What is woke

[kallend 1,621]

"Woke" is a word that originated in the AAVE (or Ebonic) dialect that has been assimilated into standard English..

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[BIGUN 1,049]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

"Woke" is a word that originated in the AAVE (or Ebonic) dialect

You made me do some homework. Interesting history:

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It can be hard to trace slang back to its origins since slang’s origins are usually spoken, and it can be particularly difficult to trace a slang word that has its origins in a dialect. Woke’s transformation into a byword of social awareness likely started decades earlier but began to be more broadly known in 2008, with the release of Erykah Badu’s song “Master Teacher”:

Even if yo baby ain't got no money
To support ya baby, you
(I stay woke)
Even when the preacher tell you some lies
And cheatin on ya mama, you stay woke
(I stay woke)
Even though you go through struggle and strife
To keep a healthy life, I stay woke
(I stay woke)
Everybody knows a black or a white there's creatures in every shape and size
Everybody
(I stay woke)

Stay woke became a watch word in parts of the black community for those who were self-aware, questioning the dominant paradigm and striving for something better. But stay woke and woke became part of a wider discussion in 2014, immediately following the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. The word woke became entwined with the Black Lives Matter movement; instead of just being a word that signaled awareness of injustice or racial tension, it became a word of action. Activists were woke and called on others to stay woke.

Like many other terms from black culture that have been taken into the mainstream, woke is gaining broader uses. It’s now seeing use as an adjective to refer to places where woke people commune: woke Twitter has very recently taken off as the shorthand for describing social-media activists. The broader uses of woke are still very much in flux, and there are some who are woke to the broader implications of woke:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/woke-meaning-origin

[beowulf 1]

This includes What is Woke.

[beowulf 1]

I stand by my assertion that Wokism is a cult. There are varying degrees of membership in this cult. It's extremely difficult for people in a cult to realize it's a cult. If you want to understand why I think that, go to https://newdiscourses.com/ or watch their videos on Youtube or Rumble. It's very in depth and the sources are all provided. Those that are in the cult will mostly disparage me and the sources rather than argue the points made. Some will just say it's wrong, which is always a possibility. The more I research this topic the more convinced I am that it's a cult with roots in Marxism.

 

I get that most people will simply think I am an asshole. I am and I don't give a fuck. You can't have any serious discussion with out risking offending someone. So I prefer to be upfront in saying that I will offend someone or everyone. Grow up and grow a thick skin and get over it. Life is too short to be offended by everything.

[airdvr 197]

I get that Woke is a concept of realizing the social injustices done to people.  But as I've said before we live in a capitalist society.  Winners and losers.  To be successful you need to know the field and how to play.  My father taught me a lot of it.  The rest I learned from failure.

Not sure what I could do personally to effect change.  I'm all for being yourself but don't complain when that version of yourself is left standing on the sidelines.

[billvon 2,380]

10 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I get that Woke is a concept of realizing the social injustices done to people.  But as I've said before we live in a capitalist society.  Winners and losers.  To be successful you need to know the field and how to play.  My father taught me a lot of it.  The rest I learned from failure.

I agree with both of those things.  I also don't think they conflict.

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Not sure what I could do personally to effect change.  I'm all for being yourself but don't complain when that version of yourself is left standing on the sidelines.

I also agree there.  I don't think many trans or gay people are worried about being "left on the sidelines."  In fact I think they would prefer that to being actively cancelled.  (i.e. Dylan Mulvaney, violence against trans people, anti-trans legislation.)

[olofscience 420]

1 hour ago, beowulf said:

I get that most people will simply think I am an asshole. I am and I don't give a fuck. You can't have any serious discussion with out risking offending someone. So I prefer to be upfront in saying that I will offend someone or everyone. Grow up and grow a thick skin and get over it. Life is too short to be offended by everything.

Yet somehow you're actually offended by the concept of woke...

 

whoosh.

