Packer's Liability

[travisprill 0]

I'm curious if anyone has any data pertaining to an independent contractor working as a packer at a dz where a rig they packed was involved in an accident. Is there any precedence where the packer was sued or in any way held financially responsible for anything? I've dug through the forums here as well as elsewhere out on the interwebs, and can't find anything.

In our highly litigious society, I'm curious if this is a concern since most dz's don't carry insurance and an independent contractor is not an actual employee.

[NWFlyer 2]

The overwhelming majority of packers I've met have very shallow pockets. What they make goes directly back into their living/jumping expenses. Filing a lawsuit against them wouldn't get you much of anything.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[yoink 321]

NWFlyer

The overwhelming majority of packers I've met have very shallow pockets. What they make goes directly back into their living/jumping expenses. Filing a lawsuit against them wouldn't get you much of anything.

It'd get you ostracized from the skydiving community pretty quick.


For the OP - packers do the best jobs they can, but shit happens. If you want to minimize the chances of it, pack your own rig.
Remember - you pay for a packjob, not the opening. Learning stuff like this is part of learning to skydive...

The corollary to that is that packers need to do the best they can. You don't get just to scoop up the parachute and throw it in a container any old how without any repercussions. They may not be legal ones, but there would definitely be some...

[justme12001 0]

you pay for the pack job....not the opening!

[airtwardo 6]

Anybody can sue anyone for just about anything at anytime...

Finding someone willing to file against a packer, once their assets are disclosed might be kinda tough though -

Liquidating the total assets of a bicycle with 2 flat tires, a packin' tool & 3 used pull up cords isn't all that cost effective.

Remember - it's an assumed risk paying someone in that role...the packing is 'guaranteed' ~ but the opening isn't!

Interesting question for your 3rd post on the site BTW!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[yoink 321]

I wonder if you can sue lawyers who don't get verdicts you want?

[travisprill 0]

NWFlyer

The overwhelming majority of packers I've met have very shallow pockets. What they make goes directly back into their living/jumping expenses. Filing a lawsuit against them wouldn't get you much of anything.

Many packers are highschoolers, so the food chain naturally goes up to the parents...

[airtwardo 6]

yoink

I wonder if you can sue lawyers who don't get verdicts you want?

I bet ya could!

But if the 2nd guy lost it would like holding a mirror up to a mirror & as we all KNOW - that's how Black Holes are created!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Bertt 0]

"Interesting question for your 3rd post on the site BTW! "

Only the 3rd. Maybe his law firm just isn't very busy.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[trigger 0]

Malfunctions can be and often caused by poor body position...just saying.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[travisprill 0]

airtwardo

Anybody can sue anyone for just about anything at anytime...

Finding someone willing to file against a packer, once their assets are disclosed might be kinda tough though -

Liquidating the total assets of a bicycle with 2 flat tires, a packin' tool & 3 used pull up cords isn't all that cost effective.

Remember - it's an assumed risk paying someone in that role...the packing is 'guaranteed' ~ but the opening isn't!

Interesting question for your 3rd post on the site BTW!

Thanks! I guess I now have a reputation to uphold. Perhaps I should have set the bar lower.

My initial inquiry was not so much for upjumpers as we understand the 'can't blame anyone if had the opportunity to do it yourself' mentality... however, what about student rigs or tandems? Which is where my original post was meant to be geared toward.

[airtwardo 6]

travisprill

***The overwhelming majority of packers I've met have very shallow pockets. What they make goes directly back into their living/jumping expenses. Filing a lawsuit against them wouldn't get you much of anything.

Many packers are highschoolers, so the food chain naturally goes up to the parents...

High Schoolers?? 'Naturally' ?

Both statements lend the audience to assume you don't spend a lotta time jumping & more with civil liability statutes...coincidence?

Where I jump most often - commercially utilized parachute equipment is packed either by or under the supervision of a federally licensed rigger.

Is it different at your DZ?

Curious as to that location & the actual context your query pertains to?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[travisprill 0]

Bertt

"Interesting question for your 3rd post on the site BTW! "

Only the 3rd. Maybe his law firm just isn't very busy.

Being called a lawyer... worst insult of the year for me. I'd sue, but then I'd have to talk to a lawyer.

[airtwardo 6]

travisprill

***"Interesting question for your 3rd post on the site BTW! "

Only the 3rd. Maybe his law firm just isn't very busy.

Being called a lawyer... worst insult of the year for me. I'd sue, but then I'd have to talk to a lawyer.

