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funjumper101

What is woke

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Just now, beowulf said:

I read enough to know it's bullshit. I don't have a doctoral degree in CRT. The logic is at times circular.

Critical race theory (CRT) is a scholarly and political approach to examining race that leads to a consequential analysis and profound understanding of racism. It argues, as a starting point, that the axis of American social life is fundamentally constructed in race. As a result, the economic, political, and historical relationships and arrangements that social actors have to institutions and social processes are all race based.

 

I bolded the part that is pure bullshit and it's racist to view everything in terms of race. 

Got a source for that?

How is the bolded part "pure bullshit"?

That is the core of CRT.

The 'built in racism' is something that is both true and well hidden.

It's not racist to recognize how pervasive and embedded the racism in our society is.

It's 'woke'. ;P

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13 hours ago, wmw999 said:

That’s a definition from the outside to mock, kind of like calling a Christian an adherent to a sect that practices ritual cannibalism. It doesn’t seek to understand or explain, and says more about the person providing the definition than about what they’re trying to describe

Wendy P. 

Like any religion Woke is a disease of denial, mental malware that exploits a fundamental vulnerability.

Poe's law applies nicely.

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10 minutes ago, beowulf said:

I bolded the part that is pure bullshit and it's racist to view everything in terms of race. 

It’s racist to say it’s racist to talk about racism.

A key CRT concept is intersectionality—the way in which different forms of inequality and identity are affected by interconnections of race, class, gender, and disability.

See above about CRT. It doesn’t say everything is race based, but it acknowledges how much is affected by race. You could take one single racist legal disparity like the difference in mandatory sentences between crack and powder cocaine, follow all of the effects downstream from that and end up with something that touches half of society. And it’s not racist to study that, it’s racist to say you shouldn’t.

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29 minutes ago, jakee said:

Isn’t that explicitly the point?


Anyway, in which bit does she disagree with MLK?

One of her major points is that all white people are racist and essentially need to atone for this.

 

That absolutely insane and contradicts judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

If want to read a book that calls a whole group of people based on their skin color racist then that's the book for you.

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13 minutes ago, beowulf said:

One of her major points is that all white people are racist and essentially need to atone for this.

Is it really though? When does she say this?

13 minutes ago, beowulf said:

That absolutely insane and contradicts judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

Well it might do if it was true, buuuuut…

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I think as long as you live in a capitalist economy there will be those who feel marginalized.  In order for there to be winners someone must lose.

We're bombarded daily with images of "the good life".  If you aren't part of that it must be someone else's fault.

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1 hour ago, airdvr said:

I think as long as you live in a capitalist economy there will be those who feel marginalized.  In order for there to be winners someone must lose.

We're bombarded daily with images of "the good life".  If you aren't part of that it must be someone else's fault.

When it is INTENTIONAL is when it's someone else's fault.

America has plenty of intentional racism. Might even refer to it as institutional or systemic, because that's what American history shows, even now.

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1 hour ago, jakee said:

Is it really though? When does she say this?

Well it might do if it was true, buuuuut…

The whole concept of "White Privilege" is an example of judging people by the color of their skin. Not only is it racist but it's also false. There is no such thing as a privilege that is granted based on skin color. I come from a multi cultural background. My father was not born in the US. I am light skinned and my father is dark skinned. I enjoy no privilege that my father does not, he lives here in the US. I have lived in another country and can tell you that the US is far less racist. The US is probably the least racist country on Earth.

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2 minutes ago, beowulf said:

The whole concept of "White Privilege" is an example of judging people by the color of their skin. Not only is it racist but it's also false. There is no such thing as a privilege that is granted based on skin color. I come from a multi cultural background. My father was not born in the US. I am light skinned and my father is dark skinned. I enjoy no privilege that my father does not, he lives here in the US. I have lived in another country and can tell you that the US is far less racist. The US is probably the least racist country on Earth.

Bullshit.

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7 minutes ago, beowulf said:

The whole concept of "White Privilege" is an example of judging people by the color of their skin. Not only is it racist but it's also false. There is no such thing as a privilege that is granted based on skin color. I come from a multi cultural background. My father was not born in the US. I am light skinned and my father is dark skinned. I enjoy no privilege that my father does not, he lives here in the US. I have lived in another country and can tell you that the US is far less racist. The US is probably the least racist country on Earth.

Interesting. My cousin's Palestinian husband has been profiled repeatedly in the last 20+ years (especially for awhile after 9/11). He has been a citizen since the 1960's I believe, but just had to quit flying for a few years because it wasn't worth the hassle.

Profiling is institutional racism; not being able to buy in certain neighborhoods is institutional racism (and while it's illegal now, just ask Ron how they they treat people who "don't fit in" a little differently -- now imagine that his community was all-white instead of all-Christian).

So yes, I call bullshit, too. The fact that white families don't really need to give their boys "the talk" is a pretty good indication that there are differences in how people are treated based on the color of their skin. The fact that people of color documentably get less for comparable houses, and don't get interviews as often for jobs, is a pretty good indication that there are differences in how people are treated based on the color of their skin.

