USPA changes lifetime membership to $2,500 for domestic member, $4,000 for international

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Printing costs for the magazine are currently covered by the advertising fees but if they go to an all (or mostly) electronic version, that cost will be greatly reduced.

Just to clarify~

What do you mean by an electronic version?

Would that mean no paper magazine at all?


IF so - on one hand I can see the advantages for the organization as far as reduced costs...

On the other hand - though it would be hard to quantify, I wonder what value there is in the printed rag as a 'window' into what we do. By that I mean, I leave my 'old' magazines for others to read at various places.

- Doctor's & dentist's offices, library on a cruise ship, the 'take one leave one' rack at some hotels...I've even 'donated' a year's membership to the library at my old high school a few times. Someone else had done that when I went to school there & I can't tell ya how many times I read those 5 year old magazines cover to cover - 39 years later I'm still jumping!

I know I'm an old fart, but I kinda LIKE the 'paper in hand' monthly publication...HATE to think about taking my computer with me to the bathroom.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[michalm21 0]

Hold on! How about time value of money?
So the money someone paid in 1985 has been pissed down the drain?

If you look at the Dow Jones for years 1985-2005, you can see a 795.47% increase (Jan 1 '85 - Jan 1 '05), so allocating the money in the DJIA would yield $4375 for the $550 paid up front.
$550 with inflation according to online calculator was worth about $993 in 2005...

So how was all that lifetime membership money pissed away exactly?

[MikeTJumps 4]

That was one consideration for going electronic to reduce costs!

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[starkmtn 0]

I'm glad someone has finally mentioned the fact that many magazines have been offering a (cheaper) digital option for years. Any analysis of the cost of lifetime membership that doesn't take into account this trend in publishing is, IMHO, flawed. If a lifetime membership could be had for the old price and a digital subscription to Parachutist, that would eliminated a big chunk of the cost of said membership. Did anyone bring this up at the BoD meeting?

"You guys should just do CRW. There are so many more ways to get killed, it makes a CYPRES seem safe." -Kevin Keenan

[theonlyski 3]

Douggarr

After 40 years of continuous membership, a member was awarded a lifetime membership which meant annual dues were gratis. They still had to pay for launching and hauling their boats, and the bar and restaurant minimums, etc.

Well, don't forget that lifetime members still must pay for ratings, renewals of the ratings and licenses.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[david3 0]

Well that sucks. It's too much.
I am going to guess that for many of us the disappointment comes from the missed opportunity. Every year I was going sign up for the lifetime membership next year. Now that the price has gone up, this is the year I would have done it. If only the price hadn’t gone up.

[hcsvader 1]

simple solution is to give people the option to recieve a digital version in place of a paper version.
Im a current member of the USPA, CSPA and APF.

I get 3 magazines sent somewhere every issue, no idea where as im perpetually homeless. So ya its a total waste.

I read the ASM (australian skydive mag from APF) online because they email me a link to every issue.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Krip 2]

Hi Jan

Keep up the good work, thats why we voted for you as a write in candidate back in the rec.com days

Since we getting older 79 sounds about right for the average life span for a male in the U.S. It will be interesting in say another 20 years when USPA finds out that some of their LTMs are over 100 years old

The grandkids and great grandkids will be lookinng at the magazines for eternity.

One Jump Wonder

[mjosparky 3]

Krip

Hi Jan

Keep up the good work, thats why we voted for you as a write in candidate back in the rec.com days

Since we getting older 79 sounds about right for the average life span for a male in the U.S. It will be interesting in say another 20 years when USPA finds out that some of their LTMs are over 100 years old

The grandkids and great grandkids will be lookinng at the magazines for eternity.

Is a LTM considered property that be left to your kin in a will?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DanG 1]

Quote

simple solution is to give people the option to recieve a digital version in place of a paper version.

USPA would lose money on that deal. If you're going to print one copy of a magazine, you might as well print 30,000. That's an exaggeration, but the cost to print is not directly proportional to the number of copies printed.

It's also possible that ad revenue would go down if the magazine were electronic only.

- Dan G

[tristansdad 0]

I'm a lifetime member of the USPA. Only I'm on the $55 dollar a year payment plan.

[MakeItHappen 15]

DougGarr-
We thought about doing some sort of sliding fee based on how old you are.
HQ dissed that idea. Keep in mind they can't even handle renewal for multiple years with a slight discount. Although when the new membership software is working correctly, that (multi-year renewal) is an option that HQ said it would consider.

DanG - The $20-24 per member per year for the magazine takes into account all expenses and income related to the magazine.

MikeT & Twardo- Electronic version of the magazine won't happen for a number of years mainly because many people want the printed magazine.

michalm21 - It would be nice if USPA could squirrel away the dues money for 30 years and reap a great profit on it. But this is a business that has to pay bills in a timely manner.

MikeO - The LTM ends when you die. You cannot bequeath it to anyone.


.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Doug_Davis 0]

MakeItHappen

***

Thanks for the reply. I would assume there are statistics to support that analysis.

