Dangerous Anniversary

[gowlerk 1,905]

15 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

So, pretty much you and Sky will stop attacking me for being Republican if I don't attack you for being Canadian and we stick to the issues, eh?

Well, I see it a little differently from you. I do attack Rs, if you feel I am attacking you I guess I should be more clear. My belief is that you feel under attack because your tribe is under attack by me. I never mean it personally. I sort of but not completely understand the conservative point of view.  The fiscal aspects of it make some sense, but it is hard to comprehend the culture wars. No two people are the same and left and right are totally inadequate shorthand for complex views. I often point out stuff like the subject at hand in an effort to make people see that there are at least two sides to every story. Most people just want to see one side. I suppose because it is so much easier. I believe you have a history as a warrior. I understand that in such an occupation it is better and almost necessary to believe in and 100% support your cause. My flag is often on the same hill as yours, but off to one side.

Edited April 10, 2023 by gowlerk

[kallend 1,623]

48 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

So, pretty much you and Sky will stop attacking me for being Republican if I don't attack you for being Canadian and we stick to the issues, eh?

While I don't have an issue with conservatism in general, I am truly surprised that any thinking person could support the GOP in 2023.

IMO the GOP took a decidedly nasty turn with Gingrich and has been on a downhill track since then, accelerating rapidly post 2016 with its embrace of anti-science, authoritarianism and the loony far right (MTG, for example). 

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

15 minutes ago, kallend said:

While I don't have an issue with conservatism in general, I am truly surprised that any thinking person could support the GOP in 2023.

IMO the GOP took a decidedly nasty turn with Gingrich and has been on a downhill track since then, accelerating rapidly post 2016 with its embrace of anti-science, authoritarianism and the loony far right (MTG, for example). 

Hi John,

This, a million times, this.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[JoeWeber 2,297]

Just now, gowlerk said:

This is an international forum and just like America you can love it or leave it.

But you don't find us, except when discussing Canadian failures to adhere to treaty obligations, dissing Canada except as a response to, well, mostly you.

Just now, gowlerk said:

I am not American, that does not mean I don't like America and it certainly doesn't mean I am not allowed to find fault in what is going on in America.

Your credibility would be much enhanced if occasionally you did actually point your finger at your own "pee-pee". Did I get that right?

Seriously, man, you make your living off the American economy and, by extension, our values. You could show a bit more moderation, I think.

Edited April 11, 2023 by JoeWeber

[BIGUN 1,051]

56 minutes ago, kallend said:

While I don't have an issue with conservatism in general, I am truly surprised that any thinking person could support the GOP in 2023.

They do make it hard at times. 

58 minutes ago, kallend said:

IMO the GOP took a decidedly nasty turn with Gingrich and has been on a downhill track since then, accelerating rapidly post 2016 with its embrace of anti-science, authoritarianism and the loony far right

I have referred to myself as a "Colin Powell" Conservative.

59 minutes ago, kallend said:

(MTG, for example).

No argument.  

[gowlerk 1,905]

14 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

But you don't find us, except when discussing Canadian failures to adhere to treaty obligations, dissing Canada except as a response to, well, mostly you.

I can live with that. Diss away. Most of the time I will not respond in line with my new policy of posting less and saying more. If it makes you feel better I will state that I find far more people and things to admire about America than not. Just as most of the Americans here are people I admire, a few I have added to my kill list. The fact is that most of what gets discussed here is current events in the US. Am I not supposed to comment because you feel your nation is being dissed? 

 

20 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Seriously, man, you make your living off the American economy and, by extension, our values. You could show a bit more moderation, I think.

No man is an island and neither is any nation. (well okay there are island nations) I don't even know how to grace this sentence with a coherent answer. Your values are all over the place. You feel cheated? By Canada? And you think I should show some restraint because you perceive me as living off of US crumbs? Again, I observe what I can and I comment on it in my own style. The irony of having an American ask me for moderation is somewhat amazing. America, land of outrageous boasting and flag waving. The land of extremes and excesses complaining about a lack of moderation. I don't think you really have a clue the amount of restraint I impose upon myself at times. Your nation is a wonderfully target rich environment. 

 

31 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Your credibility would be much enhanced if occasionally you did actually point your finger at your own "pee-pee". Did I get that right?

