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FreefallSnoopy

2nd Rig

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Alright so here's the deal. I work a 28 day schedule, 28 on, 28 off. In all reality after travel, i have 24 days to do with what I want. What I really want is to skydive more, but since I'm engaged to a wonderfully understanding woman, I like to spend weekends with her because we just don't get that much time together.

All that being said, I want to maximize my days at the dropzone. I have the monetary means to buy and keep a 2nd rig, and would ideally put them in a rotation with the packers. hopefully jumping on every single load. I'm sure there's a few people out there doing this. My question is, what am I not thinking about here? I understand that I will be jumping in on a lot of loads where i'll only be whoring into jumps a lot, and I'd be scrambling. I made a new years resolution to make at least 200 skydives this year and if at all possible make 337 (to make an even 500 overall). Understanding that the jumping season is gearing up now and all that, anyone have any advice? My biggest one would be what size parachute to get? I'm flying a 188 now, and think I could be happy with that for the whole year, but obviously almost everyone would want to downsize at some point. I'll quit my rambling at that, its just these days where I can't jump and won't be able to for weeks on end kill me!

Thanks

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My opinion: Switching sizes of canopies or kinds of gear for every other jump, is like jumping borrowed gear all of the time. This is simply my opinion, but I think a second rig,(jumped regularly, as in every other jump) should be exactly like the first rig. Same container, same main, same everything. That way you can focus on your jumping, not thinking in the back of your mind, 'which rig do I have on this jump' etc. Also, If you have dissimilar mains or containers, (or both) I think mentally you will choose a favorite between the two, and be on a down cycle when you jump the second choice one. I think you should love your gear on every jump.

This is not to say a second rig, if jumped for different purposes should be the same. As in a regular sport rig and a rig for demos. Or one for regular jumping and one for swooping. It's the plan to alternate that would bother me.
Heck, maybe it's just me.

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Maybe this is the opportunity to really put a lot of jumps on 2 different containers and get a long term side by side opinion of both?
Also, what he said ^^^ have canopies be the same, everything rigged the same, with the same deployment and emergency equipment in the same places. Two seconds to reach in the wrong place is too long.

Also, consider a real evaluation of 2 rigs being enough for the turn time (airplanes and packers) at your dz. Making every single load for sure would mean 2 rigs and a backup at a busy dz, not so much at one without quick planes or with shutdowns in between loads.

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What sort of dropzone will you be jumping at (small Cesna dropzone or a big one with lots of loads going up)? Because it seems to me for 200 jumps in a year you don't necessarily need a 2nd rig if your dropzone does a decent amount of loads on week days.

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I would propose that before you throw down 6 grand on a 2nd rig that you look at the jumps you make and ask yourself if you're maximizing them. By that i mean are you doing jumps that help to make you a better skydiver or are you just pounding out solos and zoo dives. While they may be fun, I'm not sure they're the best use of your hard earned money.

PS - I've been able to make 200 jumps in a year since I started and Im not at the dropzone every weekend. There's some months where I only make it out once or twice.

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I have an older vector and I am assembling a newer Jav.
Not ideal to have two different containers, but I think I can limit the discomfort by having the same setup: exact same main (this is important for many different reasons), both with skyhook, both with soft+Dring, same type of hackey, etc.
Try to at least do that if, like me, you couldn't really choose your 1st rig (used gear, good deal, etc.).
It would be nice to have two exact same rigs, because then everything is interchangeable and you can have a bunch of replacement parts that will always work (risers, PCs, etc.), but it's not that big of a deal, I think, just convenient.
Also, keep an eye out when packing: a few things here and there are different, like the closing sequence, e.g. first time I packed a jav after being used to V3s, I had to unstow everything because I was stowing the lines the same way I do on the V3 (I know, stupid me, but still, it might happen), and I didn't see that they have different dbags until I was done and the lines where completely messed up.B|
My 2c.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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My opinion.

Consistent back to backs: you need to have a plan in place before the day as to what your jumps will be. You will have no time to prep in between jumps. Most people who do that have a 2 or 4 jump plan at a time (say, 2 different jumps, repeated, already prepped). Why? jumping just to add another digit top your log book won't be that effective in improving your skills. If you do that, have 2 rigs that are carbon copies of each other (or as close to it as you can).

The odd back to back, or the packer is getting behind once in a while: a pair of carbon copy rigs would still be ideal, but, in reality, 2 -about the same- rigs will do.


