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mirage62

P3 and the future of big ways in America

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Now that World team has retired I wonder about the future of big ways.

When W.T. and P3 sort of went their separate ways it split the big way world to a degree, both had successes and failures of record attempts. With W.T. closing out and no heir apparent to that team P3 will become the certainly be the beneficiary game in town – town being the USA.

While I was more of a W.T. guy no one can say that P3 hasn’t done a great job in bringing new blood to big ways and putting on some of the best organized events ever.

In the near future if another organizing group doesn’t step up than X percentage of the W.T. jumpers (jumpers who hadn’t been doing P3 events for whatever reasons) will move to P3 events if they wish to do the really big successful (+200)

I do hope that sequential big ways 50-100 size will stay viable on the east coast, I have enjoyed my mega big way journey but recently have reached a point where I just don’t want to travel as far for events.

Thoughts on big ways future?
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there several organizers on the east coast who routinely put together 20 to 100 way sequentials (Louis French, Guy Wright etc.)? If so then by BJ/WT retiring then only the 200+ big ways will be disappearing from the east coast. I thought WT really only did Kaleidoscope and the last couple WT sequentials record attempts during the last several years. If this is the case then I don't think we are losing anything in the 100 way and under category.

Also, I really don't think we are losing out on big ways in the future. My opinion is the big way world really cannot support two camps of organizers putting together 200+ ways (in the US). As we've seen, while there are a lot of people who jumped with both groups I think most only jumped with one group for whatever reason, probably mainly money. I just don't think there is enough skilled flyers to support two camps. And I think this is evidenced in the last couple record attempts by both groups to build 200+ sequentials. We just don't enough skilled big way and sequential flyers to spread into two groups.

So while one group having a monopoly on 200+ big ways is not necessarily a good thing it's also not necessarily a bad thing. I think there are both good and bad aspects to it. And no matter what happens - big ways are still a hell of a lot of fun in so many ways!!!

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Louis French is organizing his first 100 way in Oct of this year, I'm the bench captain and it will be a first class event as all of Louis events are - but to date he has not done a 100 way.

Guy Wright has organized +100 ways in the past but its been a long time - years.

Your point is well taken that the big way world hasn't really supported "two camps" I have no idea how many people went to both my feeling is that 20-30% might be close. Close doesn't count but I believe it would have to be said the WT came closest to getting the 2 pointer.....I absolutley believe that P3 will nail it on the next attempt and perhaps that wb the proof of your comment.

I disagree that we aren't losing anything in the 100 range as Kaleidoscope has been a very fun event for years, and that will be gone. WT did flight of the Phonix (sp?), two sequential events and as stated K jumps so that is a fair amount of big ways coming off the event schedule.

As far as 20 way sequentials there will be plenty of these :)

Who knows maybe this will lead to beating the 400 way....one day soon for some.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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Are you sure BJ will stay retired? I thought that this was his 3rd? or so come back.



LOL, well I only knew of last years.....but you history in big ways may go a lot farther back than mine. ;)
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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mirage62

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Are you sure BJ will stay retired? I thought that this was his 3rd? or so come back.



LOL, well I only knew of last years.....but you history in big ways may go a lot farther back than mine. ;)


I doubt that! I just started doing big ways after the 400 way. Hearing about that from a local jumper was quite inspirational.

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Nothing about Roger Ponce? He organized several successful records, including the NJ state record (last one as far as I know) that I think was a 2 or 3 point 110 way. Don't remember exactly since I wasn't there. He's a Northeast US guy.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Roger is very active and will be a force in the sequential records for sure. He could pull together whatever he wants but favors the several point jumps not so much mega sized stuff.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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How do you make a small fortune organizing in skydiving?

Start with flying your airplane to where you are organizing, organize for cost or less.

Start with a large fortune..... :P

Besides I hear the REAL money is in organizing boogies!

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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CSpenceFLY

Looks like the door is open for you to step up your game. :D

Time for you to make your name and your fortune in the big way arena.



Yeah, maybe its time to start getting some of the 2-digit state records up to 3-digits. :P
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Yeah, maybe its time to start getting some of the 2-digit state records up to 3-digits.