[jakee 1,254]

2 hours ago, beowulf said:

I stand by my assertion that Wokism is a cult. There are varying degrees of membership in this cult. It's extremely difficult for people in a cult to realize it's a cult. If you want to understand why I think that, go to https://newdiscourses.com/ or watch their videos on Youtube or Rumble. It's very in depth and the sources are all provided. Those that are in the cult will mostly disparage me and the sources rather than argue the points made. Some will just say it's wrong, which is always a possibility. The more I research this topic the more convinced I am that it's a cult with roots in Marxism.

It’s no great surprise that when you ‘research’ lots of right wing sources and what they say about woke that you’ll find lots of people saying woke is really bad.

Its also very transparently dishonest of you to set up the idea that people won’t address the points when you haven’t actually made any. You’ve just given some vague pointers about where you’ve seen stuff and posted a 30 minute video of some random test rambling on about who knows what. If you haven’t made the point in your own words, you have not provided a point to be argued against. 
 

But you’ll obviously just dismiss this as a response from a cult member, and use that as an excuse not to think about what’s being said to you.

[billvon 2,380]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:49 PM, GeorgiaDon said:

I think there are a number of ways to be "racist".  The most obvious of course is to overtly make and act on negative assumptions about people based on their pigmentation, hair texture, eye folds etc.  I'm sure such people still exist, but they are probably diminishing or at least getting better about "passing" as not racist.

And one thing that is getting more attention now is structural racism.  

One of the go-tos of the anti-woke crowd is that "I don't hate blacks, therefore nothing I do is racist."  But structural racism enables racism to continue even with people who are not inherently racist.  As you mentioned, redlining was a thing enforced by the government, and it was ended in 1968.  But many banks continued with the policy of setting mortgage risks and rates based on maps they had used forever.  Hey, it works, don't change it!  The maps no longer had actual red areas that denoted the black areas (of course) but they still contained those areas where mortgages were considered too risky.

So a bank officer who denies a black family a loan based on that map can say "hey, I have NOTHING against blacks!  I have a black friend.  I am the least racist person in the world" - and he'd be right.  But the STRUCTURE of the loan system in the bank is continuing those racist policies from decades earlier - and that officer is now implementing them.  And again, if you showed that to him, he would immediately claim that you were crazy because he is not racist.

Which is one of the reasons that structural racism is so insidious and hard to prevent.

[beowulf 1]

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It’s no great surprise that when you ‘research’ lots of right wing sources and what they say about woke that you’ll find lots of people saying woke is really bad.

This is a dishonest way of dismissing anything you don't like. James Lindsay takes the time and effort to back up what he says with the sources. He often quotes them directly so you can verify.

The source is less important than whether or not the information is correct. A source you don't like can be correct. A source that takes the time provide their sources allows you to verify their honesty.

 

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Its also very transparently dishonest of you to set up the idea that people won’t address the points when you haven’t actually made any. You’ve just given some vague pointers about where you’ve seen stuff and posted a 30 minute video of some random test rambling on about who knows what. If you haven’t made the point in your own words, you have not provided a point to be argued against. 

You can call it whatever you like, it's just pointing out the obvious. Link to the source is a vague pointer?

"rambling on about who knows what", nice way of avoiding arguing the points being made.

 

I don't have the time to write out all the details of what I think of Wokism, so I provided a website that has all of the points in text and video that does that for me. I couldn't do a better job than James Lindsay.

[billvon 2,380]

1 minute ago, beowulf said:

I don't have the time to write out all the details of what I think of Wokism, so I provided a website that has all of the points in text and video that does that for me. I couldn't do a better job than James Lindsay.

Sort of a cop-out to post a few thousand words condemning "wokism" and then say you don't have time to post what you think about it.

I can understand why.  Often anti-woke people have trouble defining what woke is other than "that which is bad."  As an example, conservative author Bethany Mandel recently wrote a book called "Stolen Youth" about the woke indoctrination that is going on in this country, and that is apparently stealing American's youth.  It was lauded by anti-woke cultists across the country. 

During an interview to promote her book, the interviewer asked a simple question: "What does that [woke] mean to you?"