And, a back to back day should be easily 10 (at the very least) to 15-18 jumps. Plan for that, both for food, energy, planning. If you feel that's too much, you don't need a second rig.
Remster

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Team jumper here, and during training season we do back to backs on a regular basis.

Man, I thought this was going to be a easy post, but the more I think about it...there is quite a bit to it.

If you are set up to do back to backs, it is a lot of fun and a way to crank out a lot of jumps in a short amount of time, but there are risks...and also you need to have several things in place to be able to do it.

We typically get out on a low pass (10.5). This really helps several things. It gives us an extra 3-5 mins to land, dump gear, check new gear, gear up and make it to the plane without slowing down the operation or pissing off the pilots. It also gives us clean air to quickly get to the ground without 20+ other canopies in the sky. We all jump moderately to highly loaded wings, and are skilled enough to land close by safely and consistently.

Keep your packers in mind. Doing back to backs puts a significant extra load on them and makes their timing of other customers more tricky. Tip them well...they will be busting ass for you.

To do it-
DZ permission- You can't slow down their operation, and you can't be an undue risk to yourself or others.

You need to be able to safely get down with enough time to get in, and swap gear. If you get out last and have big gear...are you going to be able to land quickly without putting others at risk by spiraling down or cutting people off?


Are you disciplined enough not to hammer yourself into the ground trying to make the next load because you told manifest you could?

One of the big risks I see, even with the teams is the gearing up part. I see people running to the plane with leg straps and chest straps undone too often. Trying to gear up next to the plane etc. IMO, it's a really bad idea to do it that way.

Have you thought about joining a team? The way many of us do it is pretty well established, and I think would be safer than trying to do back to backs going all the way to full altitude with a full load of canopy traffic to deal with. We normally have a dozen or so jumps done no later than 2PM in the summer (back to back loads, then a 20 min call).

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I've never had less than two rigs and often 3 or 4. After the second one they were usually special, demo, CRW, etc. At one time I was jumping a 'normal' rig, a complete mirror image (left hand throw out and reversed RC and cutaway handles) and a ripcord round rig. I freely admit this was not ideal (dangerous) but worked for me.

If they both get you down in most situations they can be as different or as similar as you want. Two different size canopies, different rigs different flight characteristics, one that opens in 300' instead of 800', all the options are open.

Think about it, buy used gear for the second rig, and have fun.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Quote

Consistent back to backs: you need to have a plan in place before the day as to what your jumps will be. You will have no time to prep in between jumps. ... Why? jumping just to add another digit top your log book won't be that effective in improving your skills. If you do that, have 2 rigs that are carbon copies of each other (or as close to it as you can).

Yup -- figure out what your goals are (just amassing jumps is a goal, but you can have a goal within that also). You can have different ones during the time, and plan for each day.

With lots of weekday jumps, you'll most likely be doing smaller-ways with other lonesomes, or solo freeflying. You might want to spend a day, e.g., working on sitting in one place. Decide when you want video (it's the ONLY way on a skydive to make sure you're in one place), like at the beginning and end of the day.

Enjoy. That's the most important.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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My two rigs have different containers but everything else is identical - main, reserve, AAD. One (my original rig, which is now my backup) is a Wings that wasn't built for me, so it's not as comfortable. The other is an Infinity, custom built for me and uber-cushy, so I'll always choose it if it's packed.

Yes, there are differences between the two containers, but they're not enough to really be an issue for me; it just means that sometimes on the plane I glance down to double check my RSL and chest strap and look on the wrong side before I realize which rig I'm wearing. But I do like the fact that when I open my main, other than color scheme, I know I'm landing the exact same canopy each time.

So far I've only ever done 20 minute calls, though my team is talking about trying to do some back-to-backs later in the training season. Even for 20 minute calls, though, having a second rig is really nice in that if the packer gets backed up doing other team members that only have one rig, I know I've always got a rig ready to throw on. If I can avoid standing over the packer staring him down while the plane is taxiing into the loading area, I'm happier, he's happier, and I don't have to rush. :D

All that said, I didn't get a 2nd rig till I'd been in this sport 7 years. Hitting 200 jumps a year with a part-time jump schedule with one rig really isn't that big of a challenge. You might be better off spending your money on a lot of other things that can make you a better skydiver and canopy pilot, like coaching, canopy courses, etc. At your jump numbers, quality over quantity will likely advance you faster.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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With a little over 100 jumps I went to a busy DZ with the goal to jump as much as I could for a 16 day period.