My cred with you seems to have disappeared with the season. PeePee is Pierre Poilievre. He is the new leader of the Conservative Party of Canada and stands at least a reasonable chance defeating the Liberals in the next election and taking my nation in a somewhat R like direction. He is a very clever say anything that will work with the base populist politician. But you probably don't know much about him so there is not much point bringing him up here. Maybe we could exchange some views on the Canadian Constitution Act, or our Supreme Court. 

[JoeWeber 2,297]

Just now, gowlerk said:

I can live with that. Diss away. Most of the time I will not respond in line with my new policy of posting less and saying more. If it makes you feel better I will state that I find far more people and things to admire about America than not. Just as most of the Americans here are people I admire, a few I have added to my kill list. The fact is that most of what gets discussed here is current events in the US. Am I not supposed to comment because you feel your nation is being dissed? 

 

No man is an island and neither is any nation. (well okay there are island nations) I don't even know how to grace this sentence with a coherent answer. Your values are all over the place. You feel cheated? By Canada? And you think I should show some restraint because you perceive me as living off of US crumbs? Again, I observe what I can and I comment on it in my own style. The irony of having an American ask me for moderation is somewhat amazing. America, land of outrageous boasting and flag waving. The land of extremes and excesses complaining about a lack of moderation. I don't think you really have a clue the amount of restraint I impose upon myself at times. Your nation is a wonderfully target rich environment. 

 

My cred with you seems to have disappeared with the season. PeePee is Pierre Poilievre. He is the new leader of the Conservative Party of Canada and stands at least a reasonable chance defeating the Liberals in the next election and taking my nation in a somewhat R like direction. He is a very clever say anything that will work with the base populist politician. But you probably don't know much about him so there is not much point bringing him up here. Maybe we could exchange some views on the Canadian Constitution Act, or our Supreme Court. 

What a delightful ramble. 

[gowlerk 1,905]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

What a delightful ramble. 

Thank you coach.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

Just now, gowlerk said:

Thank you coach.

You are welcome, grasshopper.

[RonD1120 58]

8 hours ago, gowlerk said:

 

Off the OT, but I have a question for you. What is going on at the border south of you that has attracted increased surveillance aircraft? It has dropped off the last couple of days but, for awhile we were really looking at the Winnipeg area.

[Stumpy 256]

11 hours ago, kallend said:

While I don't have an issue with conservatism in general, I am truly surprised that any thinking person could support the GOP in 2023

They can't. And therein lies the problem.

[gowlerk 1,905]

51 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

Off the OT, but I have a question for you. What is going on at the border south of you that has attracted increased surveillance aircraft? It has dropped off the last couple of days but, for awhile we were really looking at the Winnipeg area.

Most likely observation of snow pack for the coming spring flood. A lot of water is going to move through the Red River to Lake Winnipeg. The spring melt is late and therefore will happen quickly. This area is very prone to wide shallow flooding during spring. There were a series of large snowfalls late in the season that came one after another in the area of North Dakota and southern Manitoba.

[airdvr 197]

17 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

They could have just dropped a bomb on it and not a single Republican would have cared....

Why do Republicans care about protecting Branch Davidian's and don't care about bombing protestors in Philly?

I seem to remember it was a D in the oval office at the time.

[billvon 2,395]

41 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I seem to remember it was a D in the oval office at the time.

Exactly.  So in the calculus of the right:

Bill Clinton - enemy
Janet Reno - appointed by enemy; therefore enemy
Branch Dividians - enemy of enemy; therefore friend

Also part of the reason that several republicans are supporting Putin.

[airdvr 197]

23 minutes ago, billvon said:

Exactly.  So in the calculus of the right:

Bill Clinton - enemy
Janet Reno - appointed by enemy; therefore enemy
Branch Dividians - enemy of enemy; therefore friend

Also part of the reason that several republicans are supporting Putin.

Nope.  He is trying to say Rs loved Waco.  That's a bit of a stretch.  If there's blame it's squarely at the feet of David Koresh and the FBI team that ignored the negotiators work.  This is simply trying to re-write history.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?39845-1/texas-cult-standoff

Fun begins at 6 minutes

[BIGUN 1,051]

20 minutes ago, billvon said:

Also part of the reason that several republicans are supporting Putin.

Four or five dumbasses don't speak for the entire  Republican party. Putin's war in the Ukraine has done more to unite Republicans and Democrats against him and Russia than tear them apart. The $48 Billion Ukrainian assistance bill passed both houses. Those Republicans and Democrats that voted against it weren't voting FOR Russia, they were voting against money being spent to help Ukraine when there is a symphony of problems here in the US.   

