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funjumper101

What is woke

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18 minutes ago, beowulf said:

Equity would be included along with Critical Theory and Critical Race Theory.

It's more than just being alert to injustice in society.

OK great!  So what's the "more?"

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Here is how the activists would define the word woke  . . .

Again, I asked YOU for what YOUR definition of woke is.  Not what you think activists think.  Can you do it?  Can you define this thing you have been railing against by using your own words?  It's a very simple question.

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A better way to put it would be an American version of Marxism. Woke doesn't stand by itself.

They are almost opposites.  Marxism is a belief that we should have a classless society, where everyone works for the good of everyone else, and no one has to struggle against class (i.e. castes in India, or the wealthy here in the US.)  Woke is the awareness that there ARE struggles against class.  

To put it another way, if there ever is a perfect Marxist society (and there never will be) - there will be no such thing as woke because there WILL be no injustice in society.  Likewise, in an anti-Marxist (say, a 100% capitalist) society there will be more injustices to be aware of, and awareness of them will be more important.  For example, the woke people of the 1850's realized that slavery was a huge injustice, and worked to end it - while many southerners explained that slaves were perfectly happy and indeed better off than they would have been in Africa, and hence talking about injustice was stupid.

So I guess you could claim that being woke leads to a more classless, more just society, and that those goals align.  But if that's true, then being woke is as much Marxist as it is regulated free market, since a free market brings prosperity to more people (and reduces economic injustice) while those regulations prevent abuses common to a free market (like monopolies and slavery.)

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24 minutes ago, billvon said:

OK great!  So what's the "more?"

Again, I asked YOU for what YOUR definition of woke is.  Not what you think activists think.  Can you do it?  Can you define this thing you have been railing against by using your own words?  It's a very simple question.

They are almost opposites.  Marxism is a belief that we should have a classless society, where everyone works for the good of everyone else, and no one has to struggle against class (i.e. castes in India, or the wealthy here in the US.)  Woke is the awareness that there ARE struggles against class.  

To put it another way, if there ever is a perfect Marxist society (and there never will be) - there will be no such thing as woke because there WILL be no injustice in society.  Likewise, in an anti-Marxist (say, a 100% capitalist) society there will be more injustices to be aware of, and awareness of them will be more important.  For example, the woke people of the 1850's realized that slavery was a huge injustice, and worked to end it - while many southerners explained that slaves were perfectly happy and indeed better off than they would have been in Africa, and hence talking about injustice was stupid.

So I guess you could claim that being woke leads to a more classless, more just society, and that those goals align.  But if that's true, then being woke is as much Marxist as it is regulated free market, since a free market brings prosperity to more people (and reduces economic injustice) while those regulations prevent abuses common to a free market (like monopolies and slavery.)

 

Critical Race Theory is a version of Marxism that replaces class with race. They think of whiteness or white privilege as constituting a kind of cultural private property. Marx wanted to abolish private property. CRT wants to abolish whiteness. Woke is a way to get people to constantly focus on race by being "acutely aware of racial and social injustice". I don't necessarily have my own definition of the word Woke. I see that it's more than just being aware of injustice because of it's hyper focus on racial differences in an effort to push CRT. Robin DiAngelo in her book White Fragility essentially says that all white people are racist. So for her being woke means realizing that.

I guess if I had to come up with my own definition of woke. It would be... Woke = Hyper focus on race and racial injustice, excluding white people.

 

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46 minutes ago, beowulf said:

Critical Race Theory is a version of Marxism that replaces class with race.

Critical Race Theory is a study, not an economic or governmental plan.  CRT studies (for example) redlining.  It is no more "like Marxism" than European history classes are "like Marxism" just because they talk about countries that have tried it.  It is a course taught in some colleges - not a system of anything.

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CRT wants to abolish whiteness.

Nope.  Again, no more than physics wants to abolish gravity.

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I don't necessarily have my own definition of the word Woke. 

THANK YOU for an honest answer!

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Woke = Hyper focus on race and racial injustice, excluding white people.

I think that's close to my definition of it.  However, since being woke also means (for example) being alert to the injustice experienced by white trans people, it doesn't just look at race - or exclude white people.

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2 minutes ago, beowulf said:

Critical Race Theory is a version of Marxism that replaces class with race.

You can change your class. You can not change your race. CRT is an obscure academic field that has been given boogeyman status by fearful conservative commentators. And you are now confused enough to say that you think there is a movement to abolish whiteness? 

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, beowulf said:

Critical Race Theory is a version of Marxism that replaces class with race. They think of whiteness or white privilege as constituting a kind of cultural private property.

Clearly they don’t, because that makes no sense to anyone who thinks about it for more than 5 seconds.

But let’s run with it. So anti-woke people think of white privilege as private property, and if white people successfully engineer society to enhance white privilege as much as possible, that’s a good thing because capitalism is good.

Dude, that’s a really weird thing for you to be in favour of.

Edited by jakee

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(edited)
7 minutes ago, jakee said:

Clearly they don’t, because that makes no sense to anyone who thinks about it for more than 5 seconds.

But let’s run with it. So anti-woke people think of white privilege as private property, and if white people successfully engineer society to enhance white privilege as much as possible, that’s a good thing because capitalism is good.

Dude, that’s a really weird thing for you to be in favour of.

You have that confused. It's not what I think or anti-woke think. That is Critical Race Theory. I think it's ridiculous. No one else thinks of white privilege as property. This came from Cheryl Harris who wrote an article for Harvard Law Review in 1993 called Whiteness as Property.

Edited by beowulf

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23 minutes ago, beowulf said:

This came from Cheryl Harris who wrote an article for Harvard Law Review in 1993 called Whiteness as Property.

Yep.  And there are extremist feminists who think that all sex is rape.  But that does not define feminism, any more than she defines CRT.