I pack for myself and I am not fast, needing about 20 minutes from the time I land until packed. This was during the winter with flying operations from 8-5 or 9-5. On the days where weather did not stop us, I was able to jump 7 and 8 times per day.

With loads going up every 20 minutes, I could get on every 4th load and have some time in between to plan the jumps. I was able to stay with a specific group of jumpers as well, as we all hit about the same turn around time. If I had been paying a packer, every 3th load would have most likely been possible.

At it turned out I was able to jump 14 of the 16 days and many of those 14 days were short days due to clouds or early morning fog. In 14 days I did 82 jumps, averaging almost 6 per day, including those short days.

At the end of the trip, I was burned out on jumping (rushing) and ready to take a break.

If you asked me for my advice, it would be to do one of your 26 day DZ visits with one rig and see how it works for you. Or, maybe rent a second rig for one day while on one of your visits and see what real advantages it brings to the table.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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FreefallSnoopy

Alright so here's the deal. I work a 28 day schedule, 28 on, 28 off. In all reality after travel, i have 24 days to do with what I want. What I really want is to skydive more, but since I'm engaged to a wonderfully understanding woman, I like to spend weekends with her because we just don't get that much time together.

All that being said, I want to maximize my days at the dropzone. I have the monetary means to buy and keep a 2nd rig, and would ideally put them in a rotation with the packers. hopefully jumping on every single load. I'm sure there's a few people out there doing this. My question is, what am I not thinking about here? I understand that I will be jumping in on a lot of loads where i'll only be whoring into jumps a lot, and I'd be scrambling. I made a new years resolution to make at least 200 skydives this year and if at all possible make 337 (to make an even 500 overall). Understanding that the jumping season is gearing up now and all that, anyone have any advice? My biggest one would be what size parachute to get? I'm flying a 188 now, and think I could be happy with that for the whole year, but obviously almost everyone would want to downsize at some point. I'll quit my rambling at that, its just these days where I can't jump and won't be able to for weeks on end kill me!

Thanks




Why? What is your goal, just to build numbers? For most people skydiving is a recreational activity…….its suppose to be fun, not a job. If you make every load during the week you will end up doing solos are on throw together garbage load. Slow down and smell the air.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Isn't skydiving about numbers? every interview always posts numbers, RW, freefly, WS, BASE. Every license comes with a number. Every "group" or whatever has a number (Muff Bros, BASE, Anvil Bros, etc.). Everyone bases experience and knowledge with numbers. So what is the problem with striving for numbers? You seem to fail to understand the numbers I'm working with here. I have approximately 21 weeks a year to jump, in which I usually have 2-4 days per week to jump. You see where I want to jump excessively when I have the chance to jump? That's about 45 jump days a year, assuming perfect weather and such, its really not a lot of chance. So if I maximize every day that I'm at the DZ, I can maybe myself not hate being out of the sky so much when I'm at work.

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well Your life certainly seems to be about numbers and so I can understand your point...
But in our sport "Numbers" tend to take care of themselves...
Try not to get distracted by them, and simply jump at whatever is a comfortable pace, for You.
IF you go real fast... many many jumps each day, many days in succession then HOW well can you savor each jump, re-visualize it a few times. ??
In recent years I'd maybe make 2, or 3 jumps on any given weekend B| and for the next week, I'd Re-Enjoy them in my mind.. Stay around long enough and the numbers just happen. It's been a long time since I've jumped 20 or 24 days in any given month. But everyones pace is different.

It seems that if you're making 6, to 8 jumps a day that they'd all blend together.:| make so many loads, and when is there time for dirt dives and more importantly de-briefs ?

Still, your choice.

As for a second rig, NWFlyers post above, is excellent..

Be sure to log those jumps and not forget them..
and when you " jump excessively when I have the chance to jump " do so with good care and attention.
skydive safely

:)

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FreefallSnoopy

Everyone bases experience and knowledge with numbers. So what is the problem with striving for numbers?



Stick around for a while and you start to realize it's not that simple. I have over 1000 jumps but if someone invited me on a freefly jump, saying "I have over 1000 jumps" would be meaningless in representing any skill set to be on that jump.

Similarly, if I invite someone with 1000+ jumps who's only ever done freefly after they got their A license on a 4-way jump with me, I'll actually have fairly low expectations for their performance on the jump.

