Failing its most fundamental job

[jakee 981]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

My issue is - Who can lead us to a confident course correction and is America willing to sacrifice to achieve it. I fear our collapse whilst people have their faces buried in their phones watching TikTok videos. While our country was found on individual rights, we always had a sense of the greater good, not the I/me. 

Eh?

Tying phone use into anything else is just lazy and incorrect stereotyping along the lines of people who don’t think a single millennial knows how to hold down a job.

 

The younger generation (most likely to have their noses buried in TikTok) now has a stronger social conscience than at any time in the past. Awareness of racial injustice among people who aren’t minorities has skyrocketed in recent years. The US has only just instituted its real attempt at universal healthcare. 
 

But you think that now you’re losing a sense of the greater good because young people aren’t paying attention? Absurd.

[Phil1111 691]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

... Who can lead us to a confident course correction and is America willing to sacrifice to achieve it. I fear our collapse whilst people have their faces buried in their phones watching TikTok videos. While our country was found on individual rights, we always had a sense of the greater good, not the I/me. ...

A fairly common idea. But take heart.

22 minutes ago, jakee said:

...The younger generation (most likely to have their noses buried in TikTok) now has a stronger social conscience than at any time in the past. Awareness of racial injustice among people who aren’t minorities has skyrocketed in recent years. The US has only just instituted its real attempt at universal healthcare. ....

Seems to be borne out by the facts. But perhaps not in a way the the White, GOP, conservative right wants. With no offense to BIGUN. I personally think you're doing your part.

"By a margin of nearly three-to-one, we found that youth agreed with the sentiment, “Americans with different political views from me still want what’s best for the country” -- in total, 50% agreed, 18% disagreed, and 31% were recorded as neutral. In a hopeful sign, no significant difference was recorded between Democrats (53% agree, 18% disagree) and Republicans (52% agree, 20% disagree)....

and now trump and populism is in decline. So there is hope for an American revival. It may not be White ethnocentric ideal. But hey America has always been in transition of some sort.

I just think it will take some time.

[JoeWeber 1,866]

7 hours ago, kallend said:

So your position is that the USA's declining life expectancy, the worst infant mortality of any western nation, the worst maternal mortality of any western nation, the worst murder rate of any western nation, the most expensive health care "system" of any western nation, and a gerrymandered political system is of little or no relevance.  The USA's only purpose is to exist.

So why bother?

We’re talking past each other. When I think “Nation” I’m not including the inner workings that may or may not benefit its inhabitants who may or may not have an official agency like citizenship. As it turns out, the more inhabitants there are the greater the need for a hierarchy there is, hence the gifting of agency and benefits. Nations throughout history haven’t necessarily treated all of their inhabitants with the utmost courtesy as a requirement for continued existence or expansion of their territories. The Great Khans, the Roman Emperors, and Borg One of One must all have had notional difference’s with we moderns on the concept of a nation.

[JerryBaumchen 874]

23 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

In a word:  Intolerance

There are simply too many people ( though not a majority, thankfully ) in this country that are not tolerant of anyone who is exactly like them.

It is a big issue; and, one word is not going to define it.  But, it is a place to begin a conversation.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi folks,

A little more on this tolerance concept:  Most Oregonians support protections for transgender people, poll says, but divisions remain - oregonlive.com

Jerry Baumchen

[SkyDekker 901]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:48 PM, kallend said:

OK, but why is the USA particularly troubled by these issues?

Citizens United.

[SkyDekker 901]

23 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

BillVon was spot on: preservation of the integrity of the nation is job one,

What good is a nation when the people in it don't live past 12 years old?

[JerryBaumchen 874]

On 5/3/2023 at 4:21 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

In a word:  Intolerance

There are simply too many people ( though not a majority, thankfully ) in this country that are not tolerant of anyone who is exactly like them.

It is a big issue; and, one word is not going to define it.  But, it is a place to begin a conversation.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi folks,

Just noticed this; it should read:  of anyone who is not exactly like them.

My bad,

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 1,866]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

What good is a nation when the people in it don't live past 12 years old?

Phrase it: what is the national good when a nations citizens don’t live past 12 years old and the picture develops. Nations, these days, are lines on maps; good or bad or how the inhabitants confined within those lines are treated are different ideas. I might move from one nations borders to another’s for a better life’s experience, and like you I have that right and preference, but the fact of any other nations existence isn’t really relevant.

[billvon 1,945]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

What good is a nation when the people in it don't live past 12 years old?

Most people here live past 12 years old, of course.

And in any case, there are some distinctions worth mentioning here.

