again, depending on the jump)

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Not a reply directed at you.

Everyone here should consider the course of action they are suggesting and ask themselves if paying 2 times the amount they are paying now for equipment is something they want to do. Stop and ponder the absolute firestorm of lawsuits from the families of every person who's gone in since AAD's were widely accepted and in use on their family member's rig.

Let's try and work together to solve the problem. This is the first step.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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If this will aid in increasing AAD manufacturer's activation altitudes - then good.



News Flash: Every modern AAD has the capability for the user to set higher activation altitudes.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>And of the people that died... How many pulled their main below 2.5k feet?

In 2012, 3 possibilities.

First exited just below 2000 feet and ran out of time. Exiting at 2500 feet would definitely have helped.

Other two deployed _near_ 2500 feet and fought with their mains until a too-low cutaway. (Neither had deployment altitude reported.) One was reported as starting breakoff at 4000 feet, which means a 50/50 shot of deploying below 2500 feet. The other was first seen to have a canopy with a problem at 2000 feet.

So in 2012 one almost certainly. Two possibles.

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normiss

We DO have that option.
Making it one of the reasons this was not necessary in the first place.
Personally, I generally pitch at 3k, but not always.
Every jump is different.
I have also bumped up my AAD by 300ft. :P
(although I don't always turn it on. Again, depending on the jump)




In the Zhills incident thread you posted

"The AAD's on all three individuals DID fire.
Maybe we need to bump up the altitudes.
Deployment as well as firing. "

So you are for bumping up deployment and AAD firing altitudes, just against there being a rule about it?

Like someone is for wearing seatbelts, but doesnt want it to be a ticketable offense to not wear one?

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I do sometimes need to be in the sky at 2k.
I'm comfortable with that.

I'd be pretty unhappy if my demo jumps starting getting more dangerous or just not authorized.
I'd also hate to get grounded for dumping at 2k because I needed clear air.
I'd hate to see someone brain lock after passing 2500 ft with a valid risk nearby.

YMMV.

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Everyone here should consider the course of action they are suggesting and ask themselves if paying 2 times the amount they are paying now for equipment is something they want to do



Is it better to jump gear that might kill someone?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Enough, Ron. You've posted almost 100 times in this thread.



People keep replying to me, I will keep answering. Are you saying I am not allowed to answer when someone asked me a question?

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but do not start with the personal stuff, and avoid the conspiracy theories.



Read the threads... I did not make personal stuff and I did not make conspiracy theories.

I did see that you removed my first reply to you, and the reply of the other poster who said he did not agree with you either.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

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Everyone here should consider the course of action they are suggesting and ask themselves if paying 2 times the amount they are paying now for equipment is something they want to do



Is it better to jump gear that might kill someone?



You do it every time you leave the plane.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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jumpwally

wonder why no one from the manuf world has thrown down an opinion.....mm



Probably they are too busy calling USPA BOD members with their next move.

USPA does have an interest in what the equipment manufacturers have to say, but it should be it should be filtered by "how does this serve/protect the average member," not "how does this serve/protect the manufacturers from liability and their own shortcomings."

The raising of minimum opening altitudes is not really the issue that we have. It's how and why it was done, and the S&TA being asked to make a judgement call on a skydiver and their equipment when people ask to open lower.

Interestingly, the S&TA can waiver this, but he/she can't enforce it really. An S&TA can only ground a jumper if the DZO says its okay, and unless the offending jumper has a rating, there is nothing else an S&TA can do immediately. He/she can file a 1-6 disciplinary report and forward it to the RD, who then forwards it to USPA HQ, who then forwards it to the new disciplinary committee. Not a real world deterrent.

But this isn't a real world problem, most jumpers pull above 3K today anyway.

The fact that we have anecdotal evidence suggesting we have a serious equipment problem (serious enough to warrant changing a BSR), and the two groups who can influence a change are doing essentially nothing. USPA and PIA are just hoping the problem will go away on its own.

Heaven forbid something happens and the FAA has to step in. Everyone involved would be so much better off if they just dealt with this quickly and up front.

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Jump more, post less!

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billvon

One was reported as starting breakoff at 4000 feet, which means a 50/50 shot of deploying below 2500 feet.

huh? I break at 4000 all the time and still dump by 3 so how is that a 50/50 chance?

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

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You do it every time you leave the plane.



There is a difference in taking a calculated risk based on known information and taking a risk based of wrong information.

Hypothetical: If I told you your reserve would malfunction 5% of the time, but the actual malfunction rate was 40% of the time... Wouldn't you want to know the real numbers?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>huh? I break at 4000 all the time and still dump by 3 so how is that a 50/50 chance?

I've been doing video for 8-way teams for about 4 years now (5 different teams) and from breakoff altitude (which I can hear on my audible) to last person pulled is about 8 seconds. People seem to pull between about 3* to 8 seconds after that point, with the majority around 7 (which is right around 1500 feet of lost altitude.)

YMMV.

(* - which is the one that really scares me.)

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Everyone here should consider the course of action they are suggesting and ask themselves if paying 2 times the amount they are paying now for equipment is something they want to do. Stop and ponder the absolute firestorm of lawsuits from the families of every person who's gone in since AAD's were widely accepted and in use on their family member's rig.



I know in Virginia, and probably most states, there is a statute of limitations on such claims. In Virginia it is 2 years.

Just a reality check.

- Dan G

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Ron

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You do it every time you leave the plane.



There is a difference in taking a calculated risk based on known information and taking a risk based of wrong information.

Hypothetical: If I told you your reserve would malfunction 5% of the time, but the actual malfunction rate was 40% of the time... Wouldn't you want to know the real numbers?



You are correct and I hope you saw the slight sarcasm in my post. Correction can come from inside or outside the sport. There are a bunch of players here and none of them want to be the one left holding the bag. I would hope in the near future we hear from the harness/container manufacturers on steps they have taken to improve the time between the deployment of the reserve pc and a fully opened canopy. (John did it years ago). I also hope we hear from jumpers who stop being so vain as to demand the smallest, prettiest container regardless of how it performs the job required. And riggers how stop stuffing oversized canopies into undersized containers.

Or, we can start trying to throw people under the bus. The attorneys would love that approach.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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