Yeah, yeah Billy I've been hearing for years about how your going to "maybe get current...." ect, ect :P

Why don't YOU come on out and take over the "2-digit" state record organization? I'm retired.

Beside's Chris isn't dumb enough to bring enough planes in to do +100!;)
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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Many of the long time WT members discussed retiring along with BJ.



I heard a lot of that to....mostly people just "retiring" from mega big ways. But if you figure a high of 40% (and I think thats high) you'd still have 133 well qualified people who want to keep doing them
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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BillyVance

***Looks like the door is open for you to step up your game. :D

Time for you to make your name and your fortune in the big way arena.



Yeah, maybe its time to start getting some of the 2-digit state records up to 3-digits. :P

So how much does a skydiver need to pay the professional skydivers to attend camp after camp in this day and age to be even considered worthy of participaing with the cool old belly fliers.

Just curious.:)

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Not sure what the P3 is now. Their camps are the gold standard of big way training. Room, board, airline from the east coast it's not cheap.

OTOH on the 222 way was a young lady that had done several local state records, POPs, jump with Roger a couple times.... but never a formal "camp" and she did great.

The camp format has been a good thing to bring up and comers to big ways but stating an often heard comment, it's a little hard for people that have several hundred +100 way size jumps, world records AND are current the idea that they need to come to a camp to be "seen"
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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mirage62



The camp format has been a good thing to bring up and comers to big ways but stating an often heard comment, it's a little hard for people that have several hundred +100 way size jumps, world records AND are current the idea that they need to come to a camp to be "seen"



+1
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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A lot of factors involved, especially logistics. bringing the airplanes together is still a big task for any dropzone, and only a couple have them all on hand.

The cost of jumps is rising because a 1 year planning project needs to have some return for the organizers to make it worth their while too.

I expect that the market will bear out what the market will bear out

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In no way am I suggesting that organizers or dz for that matter not make a return.

I think that the sequential small records will be much easier to plan, and make money with - and frankly more fun.

I will say that big ways have gotten a lot more expensive through the years. That won't change. Plane capt get paid a lot of the times - I don't know that they did back in "the day".
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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mattjw916

~$50/jump before you even factor in travel, lodging, food, etc is pretty steep though.



Yeah, a lot goes into the planning, plus equipment for high altitude jumps. You gotta put in the oxygen systems, ferry fees for all the planes needed if not already on site, etc. It's a huge deal.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Here's an example. At the Fitz boogie (St. Paddies day boogie the greatest small boogie in the world......!!!!)

Boogie registration $40, jumps $25 x 5 = $100 plus registration = $140.00 / jumps (5) = $33 per jump for POPs record jumps. Not to bad......

Then hotel $65.00 (one night) food beer $40, packing for lazy people $35, gas to drive fairly close $100. Total $240.00.

Real cost $76 a jump.

I don't even want to think what the 222 cost me.....

But boy did I have fun. :)

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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mirage62

Here's an example. At the Fitz boogie (St. Paddies day boogie the greatest small boogie in the world......!!!!)

Boogie registration $40, jumps $25 x 5 = $100 plus registration = $140.00 / jumps (5) = $33 per jump for POPs record jumps. Not to bad......

Then hotel $65.00 (one night) food beer $40, packing for lazy people $35, gas to drive fairly close $100. Total $240.00.

Real cost $76 a jump.

I don't even want to think what the 222 cost me.....

But boy did I have fun. :)



Ha. When I came down from Chicago for the GSR it cost way more than $100 in gas.

It was fun, though.

I figure around $100 a jump for the SOS event in Elsinore last week, and probably more for the POPS in Eloy next week.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I look at it more as I'm paying to go have a kick ass vacation. Between airfare, lodging, car rental, the cost of an event or camp, and food, I get to spend time having some awesome skydives, visiting with friends, improving my skill set, and I don't have to work manifest, pack for students, making sure the next load is meeting the airplane, answering the phone, etc. What does it cost to go on a cruise, or go to Disneyland, or spending a week on a beach someplace? IMO, one should not look at it as what's it cost per jump, but rather what would your vacations cost if you weren't a skydiver.

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