How do LTM cost anything beyond the magazine and a fancy membership card?

For domestic:
The magazine is about $20-24 per year.
Insurance is ~$12 per year.
USPA Overhead (maintenance of SIM, SCM other docs etc, services to members (rating renewal etc)) makes up the most of the rest of the annual fee.

Quote

It would seem that it would require a great number of LTM to 'take more' out of USPA beyond the 18.18 year span that would compare projected yearly dues (assuming no future fee increase ) to the now-obsolete $1000 fee.

Do you happen to know how many LTM there are?

About 2300 active LTM.
New LTM for 2013: 129
New LTM for 2012: 98

44 yo median (all)
Domestic: 50 yo median
Foreign: 42 yo median

I do not have #s on how the distribution looks like for how long the LTM have been LTM.
But just looking at the median age, it does appear that domestic LTM are heavily weighted to long time jumpers.
IOW, they have already passed their 'break-even' point and USPA is now incurring a loss for their membership.
In recent years, foreigners have been the majority of LTM and many of them are in their 20s.
Life expectancy was given as 79 for domestic and 72 for foreign. (I think those numbers are what were said, but I didn't write those down.)

It actually, does not take very many LTM to create a deficit. I have an example that shows the calculations, but it's not ready for prime time.

In a day or 3, I should have a graph of how annual dues & LTM fees have increased over the years.

.

?

As a former national board member for the American Canoe Association (paddling version of USPA), the only way this makes sense is if they are sticking the $1,000 LTM fee under a mattress. If they are putting it a long term investment trust returning an annual rate of approximately 6% that 1,000 grows to over $3,200 in 20 years. And over $10,000 in 40 years.

So if they based this whole increase off of that thinking that the annual dues members are having to carry the costs of the LTM then they need a better investment adviser and someone to show the board what an endowment is. And if your claim is that the LTM fees need to go to paying bills (which you just alluded to in a prior post) then your staff is over spending, as the amounts you get from LTM cant be counted on on a yearly basis as a budget item nor should they go toward annual operating costs.

Sounds like someone is pulling the wool over someone's eyes.

[Boogers 0]

airtwardo

Quote

Printing costs for the magazine are currently covered by the advertising fees but if they go to an all (or mostly) electronic version, that cost will be greatly reduced.

Just to clarify~
What do you mean by an electronic version?
Would that mean no paper magazine at all?

What some organizations are doing is offering it as a membership option, to be selected by each individual member. If you want electronic, the print verion is stopped. If you want the print version, you still get it. No one gets denied their particular preference. It's not all of one thing at the expense of the other. Or at least it shouldn't be...

I personally like a printed copy.

[Boogers 0]

mjosparky

***Hi Jan

Keep up the good work, thats why we voted for you as a write in candidate back in the rec.com days

Since we getting older 79 sounds about right for the average life span for a male in the U.S. It will be interesting in say another 20 years when USPA finds out that some of their LTMs are over 100 years old

The grandkids and great grandkids will be lookinng at the magazines for eternity.

Is a LTM considered property that be left to your kin in a will?

Hardly. "Lifetime" means YOUR lifetime. When you die, the lifetime membership dies with you.

[topdocker 0]

Boogers

******Hi Jan

Keep up the good work, thats why we voted for you as a write in candidate back in the rec.com days

Since we getting older 79 sounds about right for the average life span for a male in the U.S. It will be interesting in say another 20 years when USPA finds out that some of their LTMs are over 100 years old

The grandkids and great grandkids will be lookinng at the magazines for eternity.

Is a LTM considered property that be left to your kin in a will?

Hardly. "Lifetime" means YOUR lifetime. When you die, the lifetime membership dies with you.

What if I wanna be cryogenically preserved and brought back later? Would they renew my membership when I wake up? Would old magazines be piled around the canister?

top

Jump more, post less!

[airtwardo 6]

topdocker

*********Hi Jan

Keep up the good work, thats why we voted for you as a write in candidate back in the rec.com days

Since we getting older 79 sounds about right for the average life span for a male in the U.S. It will be interesting in say another 20 years when USPA finds out that some of their LTMs are over 100 years old

The grandkids and great grandkids will be lookinng at the magazines for eternity.

Is a LTM considered property that be left to your kin in a will?

Hardly. "Lifetime" means YOUR lifetime. When you die, the lifetime membership dies with you.

What if I wanna be cryogenically preserved and brought back later? Would they renew my membership when I wake up? Would old magazines be piled around the canister?

top

What if I get bit by a vampire..................AGAIN?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Boogers 0]

topdocker

***Hardly. "Lifetime" means YOUR lifetime. When you die, the lifetime membership dies with you.

What if I wanna be cryogenically preserved and brought back later? Would they renew my membership when I wake up? Would old magazines be piled around the canister?

I'd vote in favor of that, except I'd suspend magazine delivery in the meantime.

If medical technology ever advances to the point where everyone is doing this, we can always change the rule later.