One is the government.  It has (as I mentioned) the primary jobs of defending borders, establishing a rule of law, having a justice system etc.

Another is the healthcare system.  You can have a great one or a terrible one independent of the government.  Right now we don't have a great one.  There are a dozen reasons for that, and that would be a great discussion for another thread, but that's not the role of the government.  The government absolutely has a secondary role in setting up systems that ALLOW good healthcare to be provided, but that's not a primary function, nor is providing health care a function at all that the government should perform directly.

A third is the economy.  Again, largely independent of the government, outside regulations and laws designed to prevent fraud, theft, misuse of the system (monopolies etc) and foreign interference.

Yet another one is the character of the people themselves.  Is it a place people want to live?  Is it safe to walk down the street?  Can people succeed if they work at it?  Do they get the support they need?  All those things again can be influenced by the government, but are not functions of the government.

All different functions.  Most have little to do with the government.

Going back to the original post in this thread: "Surely the most fundamental job of a nation is to look after the well being of its people."  Which is like saying "surely the most fundamental job of a drop zone is to look after the well being of the people there."  And by far the easiest way to do that is to stop them from skydiving.  Skydiving is dangerous and often kills more than a dozen people per year - all of which is 100% preventable by stopping skydiving.

The reason that they DZ's continue to provide skydiving is that the primary purpose of a drop zone is to sell airplane rides to skydivers so they can skydive.  Sure, safety (having S+TA's and USPA rated instructors and Safety Day and all that) is part of that.  And another part is educationg students.  And another part (often) is supporting competiton, even stunt work.  But none of that is their fundamental job, any more than the fundamental job of a nation is to give people healthcare.

[jakee 981]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

One is the government.  It has (as I mentioned) the primary jobs of defending borders, establishing a rule of law, having a justice system etc.

Why is having a justice system something the government must provide directly? You appear to think the private sector can do everything else, why not this?

2 hours ago, billvon said:

nor is providing health care a function at all that the government should perform directly.

You say this like it’s a logical fact when it is nothing but your own opinion.

[kallend 1,345]

5 hours ago, billvon said:

 

Another is the healthcare system.  You can have a great one or a terrible one independent of the government.  Right now we don't have a great one.  There are a dozen reasons for that, and that would be a great discussion for another thread, but that's not the role of the government.  The government absolutely has a secondary role in setting up systems that ALLOW good healthcare to be provided, but that's not a primary function, nor is providing health care a function at all that the government should perform directly.

 

Every other wealthy nation seems to disagree with you.  And they all have better health outcomes.

 

I disagree with you too.  What is the point of defending borders but not looking after the people within them. 

[BIGUN 1,000]

“While boasting of our noble deeds we're careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have
nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery.”

~ Horace Greeley

Edited May 5 by BIGUN

[JoeWeber 1,866]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

Every other wealthy nation seems to disagree with you.  And they all have better health outcomes.

 

I disagree with you too.  What is the point of defending borders but not looking after the people within them. 

You don’t need to care about your nations inhabitants unless you require them for selfish reasons. 

Edited May 5 by JoeWeber

[Phil1111 691]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You don’t need to care about your nations inhabitants unless you require them for selfish reasons. 

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."

Famous quotes about the purpose of governments and the state. Studied and defined since the times of Plato.

I'm surprised that you would quote from the communist manifesto of good governance for the party!

[JoeWeber 1,866]

23 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."

Famous quotes about the purpose of governments and the state. Studied and defined since the times of Plato.

I'm surprised that you would quote from the communist manifesto of good governance for the party!

And right you are! I guess where I’m all discombobulated is this irksome notion I have that any form of government follows the creation of a nation. First you plant the flag, then you make the rules, seems to me.

Edited May 5 by JoeWeber
Fat thumb syndrome

[Phil1111 691]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And right I am! I guess where I’m right on the numbers that any form of government follows the creation of a nation. First you plant the flag, then you mark the rules, seems to me.

FIFY Hence the notion that people get the government they deserve. Hence you and John are both right. Washington is akin to a track star that stumbled in the hurdles. Will she get back on her feet and win the race. Or get back on her feet and still post a good time to unanimous applause.

In France the streets are ablaze with protestors venting at the state. In England flags, pomp and ceremony to celebrate its "King". Be thankful that you don't have to be part of either. Because they both have governments they deserve.

[CygnusX-1 36]

I would argue that the fundamental job of the government is to tax it's citizens. That is what separates it from an individual or corporation. An individual or corporation has to supply a service in order to take your money. The government can take your money without supplying a service.