Her answer:

"So  . . . I mean . . . woke is . . .sort of . . .  the idea that . . .uh . . .I . . .this is going to be one of those moments that goes viral . . .I mean, woke is something that is very hard to define, I spent an entire chapter defining it . . . it is sort of the understanding that we need to retotal . . totally reimagine and rean . .  re . . . reduce society in order to create hierarchies of oppression . . . um . . . sorry . . .it's hard to explain in a 15 second soundbite."  (She had been going on for 45 seconds at that point.)

Most anti-woke people can't even define the thing they are opposing.  Which again is not surprising; it's like asking an anti-socialist if they oppose socialist programs like public roads or veteran's hospitals.  They then struggle to come up with a defintion for socialism that excludes all the socialist programs they enjoy.

[beowulf 1]

15 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sort of a cop-out to post a few thousand words condemning "wokism" and then say you don't have time to post what you think about it.

I can understand why.  Often anti-woke people have trouble defining what woke is other than "that which is bad."  As an example, conservative author Bethany Mandel recently wrote a book called "Stolen Youth" about the woke indoctrination that is going on in this country, and that is apparently stealing American's youth.  It was lauded by anti-woke cultists across the country. 

During an interview to promote her book, the interviewer asked a simple question: "What does that [woke] mean to you?"

Her answer:

"So  . . . I mean . . . woke is . . .sort of . . .  the idea that . . .uh . . .I . . .this is going to be one of those moments that goes viral . . .I mean, woke is something that is very hard to define, I spent an entire chapter defining it . . . it is sort of the understanding that we need to retotal . . totally reimagine and rean . .  re . . . reduce society in order to create hierarchies of oppression . . . um . . . sorry . . .it's hard to explain in a 15 second soundbite."  (She had been going on for 45 seconds at that point.)

Most anti-woke people can't even define the thing they are opposing.  Which again is not surprising; it's like asking an anti-socialist if they oppose socialist programs like public roads or veteran's hospitals.  They then struggle to come up with a defintion for socialism that excludes all the socialist programs they enjoy.

You must be confused. I submitted a concise definition of Woke and provided links to two videos and a website that has tons of information.

Edited May 10, 2023 by beowulf

[wmw999 2,116]

Since Woke is evolving, any single definition is just an opinion. Whose opinions count more — those who dislike something and avoid it, or those who consider and study that same thing from the inside? Who can describe the US better, an American or a Russian?

Wendy P. 

[beowulf 1]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

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I don't have the time to write out all the details of what I think of Wokism, so I provided a website that has all of the points in text and video that does that for me. I couldn't do a better job than James Lindsay.

 

Sort of a cop-out to post a few thousand words condemning "wokism" and then say you don't have time to post what you think about it.

That doesn't make sense. I did post what I thought of it. You referred to my condemning "wokism", that's a pretty clear indication of what I think of it. But I also said I don't have time "write out all the details of what I think of Wokism".

I don't see the inconsistency that you are complaining about. You're objection seems to be that I don't have time to write an exhaustive essay on Woke? Really?

Instead of me taking the time to write in great detail on Woke, I submitted two videos and a website. I get that no matter what I write or reference on this topic you probably will find something to complain about.

 

 

[beowulf 1]

5 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Since Woke is evolving, any single definition is just an opinion. Whose opinions count more — those who dislike something and avoid it, or those who consider and study that same thing from the inside? Who can describe the US better, an American or a Russian?

Wendy P. 

Said another way, who has a better perspective someone on the inside of a cult or someone on the outside.

Who has a better perspective on the Wetboro Baptist Church, the members or someone outside of it?

 

[beowulf 1]

11 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Since Woke is evolving, any single definition is just an opinion. Whose opinions count more — those who dislike something and avoid it, or those who consider and study that same thing from the inside? Who can describe the US better, an American or a Russian?

Wendy P. 

If you never read any opposing opinions then how would you ever find out if you are wrong?

If you can't argue both sides then you are not fully informed.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by beowulf

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, beowulf said:

This is a dishonest way of dismissing anything you don't like. James Lindsay takes the time and effort to back up what he says with the sources. He often quotes them directly so you can verify.