[SkyDekker 1,121]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

I seem to remember it was a D in the oval office at the time.

So a democrat took out a pedophile and republicans are now upset about that.

There are lots of examples where LEO and government have fucked up, why this sudden focus on Waco?

[airdvr 197]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

So a democrat took out a pedophile and republicans are now upset about that.

There are lots of examples where LEO and government have fucked up, why this sudden focus on Waco?

Whoosh

[gowlerk 1,905]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

why this sudden focus on Waco?

30th anniversary and resonance with those who call for armed struggle. Which is quite fashionable in certain circles at the moment. Of course it is all talk, or mostly talk. But even so it only takes a few committed foot soldiers ready to die for the cause to blow up a building or whatever. Waco is now a symbol. No accurate accounting of what really happened matters any more.  

[billvon 2,395]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

Nope.  He is trying to say Rs loved Waco.  That's a bit of a stretch. 

Not at all.  I remember rec.skydiving back around that time.  Waco was a symbol of government overreach, a group of confused kids and religious leaders who might have misbehaved a bit - but whose REAL crime was to oppose Bill Clinton's gestapo tactics, carried out by his lieutenant Janet Reno.  They, not any Branch Davidians, were 100% responsible for all the tragedy that happened there.

This was true of politics in general as well.

Robert Rubin claimed that Reno carried 100% of the "ultimate responsibility for the disastrous assault and its resulting deaths."

Cato Institute: "the children died because of willful and knowing actions by our federal law enforcement professionals."

Alex Jones has referred several times to the "Waco Holocaust," making the comparison to the innocent Jews that were killed by Hitler.

More recently, Roger Stone dedicated his book, "Clintons' War on Women" to the heroic Branch Davidians who died at Waco. 

And today Trump is capitalizing on it as well.  He held his latest rally in Waco during the 30th anniversary of the standoff, attempting to capitalize on republican support for the Branch Davidians.  A Trump supporter at the rally: "Waco was an overreach of the government, and today the New York district attorney is practicing an overreach of the government again" - thus connecting their hero Trump to the brave men and women of the Branch Davidians, also unfairly persecuted by the government.

So yes, many republicans loved the Branch Davidians.  I have no doubt they had no feelings for them before Waco.  But afterwards the victims were bloody shirts they could wave, and wave them they did.  And over time they grew from criminals and pedophiles to something more noble.  And today people like Roger Stone apparently feel they are far more heroic than criminal.

And Roger Stone certainly does not represent all republicans - but Trump, by definition, once did.  And wants to again.

[billvon 2,395]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Four or five dumbasses don't speak for the entire  Republican party. 

Agreed 100% - which is why I was careful to say "several."  Most are not like that.

However there is a natural - but today amplified - tendency for republicans to "close ranks" and defend anything another republican, even those four or five, does.  At best they refuse to comment, and at worst they make excuses for them.  Hence the odd appearance of right wing support for Putin.

(And yes, democrats do the same thing for other causes.)

[gowlerk 1,905]

19 minutes ago, billvon said:

However there is a natural - but today amplified - tendency for republicans to "close ranks" and defend anything another republican, even those four or five, does. 

Which is exemplified by those who crossed Trump by voting to impeach having all been purged from the ranks. At least they weren't killed, just kicked out. The mob wanted to hang Pence.

[wmw999 2,120]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

However there is a natural - but today amplified - tendency for republicans to "close ranks" and defend anything another republican, even those four or five, does.  At best they refuse to comment, and at worst they make excuses for them.  Hence the odd appearance of right wing support for Putin.

Kind of like the thin blue line, only red. “I can understand why my guy thought/said/did that,” but someone they don’t identify with? It’s WRONG and must be punished.

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,905]

14 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Kind of like the thin blue line, only red. “I can understand why my guy thought/said/did that,” but someone they don’t identify with? It’s WRONG and must be punished.

Wendy P. 

Sort of like Greg Abbott announcing that he will work to pardon the protester murderer. Apparently it is his view that killing BLM  protesters is righteous and just and that convicting someone of doing so is left wing overreach by a radical prosecutor and jury. I kid you not this is for real. He tweeted out his plans as soon as the conviction was announced. 
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/09/us/greg-abbott-pardon-daniel-perry/index.html

[BIGUN 1,051]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Hence the odd appearance of right wing support for Putin.

Brother, I must be getting old.