Failing its most fundamental job

[kallend 1,345]

When I came to the USA in 1977 it was undoubtedly the leading nation in just about every category I can think of,  Even throwing off its racist past with the civil rights acts.

Now in the interests of corporate profit we have exported jobs and technology primarily to Asia.

And surely the most fundamental job of a nation is to look after the well being of its people.  The USA has declining life expectancy, the worst infant mortality of any western nation, the worst maternal mortality of any western nation, the worst murder rate of any western nation, the most expensive health care "system" of any western nation, and a gerrymandered political system that enables a minority party to stymie any attemps to correct the above problems.

 

Edited May 3 by kallend

[JerryBaumchen 874]

6 minutes ago, kallend said:

When I came to the USA in 1977 it was undoubtedly the leading nation in just about every category I can think of,  Even throwing off its racist past with the civil rights acts.

Now in the interests of corporate profit we have exported jobs and technology primarily to Asia.

And surely the most fundamental job of a nation s to look after the well being of its people.  The USA has declining life expectancy, the worst infant mortality of any western nation, the worst maternal mortality of any western nation, the worst murder rate of any western nation, the most expensive health care "system" of any western nation, and a gerrymandered political system that enables a minority party to stymie any attemps to correct the above problems.

 

Hi John,

I also, have thought that maybe the American Century is slowing coming to an end.

I truly wish it was not so.

Jerry Baumchen

[airdvr 184]

Saw this earlier today.  From Carl Sagan in 1995.

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

[gowlerk 1,610]

27 minutes ago, kallend said:

And surely the most fundamental job of a nation is to look after the well being of its people. 

Something about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness comes to mind.

[normiss 422]

9 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Something about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness comes to mind.

That and equal protection of the law.

[kallend 1,345]

12 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Saw this earlier today.  From Carl Sagan in 1995.

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

OK, but why is the USA particularly troubled by these issues?  Other western nations don't seem to be sufering from declining life expectancy, high murder rates, etc?  American exceptionalism, but in the wrong direction?

[JerryBaumchen 874]

30 minutes ago, kallend said:

OK, but why is the USA particularly troubled by these issues?  Other western nations don't seem to be sufering from declining life expectancy, high murder rates, etc?  American exceptionalism, but in the wrong direction?

Hi John,

In a word:  Intolerance

There are simply too many people ( though not a majority, thankfully ) in this country that are not tolerant of anyone who is exactly like them.

It is a big issue; and, one word is not going to define it.  But, it is a place to begin a conversation.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 1,945]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

And surely the most fundamental job of a nation is to look after the well being of its people. 

I don't think that's true.

I mean, the most fundamental job of a nursing home, or even most hospitals, is to look after the well being of the people it is charged to care for.

But a nation?  The fundamental job of most nations is preserving their borders and allowing its inhabitants a degree of autonomy to pursue their interests and vocations.  That's implemented via laws, a military, a government etc.  Running a health care system might be PART of that, just as part of it might be running the roads, and just as part of it might be a space program because we think that's important.  But those are secondary to a nation's purpose; not the most fundamental job.

[gowlerk 1,610]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

But a nation?  The fundamental job of most nations is preserving their borders and allowing its inhabitants a degree of autonomy to pursue their interests and vocations.

Isn't that the same thing? It could be argued that a nation is just a modern and more formal tribe. It could also be argued that looking after the best interests of the rulers is the fundamental job. Ask a Russian. 

[JerryBaumchen 874]

34 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Isn't that the same thing? It could be argued that a nation is just a modern and more formal tribe. It could also be argued that looking after the best interests of the rulers is the fundamental job. Ask a Russian. 

Hi Ken,

I am of the opinion that this country was founded upon the rights of the individual.  Not anything else.

IMO the courts have pushed this definition too far.  We now have a country in which one is virtually never responsible for what they do.

The dipstick who killed Harvey Milk ( because Harvey was different ) tried to blame it on Twinkees.

Spare me,

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 1,866]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Isn't that the same thing? It could be argued that a nation is just a modern and more formal tribe. It could also be argued that looking after the best interests of the rulers is the fundamental job. Ask a Russian. 

No, it’s not the same thing. You didn’t say anything useful; you just tossed out a straw man and then supported it with a ridiculous proposition, to wit, that a nations best interest is looking after its rulers yada, yada, yada. No need to seek counsel from a Russian this time. BillVon was spot on: preservation of the integrity of the nation is job one, what goes on otherwise is job two at best.

Edited May 4 by JoeWeber

[Phil1111 691]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

...Now in the interests of corporate profit we have exported jobs and technology primarily to Asia.

Trade is in the best interests of America. Low wage jobs making t-shirts, crappy furniture, etc. is best left to low wage countries. The US currently has full employment by most economists definitions. The new plan to bring back semi-conductor mfg.. to the US is a good start. There is nothing wrong with corporate profits as long as they are not monopolistic.

3 hours ago, kallend said:

...And surely the most fundamental job of a nation is to look after the well being of its people.  ...

Agree, together with defense, justice, health and welfare of all.

3 hours ago, kallend said:

.... The USA has declining life expectancy, the worst infant mortality of any western nation, the worst maternal mortality of any western nation, the worst murder rate of any western nation, the most expensive health care "system" of any western nation, and a gerrymandered political system that enables a minority party to stymie any attemps to correct the above problems.

This is the essence of the issues. Unfortunately a national dialogue doesn't seem to be on the horizon to address these issues.

But! the US has a dynamic and flexible labor markets.The most dynamic and flexible capital markets. Robust software and engineering sectors.