Now of course the government is SUPPOSED to take that money and provide a service like protecting corporations from undue competition or lawsuits. Maybe even start wars with other nations in order to line the pockets of its lobbyists or anyone who give campaign contributions.

[billvon 1,945]

11 hours ago, jakee said:

Why is having a justice system something the government must provide directly?

Because a justice system necessarily involves removing rights from people - through fines or imprisonment or (occasionally) death.  That's not a role we should delegate to Wal-Mart, since protecting those very same rights is also the role of government.

Quote

You say this like it’s a logical fact when it is nothing but your own opinion.

As I am sure you are aware, almost everything posted here is opinion.

[billvon 1,945]

8 hours ago, kallend said:

I disagree with you too.  What is the point of defending borders but not looking after the people within them. 

We do look after the people within our borders - through our justice system, the medicare system, the national parks system, VA hospitals, sewers, roads, EMS services etc etc.  However, out of that list, the only thing that is a fundamental role of government is the justice system.

And as I have said four times now, we can do a better job in many of those areas.  I am not arguing that we should not overhaul our healthcare system.  Indeed, I often argue that we should, and I've listed several ways that can happen.

What I am arguing is that providing healthcare is not the most fundamental role of government.

[jakee 981]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

Because a justice system necessarily involves removing rights from people - through fines or imprisonment or (occasionally) death.  That's not a role we should delegate to Wal-Mart, since protecting those very same rights is also the role of government.

Health care very often involves death (either failing to prevent it or actively causing it) as well as making huge life decisions for people not in a position to make them. But you trust that to Walmart. 

The government also provides rules on how healthcare systems have to work, just like they provide rules on how all kinds of other things have to work, then trust Walmart to deliver it.

So why can’t Walmart provide a justice system under the rules laid out by the government?
 

8 minutes ago, billvon said:

As I am sure you are aware, almost everything posted here is opinion.

Then as I’m sure you are aware, the government should be in the business of providing healthcare.

[billvon 1,945]

33 minutes ago, jakee said:

Health care very often involves death (either failing to prevent it or actively causing it)

Absolutely.  So does skydiving.  Both, of course, try to PREVENT death.  Justice systems ADMINISTER death.  A bit of a difference there,

Quote

as well as making huge life decisions for people not in a position to make them. But you trust that to Walmart.

No, I don't.

Quote

The government also provides rules on how healthcare systems have to work, just like they provide rules on how all kinds of other things have to work, then trust Walmart to deliver it.

No, see, that's the thing.  The government currently trusts people to decide who they want for healthcare, via choosing doctors directly, or through choosing a plan they like.  I wouldn't support a system where you were assigned a government doctor, or where the government made such decisions.

What I _would_ support is an official two-tier system where everyone is automatically covered up to a certain level of care by an expanded Medicare program, then beyond that rely on private healthcare.

But again, that's a whole 'nuther discussion

[jakee 981]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

No, I don't.

Of course you do. If private justice comes from Walmart then private medicine comes from Walmart too. 
 

1 hour ago, billvon said:

I wouldn't support a system where you were assigned a government doctor,

Does government healthcare necessitate being assigned a doctor?

[billvon 1,945]

Just now, jakee said:

Of course you do. If private justice comes from Walmart then private medicine comes from Walmart too. 

Right.  And I don't want either one choosing.

Quote

Does government healthcare necessitate being assigned a doctor?

If the most fundamental job for a government is providing healthcare - absolutely.  You wouldn't trust your most fundamental job to some outsider.  I mean, Wal-Mart might well outsource its janitorial services, its shipping, even its security.  Those are not central to Wal-Mart; the most fundamental job of Wal-Mart is to sell people stuff.  If they outsourced that selling of stuff to Target, they would no longer be a retailer, and would have changed the fundamentals of their company.

So if the most fundamental job of government is providing healthcare, then yes, government controls and provides that.  But if healthcare is, instead, an auxiliary function - like, say, roads or science funding (or janitorial services for Wal-Mart) - then it would make a lot of sense to outsource that.  You could have a completely independent system, and just have laws that provide funding for people who can't pay that system.  You could have a single payer system where the outside system is independent, you just pay for all of it and do things like set limits.  You could have a system where the government employs all the doctors but you can choose which one you get.  There are a huge number of options.

[kallend 1,345]

Spin it any way you want; compared with other wealthy nations the USA is failing to keep its people healthy and protect its children from harm. 

[JoeWeber 1,866]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

Spin it any way you want; compared with other wealthy nations the USA is failing to keep its people healthy and protect its children from harm. 

Sure, no disagreement there, but that still doesn’t mean that you grasped the point.

Edited May 6 by JoeWeber