[BillyVance 34]

david3

Well that sucks. It's too much.
I am going to guess that for many of us the disappointment comes from the missed opportunity. Every year I was going sign up for the lifetime membership next year. Now that the price has gone up, this is the year I would have done it. If only the price hadn’t gone up.

Yeah, my dad had something similar to that. He was gonna buy the empty lot next to our house when I was a kid. First time he asked for the price, it was a bit out of reach. Then later he got a raise, and asked again. Yep, price went way up. So he gave up, and while I was a teenager, somebody bought the lot and built a house on it. The driveway is where our treehouse used to be.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Krip 2]

When does LTM end?

I'm guessing when someone Notified USPA that the member passed away or the kids stopped sending in the annual paper work.

It's what some people do

One Jump Wonder

[kuai43 7]

Doug_Davis

?

As a former national board member for the American Canoe Association (paddling version of USPA), the only way this makes sense is if they are sticking the $1,000 LTM fee under a mattress. If they are putting it a long term investment trust returning an annual rate of approximately 6% that 1,000 grows to over $3,200 in 20 years. And over $10,000 in 40 years.

So if they based this whole increase off of that thinking that the annual dues members are having to carry the costs of the LTM then they need a better investment adviser and someone to show the board what an endowment is. And if your claim is that the LTM fees need to go to paying bills (which you just alluded to in a prior post) then your staff is over spending, as the amounts you get from LTM cant be counted on on a yearly basis as a budget item nor should they go toward annual operating costs.

Sounds like someone is pulling the wool over someone's eyes.

Thank you, Doug. You beat me to it. A lump sum payment in advance should be held in trust, not spent on near-term payables.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[DanG 1]

Okay folks, you want a lifetime membership for $1,000? Use the Doug_Davis plan and put your $1,000 in an investment vehicle earning 6%. Then pay your regular yearly dues out of the interest accrued.

There you go, LTM for $1,000. Quit yer bitchin'.

- Dan G

[PhreeZone 15]

Simple question - How much will the liability insurance (that is included in your membership) cost be per member in 15 years? It was just a few short years ago that claims were racking up so fast and high that the USPA was looking at having to increase the yearly fee dramatically just to keep up with the price hikes we were being told to pay from the insurance company and if I recall we were even being threatened with a drop from the carrier and were going to have to self-insure at a huge impact to users since we were going to need to build up a poll large enough to be classified as an insurance company with enough assets to cover multiple claims.

I get that $2500 is way too high of a price and I will always be a year to year member now but the reality is that is its costing the USPA $25 per member for the magizine and the insurance ever climbs to $75 per member plus the operational costs of running a 40,000 member organization we are looking at annual dues being similar what the BPA due structure is where the annual fee will be $150-200 a year. The Lifetime member option has to include inflation and raising costs into the cost up front.

Remember your "trust" idea means that the pool decreases every year as funds are drawn out and the potential for interest decreases to the point that the pool will not be able to be sustained and will drain out if the cost to offer the services increases. Then the cost is shared across every annual dues member.

Lets put it this way - would you be willing to have the annual dues raised by $5 per member to keep the Lifetime Member price at $1000?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Simple question - How much will the liability insurance (that is included in your membership) cost be per member in 15 years? It was just a few short years ago that claims were racking up so fast and high that the USPA was looking at having to increase the yearly fee dramatically just to keep up with the price hikes we were being told to pay from the insurance company and if I recall we were even being threatened with a drop from the carrier and were going to have to self-insure at a huge impact to users since we were going to need to build up a poll large enough to be classified as an insurance company with enough assets to cover multiple claims.

I wonder about that sometimes...

Remember when the carrier upped the premium skyhigh on the demo insurance? There was talk of doing away with it.

I called Sean Tucker who was at the time President of ICAS - he linked me up with the present carrier. Sean about fell out of his chair when I told him what we pay for 1 mil coverage...

'Our' per event costs is close to an aerobatic pilots annual premium!

Since the demo ins. is split evenly among the listed participants...I also carry 1mil personal liability just in case - it's about 250 a year. Wonder what 25,000 would be?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[PhreeZone 15]

One thing that might help is understanding the claims that are submitted on an annual basis so that the membership can understand where the dollar are going.

Just in my own experience I know of about $5,000 of pay outs that I have seen in the last 10 years. Things such as power line landings and the damage to the powerlines being picked up in the insurance claim. I also heard from someone directly involved with a shoe falling off in freefall, going through a homes skylight when the home owner was away and then rain damaging the property and the USPA insurance paid out for full repairs. When we rack up annual claims in the $10's of thousands of dollars someone wants to make profit off of that for the effort to do the paperwork.

It would be interesting to see how many claims are made on an annual basis from ICAS. I suspect they have a small base to insure of only 100 or so people and with a history of not making many claims if any their risk factor might be low and then their premiums are low too.

With the claims we have a history of racking up I would expect to have to pay a lot more until we can prove we are not making costly claims anymore also. As long as we have idiots like the one that flew into the minor league baseball player last year on a bandit demo we are not doing ourselves any favors in winning that battle.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com