Look on the bright side...year ain't even half over YET!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[RiggerLee 61]

I've never heard of it happening. It might be tough. There generally isn't a paper trail or certificates. I think it would be hard to take it into court. And It would have to be some thing other then financially motivated. It would have to be a grudge from a family capable of financing the lawsuit them selves.

Having said that, packers play a roll in many fatalities. It's just the odds on a drop zone where 75% of the mains are packed by packers. I'm really surprised that they've never been drawn into it in an effort to draw the drop zone into the suit. And I'm surprised the whole subcontractor thing has not been challenged. The truth is that that has been used to illegally pay staff for years. Work force would take one look at it and shut the whole place down and fine them out of existence.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[travisprill 0]

airtwardo

******The overwhelming majority of packers I've met have very shallow pockets. What they make goes directly back into their living/jumping expenses. Filing a lawsuit against them wouldn't get you much of anything.

Many packers are highschoolers, so the food chain naturally goes up to the parents...

High Schoolers?? 'Naturally' ?

Both statements lend the audience to assume you don't spend a lotta time jumping & more with civil liability statutes...coincidence?

While I'm not a permanent fixture at my local DZ, and I'm fairly new in the sport (2 years) I have seen a lot of high schoolers packing and, while I don't have kids myself, I do understand that parents are generally responsible financially for their kids... am I wrong?

BTW I am not a lawyer, this comes from a concerned parent friend who has a 16 year old that desperately wants to be a packer, but the parent is worried about liability... I knew I'd get attacked as I am quite familiar with how people post here. It's cool. I can hold my own at the bonfire too.

I saw you added to your post... Yes, at my DZ, All packing is done under the supervision of riggers. All packers must take the packing course and be signed off by the rigger.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

...this comes from a concerned parent friend who has a 16 year old that desperately wants to be a packer, but the parent is worried about liability... I knew I'd get attacked as I am quite familiar with how people post here. It's cool. I can hold my own at the bonfire too.

AS a parent ~ I wouldn't let MY 16 year old anywhere near a DZ unsupervised!

BTW ~ I'm not 'attacking' you...Us People tend to shoot straight from the hip, if it feels like an attack, that's more on you than me.

Just something to consider if you find yourself 'Holding your own' at the bonfire a lot.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[countzero 7]

You do sign a waiver the covers the DZ and the gear the DZ's gear, thus gear packed by a DZ packer.

If you have a packer pack gear that you own the responsability falls on the owner of the gear. You should pack for yourself.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

yoink

I wonder if you can sue lawyers who don't get verdicts you want?

I'd like those odds -- they obviously couldn't have been a very good lawyer in the first place!

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Lee,

Quote

I think it would be hard to take it into court.

That depends. About 25 yrs or so ago, a guy goes in with nothing out. His wife contacts an attorney. The attorney 'shotguns' the lawsuit; that means listing anyone that they could possibly imagine might have some liability.

ParaGear spent $10,000 getting out of the lawsuit because they had their name printed on the Packing Data Card.

Today, when you buy Packing Data Cards from ParaGear, their name is not on the cards.

Any competent law firm would shotgun the lawsuit and then let the courts decide who gets included and who gets excused.

C'est la vie,

JerryBaumchen

[chuckakers 370]

yoink

I wonder if you can sue lawyers who don't get verdicts you want?

Happens all the time. Plaintiffs typically sue claiming negligence, breach of fiduciary duty, or breach of contract.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[yoink 321]

chuckakers

***I wonder if you can sue lawyers who don't get verdicts you want?

Happens all the time. Plaintiffs typically sue claiming negligence, breach of fiduciary duty, or breach of contract.

Not just for being shit though? ;)

[chuckakers 370]

yoink

******I wonder if you can sue lawyers who don't get verdicts you want?

Happens all the time. Plaintiffs typically sue claiming negligence, breach of fiduciary duty, or breach of contract.

Not just for being shit though? ;)

That depends on who you're asking?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DrewEckhardt 0]

airtwardo

Where I jump most often - commercially utilized parachute equipment is packed either by or under the supervision of a federally licensed rigger.

On the drop zone from first to last load with no lunch break? Not doing tandems while "supervising?"

Quote

Is it different at your DZ?

To my knowledge the FAA has never challenged one of my DZs' definitions of "supervision," although I expect a lawyer could with decent chances of success.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

On the drop zone from first to last load with no lunch break? Not doing tandems while "supervising?"

Actually I can't ever recall there not being at least one rigger in the packing room during the day, when I'm there anyway.

YMMV

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~