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14 minutes ago, beowulf said:

You have that confused. It's not what I think or anti-woke think. That is Critical Race Theory. I think it's ridiculous. No one else thinks of white privilege as property.

If you don’t think of white privilege as property then how can you think of disposing of it as Marxist?
 

How does disposing of any one type of property become Marxist anyway? Was abolishing slavery Marxist?

 

Oh, and if you can get around to attempting to explain why all people in power are racist, misogynistic Nazis just because Donald Trump is a racist misogynist with some Nazi followers that would be great. Because it still sounds really stupid to me.

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6 minutes ago, jakee said:

If you don’t think of white privilege as property then how can you think of disposing of it as Marxist?
 

How does disposing of any one type of property become Marxist anyway? Was abolishing slavery Marxist?

 

Oh, and if you can get around to attempting to explain why all people in power are racist, misogynistic Nazis just because Donald Trump is a racist misogynist with some Nazi followers that would be great. Because it still sounds really stupid to me.

I don't know how to write anything about this so that you don't misunderstand it. You totally confused everything I wrote.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, beowulf said:

I don't know how to write anything about this

Completely true.

10 minutes ago, beowulf said:

You totally confused everything I wrote.

No, that was you, remember? You had to completely delete and pretend you never wrote a reply because you misunderstood so badly?

So again;

12 minutes ago, beowulf said:

In his paragraph he expanded that to "people who occupy positions of systemic power and privilege and yet who refuse to acknowledge and work to dismantle them"

Explain why you can claim woke people think all the above are racist misogynistic Nazis just because Donald Trump is a racist misogynist with Nazi supporters?

Just give it one try. Because again, this is from the first article on the site of the guy you said best represented everything you think about wokeness - so surely you have some kind of answer?

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7 hours ago, airdvr said:

I get that Woke is a concept of realizing the social injustices done to people.  But as I've said before we live in a capitalist society.  Winners and losers.  To be successful you need to know the field and how to play.  My father taught me a lot of it.  The rest I learned from failure.

Not sure what I could do personally to effect change.  I'm all for being yourself but don't complain when that version of yourself is left standing on the sidelines.

Then I guess you support biological men competing against biological women in sports because it’s not about having an unfair advantage by virtue of your birth but rather that there are going to be winners and losers?

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9 hours ago, beowulf said:

Woke = Hyper focus on race and racial injustice, excluding white people.

No one ever said to exclude white people.

If 2 people arrive in ER and one of them is much more seriously injured than the other, they would need more attention from the doctors. But that doesn't mean the other person isn't injured, just less injured.

 

So your difficulties in life are perfectly valid. Nobody is saying you should be excluded from any help because you're white.

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17 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Then I guess you support biological men competing against biological women in sports because it’s not about having an unfair advantage by virtue of your birth but rather that there are going to be winners and losers?

I guess have a problem with that part of it then.

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1 minute ago, billvon said:

So you support everyone competing on an equal playing field - except for LGBT people?  Is it all LGBT people or just trans people?

I have a problem with trans women competing against biological women.

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2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I have a problem with trans women competing against biological women.

I do to some degree as well, though Trans is a big bucket.

I wonder if we should just start dividing fields in competitions by testosterone levels.

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52 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I do to some degree as well, though Trans is a big bucket.

I wonder if we should just start dividing fields in competitions by testosterone levels.

Something like that, but I’d say by estrogen levels instead.

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58 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I have a problem with trans women competing against biological women.

How about XY women?  (i.e. women who were born women but are genetically male.)  If they find out 5 years after they join the team, do they have to then play on a men's team?

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5 minutes ago, billvon said:

How about XY women?  (i.e. women who were born women but are genetically male.)  If they find out 5 years after they join the team, do they have to then play on a men's team?

Well, they are missing 12.5% of the lines that make an XX so maybe they should just get paid 12.5% less and be done with it.

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49 minutes ago, billvon said:

do they have to then play on a men's team?

Every challenge along the way With courage I will face I will battle everyday To claim my rightful place! Come with me; the time is right! There's no better team Arm in arm, we'll win the fight! It's always been our dream!

Pokeman Theme Song Version XY

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On 5/11/2023 at 2:25 PM, BIGUN said:

 

Every challenge along the way With courage I will face I will battle everyday To claim my rightful place! Come with me; the time is right! There's no better team Arm in arm, we'll win the fight! It's always been our dream!

Pokeman Theme Song Version XY

I don't know much about Pokeman but I'm in the Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach area for a quick run and, while here, I hit 3 different Apple stores to get a solution for getting my data from 2 bricked MacAirs onto a new one. Let me tell you, if pronoun confusion, concern over skin color, age, sex, tattoo's, piercings, sexuality, or any of the panoply of concerns so many people have today is a bother for you then buy Dell. In the West Palm Beach store, with everyone else baffled, they wheeled out this 23 year old kid, who fit the description of too many fears, and who then quickly looked at a couple of things and told me no problem it'll be done in two hours but you need to wait. I have to believe the tent is big enough for everyone, seriously.

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

I don't know much about Pokeman but I'm in the Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach area for a quick run and, while here, I hit 3 different Apple stores to get a solution for getting my data from 2 bricked MacAirs onto a new one. Let me tell you, if pronoun confusion, concern over skin color, age, sex, tattoo's, piercings, sexuality, or any of the panoply of concerns so many people have today is a bother for you then buy Dell. In the West Palm Beach store, with everyone else baffled, they wheeled out this 23 year old kid, who fit the description of too many fears, and who then quickly looked at a couple of things and told me no problem it'll be done in two hours but you need to wait. I have to believe the tent is big enough for everyone, seriously.

Alan Turing was pretty good at that sort of thing too. Or at least he was until he was badgered into killing himself.

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