Where does he do that? Take a look at the front page of the site you've just linked to and tell me honestly how obvious it is for me to see where he provides sources to support an argument that woke is Marxist?

If you can't be bothered to find it then I can't either, and simply revert to the default stance that you have made no effort to make any form of point that requires addressing. You've simply made some un-thought out, unsubstantiated assertions that are plain wrong.

 

But ok, if you're goig to say that Lindsay speaks for you and his site is your argument, here's a paragraph from his top trending article discussing why 'Woke people won't debate you' (the assertion that woke people won't debate is simly taken as axiomatic, by they way. It's not even supported by argument let alone evidence): Fourthly, the Critical Social Justice view sees people who occupy positions of systemic power and privilege and yet who refuse to acknowledge and work to dismantle them, to the full satisfaction of the Critical Social Justice Theorists, to be utterly morally reprehensible. They are racists. They are misogynists. They hate trans people and want to deny their very existence. They are bigots. They are fascists. They are “literal” Nazis.

 

This is absolutely, completely, obviously and very easily provably wrong. It's bullshit. It's fucking laughable. As Bill just explained above, people who occupy positions of power and influence in a system that perpetuates racial injustice or misogyny or whatever are absolutely not necessarily racists or misogynists even if that is the result of the framework they operate in. They just haven't paid attention to what's going on. That is literally why the word 'woke' is used, it's the opposite of being asleep. People who are asleep aren't Nazis. Only people who are actual Nazis are Nazis.

So how do you justify making such a ridiculously stupid argument?

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, beowulf said:

You must be confused. I submitted a concise definition of Woke 

Oh yes indeed - the very concise claim that woke is a cult that was 'created by the algorithms'. We definitely all now know exactly what woke people believe and have no further questions. Good thing you were here to help!

Edited May 10, 2023 by jakee

[beowulf 1]

I read it again and realized that you did quote the whole thing. I apologize for that.

Clearly he was describing the views Critical Social Justice and not his own.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by beowulf

[jakee 1,254]

5 minutes ago, beowulf said:

He was describing Critical Social Justice views not his own.

{Bangs head against wall}

I know. That's why I just said that his decription of those views is absolutely, completely, obviously and very easily provably wrong. It's bullshit. It's fucking laughable. It's the biggest strawman since Christopher Lee went to Summerisle.

So why did you make such a ridiculously stupid argument?

[beowulf 1]

Just now, jakee said:

{Bangs head against wall}

I know. That's why I just said that his decription of those views is absolutely, completely, obviously and very easily provably wrong. It's bullshit. It's fucking laughable. It's the biggest strawman since Christopher Lee went to Summerisle.

So why did you make such a ridiculously stupid argument?

I wrote that as apology for what I wrote originally. Not as a rebuttal as you seem to assume.

So you don't think Critical Social Justice views would consider Donald Trump or Trump supporters "to be utterly morally reprehensible. They are racists. They are misogynists. They hate trans people and want to deny their very existence. They are bigots. They are fascists. They are “literal” Nazis."

 

In his paragraph he expanded that to "people who occupy positions of systemic power and privilege and yet who refuse to acknowledge and work to dismantle them"

 

I would say that is probably correct.

 

[billvon 2,380]

1 hour ago, beowulf said:

You must be confused. I submitted a concise definition of Woke and provided links to two videos and a website that has tons of information.

Well, no, you really didn't.  Here's your "concise definition:"

It is the modern left/liberal culture created by algorithms on social media. It is characterized by cultlike adherence to rapidly changing ideological foundations rooted in various leftist theories. 

That says nothing about what it is other than it's a cult and it has leftist theories.  Taking away the pejorative, you have said it has "leftist theories" but haven't listed any of them.  The freeing of slaves in the US was a leftist theory; is it about that?  Voting for women was a leftist theory; is it about that?  Equity is a leftist theory; is it about that?

Part of the reason that Woke is hard for people to define is that what the Woke consider appropriate or part of their doctrine changes pretty quickly.