As someone who's just started being an RW organizer in the last year or so, I can also very easily tell the difference between someone who's had 300 high quality RW jumps and someone who's had 600 zoo dives in a bunch of different disciplines. I'd probably put either of them on a jump with me and not worry too much about them being unsafe, but it's almost guaranteed the person with 300 jumps is going to turn more points. If that's one of the goals of the skydive... quality over quantity matters.

So it's not all about numbers. Numbers are a starting point (even for licenses... you'll note that every single license also has some skill demonstration associated with it).

So jump your ass off if you can/want to, get two rigs if you can/want to, but don't be surprised if you actually get bored pretty quickly with the quality of jumps you'll be able to do in that rush.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Our team did 8 jumps a day, over the weekend, on 1 rig each (well except the 2 losers who had a reserve ride lol), and we were done by 2 pm each day. That's with creeping or debriefing between jumps. You don't need 2 rigs to do the numbers you are looking at. You need a good DZ with plenty of lifts.
Remster

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I'd agree.

This weekend I ended up spending one full day doing mostly back to backs from 13.5.... and while in some ways it was awesome, it was also far from ideal. I thought we were going to do some 10.5 passes, but it didn't work out that way.

Even under a sub 100 canopy, I was not able to land quickly often due to traffic. Several times I landed when the plane was within 1 min from touch down. If it wasn't for my awesome packer who took care of many of the steps I am usually responsible for, I wouldn't have been able to make the plane, or at least would have made them wait several mins.

Most of the time I was grabbing my second rig as the plane was coming to a stop to pick up the next load.

Lots of running. No time for any sort of dirt dive or de-brief. Just go...go...go. Every other load with a good packer allowing you to get 10-12 jumps a day would be a better way to go IMO.

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Originally when I got a second rig I thought it was going to be for turning loads faster. Now I would say that 60% of the reason i own two rigs is to be able to do multiple disciplines, 40% is so I can turn loads faster (or do a coach jump without messing up our groups' cycle)

I have two rigs. A '97 Javelin with a Sabre2 135 in it, and an '11 Wings with a spectre 150. Javelin's got a hackey and a D-ring, Wings's got a PUD and two pillows. Speaking to "dissimilar gear." I personally don't have any sort of issues with that, and if you have a disciplined mind you might not either.

Only on occasion do I pay a packer and jump every load. Those days I'm usually rolling up without my normal jump buddies and just trying to feel as much air as possible. On those days I usually only make 40-60% of my skydives with other people. A lot of those are hop and pops. Honestly, most of the days I set out to "jump my ass off" I usually meet some people I want to jump with and end up slowing down anyways.

Some things to expect:

Your freefall jumps will suffer in quality if you're outpacing everyone else at the drop zone and are not allowing yourself enough time to meet people and or dirt dive with them. You just can't expect to get serious training value if you are landing, putting on a new rig and getting back onto a plane.
If you can maximize your canopy piloting training and that appeals to you, then "crappy freefall" may not be an issue for you.

You will be absolutely exhausted at the end of every day.

You will not be able to enjoy a lot of the social aspects of hanging out at a DZ




Have you thought about instead spending your money on the tunnel? Go for a couple of days, every couple of months. You will make phenomenal progress in your skills and be able to productively use that at the dropzone. You will make similar, if not better, progress than if you get a turn rig but won't need to be in a mad rush every time you go to the DZ. Just make sure you get coaching
SCR 15081, SCS 8334, TDS 893

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I actually did almost 2 and half hours this month. Tremendous fun, tremendous progress, but no canopy time.

I guess maybe stating that I jump at Mile-Hi and have a few minutes in a trailer to discuss the jumps with the people I jumped with. Quite often I get into a rotation with the same people, and have often times ended up doing a repeated jump with them. Catching every 4th load is easy, but on a day with only 12 loads that's still only 3 jumps.

My other thought is to have the 2nd rig for wingsuit. This way I could get into a rotation with some of the inflatable fun guys, then jump right over to some belly or freefly jumps. That seems to be bigger to me, instead of having to put the wingsuit (PF) onto the rig or take it off, just have another rig.

Its all just an idea at this point, I get losing quality of jumps, I get changing of gear though I would stick with the same canopies. However I don't know a lot of people that aren't just throwing together a small zoo dive of some kind for every jump. The lower jump number guys usually just go for belly, speed star, or a sitfly jump. No ones out there doing 4 way at my dz, and the freefly guys are either tunnel instructors or rats.

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