Just as people are treated differently based on their gender. It's not by every.single.person, but it's enough that after awhile you wonder if it's because it's you specifically, or (in my case) because I'm a woman. The interruptions, the "dears," the ignoring in a technical setting. The alternative to being ignored or interrupted in a technical setting is to be a bitch. Do guys have to make that choice?

Again, not every single time -- but enough that it's noticeable that it's different.

Wendy P.

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27 minutes ago, beowulf said:

The whole concept of "White Privilege" is an example of judging people by the color of their skin.

Well there’s your mistake. The concept of white privilege is an acknowledgement of the ways society as a whole judges people by the colour of their skin.

 

30 minutes ago, beowulf said:

The US is probably the least racist country on Earth.

Woah there buddy! Surely it’s racist to talk about a society being racist? I can’t remember who just told me that, but I think he was named after a character in old English mythology.

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3 hours ago, beowulf said:

The part that the hard core woke line Robin DiAngelo would disagree with MLK is on judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

I have not read her book.  But from her other articles I suspect she would say that MLK was 100% right - and that systemic racism tends to keep that from happening in the United States.  And that that is something we should fix.  To fix it we have to examine the origins of racism.

One of the things she points out is that many white people, when asked about racism, immediately say "I don't see race!  It doesn't affect me!  Therefore I am simply not racist, and anything you say about it is an attack on me that will make me angry."  And that approach is flawed, since we DO see race and it affects us.  Everyone - from the most angry white supremacist to the most progressive liberal - experiences homophily, which is a tendency to accept people who look and talk like us more readily than someone who does not.  It's party of our evolutionary baggage, and once served a very useful function in early (small) societies.

But today it leads to racism.

It's easy to overcome if you want to.  But to overcome it, you have to recognize that you are experiencing it and work to counter it.

To use me as an example, I have a pretty negative initial reaction to Indian guys who wear a lot of jewelry and perfume, because that's very different from what I've experienced in my life.  I saw a lot of that when I was interviewing at my former company, since we interviewed a lot of Indian people.  I had to recognize that in myself and work to counter it to make sure I could give fair interviews.

If I had said "Nope!  I don't see any of that!  I am 100% unaffected by anything like appearance or smell" I would 1) be lying to myself and 2) would not be a very good interviewer.

Quote

makes me think you are pretty well indoctrinated into the cult.

Heck, I've been told I am in the science "cult," the evidence-based medicine "cult," the base jumping "cult" and the EV "cult."  One guy on the Internet even said I was in the round-earth "cult."  It's a go-to attack for some people.  If you want to say I am in a cult for being alert to injustice in society, I'll just add that to the list.

But consider that if you have to change the definitions of several words to try to make your point, you've pretty much conceded the argument.

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35 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

ISo yes, I call bullshit, too. The fact that white families don't really need to give their boys "the talk" is a pretty good indication that there are differences in how people are treated based on the color of their skin. The fact that people of color documentably get less for comparable houses, and don't get interviews as often for jobs, is a pretty good indication that there are differences in how people are treated based on the color of their skin.

Yep.  A common comeback to that is that "black people are just using that as an excuse for their own failures!  If you act like a criminal, people will treat you like a criminal."

Perhaps the ultimate example that proves that wrong comes from Neil Degrasse Tyson.  He was at a national physics society meeting speaking on astrophysics.  Afterwards he got to talking with his black colleagues and he mentioned how often he was pulled over.  Once he was pulled over because the cop saw that he had new license plates on his old car and wanted to make sure it wasn't stolen - something that almost certainly wouldn't have happened if he'd been white.  His other colleagues had similar stories.  He also recounted a story where he was hassled several times by campus police for bringing boxes of books INTO a school academic building - specifically into his office.  Again, the officer assumed he had stolen the books.  However, he was never stopped when he was going into the gym.

And, of course, it is very, very hard to claim that a bunch of physics PhD's were "acting criminal" in a way that needed to be checked out by police.  Of course, some people try.  Generally they are the same people who say "I don't see race!"

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4 hours ago, beowulf said:

Yeah, that's me.

I haven't been on this forum in a long time. It's funny how people can read different things into the same words. I don't recall saying it was impossible to define. Especially since I submitted a definition. What I did say is what the Woke consider acceptable is constantly changing. I think that is due to online social media.

Are you Canadian Roger?

 

 

Yeah Canadian Roger, it's been a while man!  I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I was referencing when you said:

Quote

 if you were to talk to those who consider themselves Woke today, you would get a lot of different definitions, many probably wouldn't even be able to define it.

so yeah, you didn't quite say 'impossible to define'.  

I gotta say that like most others on here, I pretty strongly disagree with your points on wokeness and racism in America.  It comes across as the same BS of 'my life hasn't been a nonstop cavalcade of blowjobs and free money, so white privilege doesn't exist'.  As a straight, white male I've still got plenty of challenges, but there are some people who have more.  I'd say the generally accepted definition of 'woke' is being able to admit that.  