But we weren't asking you to create a strawman based on what you think other people think about it.  We were asking YOU how YOU define it.  It's not hard for me to define.  And while I am not 100% woke I am getting better.

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I don't see the inconsistency that you are complaining about. You're objection seems to be that I don't have time to write an exhaustive essay on Woke? Really?

Woke, to me, is being alert to injustice in society.  That's not only my definition, it's the dictionary definition.  Note I did not define it as "the sort of awareness that conservatives hate" or "things that make conservatives uncomfortable with their views on race" or "something conservatives will never understand."

Can you do something similar?  Define what it means TO YOU without posting a video or an essay of what someone else thinks about it, or creating a strawman of what you think other people think?  Not an exhaustive essay.  It took me seven words.  Surely you can do it in 100.

[billvon 2,380]

8 minutes ago, beowulf said:

So you don't think Critical Social Justice views would consider Donald Trump or Trump supporters "to be utterly morally reprehensible. They are racists. They are misogynists. They hate trans people and want to deny their very existence. They are bigots. They are fascists. They are “literal” Nazis."

Many of them might.  Many non-critical-social-justice people think exactly the same thing.  For example, E. Jean Carroll and her family, or the families of the police who fought the seditionists at the Capitol riot, or the juries in the Proud Boys trials.  Some have followed Critical Social Justice debates.  Most have not.  Some are liberals.  Some are conservatives.  Some are straight.  Some are gay.  Some are trans.  Some are black.  All share one characteristic, that they think very poorly of Trump and his followers.

[beowulf 1]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

Well, no, you really didn't.  Here's your "concise definition:"

It is the modern left/liberal culture created by algorithms on social media. It is characterized by cultlike adherence to rapidly changing ideological foundations rooted in various leftist theories. 

That says nothing about what it is other than it's a cult and it has leftist theories.  Taking away the pejorative, you have said it has "leftist theories" but haven't listed any of them.  The freeing of slaves in the US was a leftist theory; is it about that?  Equity is a leftist theory; is it about that?

Equity would be included along with Critical Theory and Critical Race Theory.

It's more than just being alert to injustice in society.

Here is how the activists would define the word woke specifically.

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The notion of “getting woke” (or staying woke) is defined as being acutely aware of racial and social injustice—not just awareness and acknowledgement of isolated incidents, but awareness from a position of understanding systemic and institutional racism. … The notion of getting woke encapsulates the first stage of becoming an accomplice in addressing the system of racism… White accomplices should strive to be woke enough not to call themselves woke and instead strive to embody this state of being by building with people of color. … Be in a perpetual state of learning and be woke enough to know you are never woke enough

But all of this rolls up into Critical Theory, Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality.

 

A better way to put it would be an American version of Marxism. Woke doesn't stand by itself.

 

 

[jakee 1,254]

32 minutes ago, beowulf said:

I wrote that as apology for what I wrote originally. Not as a rebuttal as you seem to assume.

I hit reply before you edited your post. So I’m not assuming you wrote it as a rebuttal, I know you did. How the hell did you just end up being dishonest about your own apology?

32 minutes ago, beowulf said:

So you don't think Critical Social Justice views would consider Donald Trump or Trump supporters "to be utterly morally reprehensible. They are racists. They are misogynists. They hate trans people and want to deny their very existence. They are bigots. They are fascists. They are “literal” Nazis."

Donald Trump is a racist because Donald Trump is a racist, not because he was a rich man and the President. Donald Trump is a misogynist because Donald Trump is a mysogynist (he’s literally a legally defined violent sex offender), not because he was a rich man and the President. Some Trump supporters hate trans people, because you know they do - they’re not shy about it. Some Trump supporters are fascists and Nazis because just listen to the Proud boys.
 

Not all of them are though, and I’ve never heard anyone say that.

32 minutes ago, beowulf said:

In his paragraph he expanded that to "people who occupy positions of systemic power and privilege and yet who refuse to acknowledge and work to dismantle them"

Yes, and that’s the bit that’s ridiculously stupid. Trump is Trump. He’s not anyone else. So why did you make such a stupid argument?

Edited May 10, 2023 by jakee