Hopefully the worst of trumpism is over. Immigration is keeping the US young. If not White. Xi and China will be no competition for the US because communist leadership has never been successful. Let alone a dictatorship of communism. The mechanisms for correcting the worst issues is in place. It just takes a couple leaders.

Politics functions like a pendulum. It will swing back to the center..

[gowlerk 1,610]

24 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You didn’t say anything useful;

Did you? You are becoming tiresome now, but I'm guessing that is your goal.

Edited May 4 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 1,866]

9 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Did you? Yop are becoming tiresome now, but I'm guessing that is your goal.

I did. I refuted your pointless statement and bolstered BillVons points with a little bit of simplicity. I guess I could have talked about my feelings, too, but that’s just not me.

[gowlerk 1,610]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

. I guess I could have talked about my feelings, too, but that’s just not me.

Go ahead. No one will attack you or belittle you. Your feelings are important.

[gowlerk 1,610]

16 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I refuted your pointless statement

The point of the statement is that it is difficult to define a purpose of a nation state. They form by accidents of history and geography and they are extremely varied in longevity. They can be homogeneous in cultural makeup but often are not. Kallend's OP stating that caring for the welfare of it's people is fundamental is as good as any other purpose. My posistion is that they have no real purpose other than to protect and hoard resources.

[JoeWeber 1,866]

14 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The point of the statement is that it is difficult to define a purpose of a nation state. They form by accidents of history and geography and they are extremely varied in longevity. They can be homogeneous in cultural makeup but often are not. Kallend's OP stating that caring for the welfare of it's people is fundamental is as good as any other purpose. My posistion is that they have no real purpose other than to protect and hoard resources.

Nope. Nation States are formed to exist. All of the rest is just icing on the cake or turds in the punch bowl.

[kallend 1,345]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Nope. Nation States are formed to exist. All of the rest is just icing on the cake or turds in the punch bowl.

So your position is that the USA's declining life expectancy, the worst infant mortality of any western nation, the worst maternal mortality of any western nation, the worst murder rate of any western nation, the most expensive health care "system" of any western nation, and a gerrymandered political system is of little or no relevance.  The USA's only purpose is to exist.

So why bother?

[Slim King 39]

Reboot the Constitution!!!!!! I give away thousands a year. Kids in school have no idea how this country became so great and why it is failing now.

[BIGUN 1,000]

11 hours ago, kallend said:

And surely the most fundamental job of a nation is to look after the well being of its people.  The USA has declining life expectancy, the worst infant mortality of any western nation, the worst maternal mortality of any western nation, the worst murder rate of any western nation, the most expensive health care "system" of any western nation, and a gerrymandered political system that enables a minority party to stymie any attemps to correct the above problems.

None of what you say is incorrect. There are numerous articles on the American Decline and the parallels between the US and the Roman Empire.

My issue is - Who can lead us to a confident course correction and is America willing to sacrifice to achieve it. I fear our collapse whilst people have their faces buried in their phones watching TikTok videos. While our country was found on individual rights, we always had a sense of the greater good, not the I/me. 

I'm also concerned with your arriving and most articles using that year as a benchmark for the beginning of the decline. Coincidence?   

[jakee 981]

10 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Isn't that the same thing? It could be argued that a nation is just a modern and more formal tribe. It could also be argued that looking after the best interests of the rulers is the fundamental job. Ask a Russian. 

I suppose it depends on if we’re talking about the most fundamental job/s of any nation, vs the most fundamental job/s of a nation we want to live in. 
 

Which I kinda thought was implied, but maybe not.

[gowlerk 1,610]

11 minutes ago, jakee said:

I suppose it depends on if we’re talking about the most fundamental job/s of any nation, vs the most fundamental job/s of a nation we want to live in. 
 

Which I kinda thought was implied, but maybe not.

In that case the fundamental purpose would be defined by the people and subject to change with the circumstances. Works for me. That is why constitutions have amending formulae.

 

[Faicon9493 82]

10 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

I am of the opinion that this country was founded upon the rights of the individual.  Not anything else.

IMO the courts have pushed this definition too far.  We now have a country in which one is virtually never responsible for what they do.

The dipstick who killed Harvey Milk ( because Harvey was different ) tried to blame it on Twinkees.

Spare me,

Jerry Baumchen

Correction: Some individuals, not all individuals.

[gowlerk 1,610]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

My issue is - Who can lead us to a confident course correction and is America willing to sacrifice to achieve it.

At the risk of being attacked again as an unwanted outside commentator by Ameriphiles I will say that the USA has shown remarkable strength and cohesion through leadership only when faced with an existential threat. Currently the majority is already achieving enough to keep themselves reasonably satisfied. 

The op here really has two components. The shift away of manufacturing is not really correctable if we want to keep living the lifestyle that modern technology provides us with. The other thrust is the social ills caused by a large and growing underclass being left behind. My take on that is it is partly a hangover from racial tensions and partly a structural problem caused by a federal government that was deliberately created to be weak in areas related to social welfare. Social safety nets are expensive and not enough people are willing to pay for the healthcare of those who are living among the powerless because it is too easy to just call them undeserving. 

[wmw999 1,720]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I fear our collapse whilst people have their faces buried in their phones watching TikTok videos. While our country was found on individual rights, we always had a sense of the greater good, not the I/me. 

This, along with this

21 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

the USA has shown remarkable strength and cohesion through leadership only when faced with an existential threat. Currently the majority is already achieving enough to keep themselves reasonably satisfied.

Our prosperity may be our undoing. As long as a significant number of people feel as though they are better off alone than with the rest of the society, the society won’t be strengthened. And feeling as though you have a little more than enough is a good way to think that you don’t need the rest of the people.

Wendy P.