I've lived in several different countries as well, having had residences in Canada, US, Venezuela and Mexico, as well as spending significant chunks of time in several others.  To say the US is the least racist country almost had me choking on my Timbits!  Not to say that there aren't problems elsewhere, but I've not seen some of the brazen BS that I see in Texas and southern Louisianna oilfield shops anywhere else.  YMMV

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54 minutes ago, lippy said:

I gotta say that like most others on here, I pretty strongly disagree with your points on wokeness and racism in America.  It comes across as the same BS of 'my life hasn't been a nonstop cavalcade of blowjobs and free money, so white privilege doesn't exist'.  As a straight, white male I've still got plenty of challenges, but there are some people who have more. 

A good writeup on this comes from John Scalzi of "Old Man's War" fame:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

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2 hours ago, beowulf said:

... There is no such thing as a privilege that is granted based on skin color...

Ummm....

Bullshit.

Look at average income by race.

Look at home ownership by race.

Look at lifespan by race (or a LOT of other measures of health & health care).

Look at incarceration by race.

I know a lot of 'old white guys' who claim, like you, that 'there's no such thing as white privilege', that 'they had to work for everything they have'.
While I won't dispute that they worked, and worked hard, to earn what they have, they blatantly ignore the reality that people with different skin colors have to work a LOT harder to attain the same successes, and for some, no matter how hard they work, those successes are out of reach.

That basic premise is the genesis of CRT.

People saw the different levels of success for different races. 
They saw things like the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, all of the anti-discrimination laws on the books and asked why discrimination is still so prevalent.

So they looked. Long, hard and deep.

And found that racism has basically been 'built in' to much of our society. 
It's not always easy to spot. It's not 'white only' signs on bathrooms, water fountains or anything else.

But it's very real.

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6 hours ago, beowulf said:

There is no such thing as a privilege that is granted based on skin color.

Oh wow. It takes some serious head in the sand thinking to genuinely believe this. Read the john scalzi link that billvon posted. I don't hold much hope of anything penetrating but you never know.

6 hours ago, beowulf said:

The US is probably the least racist country on Earth.

That's not the most wrong thing I have read on the internet today, but it's up there.

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I think there are a number of ways to be "racist".  The most obvious of course is to overtly make and act on negative assumptions about people based on their pigmentation, hair texture, eye folds etc.  I'm sure such people still exist, but they are probably diminishing or at least getting better about "passing" as not racist.

Another way is to support policies and practices that have an adverse impact on other people in a way that correlates with race.  For example, almost all school districts in the US are supported by local school taxes, which depend on local property values.  Wealth, including property values, has become a great proxy for race, which I commented on the the parallel thread "What is Anti-Woke".  For example redlining confined home ownership for non-whites to neighborhoods with low property values.  The practice was outlawed only in 1968, but it continued unofficially for years, and formerly redlined neighborhoods are still to this day marked by disproportionately low property values and high minority ownership.  Because school taxes are tied to property values, schools in most areas with high minority (especially black) populations are very limited in their resources, compared to schools in primarily white neighborhoods.  Low resources means crappy science labs, larger class sizes, fewer electives, etc.

How could this be corrected?  Perhaps school taxes could be collected by the state and shared equally across school districts, so each district gets the same amount of money per student?  What do you think happens whenever something of the sort is proposed?  Richer property owners get up in arms, outraged that their tax dollars would go to kids in other school districts.  So, even though they would not say racist things to your face, they strongly support a school system that directs more resources to their own race.

Same thing with trying to limit political rights.  They don't have to say the racist part out loud, but making it harder for people in large cities to vote compared to rural people gets the job done.  At least they don't burn crosses any more.

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9 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Perhaps school taxes could be collected by the state and shared equally across school districts, so each district gets the same amount of money per student? 

You can look up "Robin Hood" in Texas' SB57 in the mid-90's. It was a last gasp attempt to provide at least some equity across school districts in Texas per repeated judgments and court orders to improve the situation. It's still unpopular, and rich districts still have much better bake sales, but after the residents of the state rejected any other sort of plan, something had to happen.

Wendy P.

(former Texan, with a kid in school those years)

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17 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

I think there are a number of ways to be "racist".  The most obvious of course is to overtly make and act on negative assumptions about people based on their pigmentation, hair texture, eye folds etc.  I'm sure such people still exist, but they are probably diminishing or at least getting better about "passing" as not racist...

...Same thing with trying to limit political rights.  They don't have to say the racist part out loud, but making it harder for people in large cities to vote compared to rural people gets the job done.  At least they don't burn crosses any more.

The idea that they were hiding their racism was true until Obama was elected.

Since then, those types have crawled out from under their rocks and become much more visible.

Trump's success was pretty much founded on it.

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9 hours ago, winsor said:

Like any religion Woke is a disease of denial, mental malware that exploits a fundamental vulnerability.

Poe's law applies nicely.

Okay, woke is a belief system. If that’s your starting point, I’m good with that definition. But doesn’t going straight at a definition risk missing certain critical points? Here, wokists are mostly arguing that the playing fields are unequal. That’s probably something you’d agree with, I’m guessing. Wokists, it seems to me, are simply saying the game was forced and thus unfair so let’s take a closer look at that. Anti-wokists it seems are saying that where we are is simply a function of the natural order and only the natural order should make changes. Straight up: is that your position?

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