Why collapse a slider?

[Boomerdog 0]

Was looking for this question in past posts and just could not find such a question. I know collapsing my slider reduces a lot of noise from the "flapping" but there are other good reasons of that I am sure. Soooo...what are the merits/demerits of collapsing the slider once the main is deployed?

[skydiverek 55]

Less wear on the lines.

Better view.

Easier to stow behind the neck.

[Zlew 0]

For me-
Noise reduction
When I leave my slider "up", reduces some rubbing on the brake lines/ slink area, and/or risers.
When I bring my slider down, it seems faster/more simple to bring it down when it isn't trying to catch air. Also the risk of it trying to inflate if it comes un-stowed is lower.
Habit and it is easy/fast to do.

I'm sure people will also note that it reduces drag (and it does). As long as you can reach it quickly, it doesn't take much time or attention to collapse it. Many of us don't even look at it to pull the kill lines.

[Hellis 0]

less drag -> more flare (probably not even noticeable but in theory)

[Hajo 0]

Hellis

less drag -> more flare (probably not even noticeable but in theory)

Less drag...
Imagine your forward speed and a large slider uncollapsed..
No idea? try to hold it out of a sunroof or out of a carwindow at the speed you fly your canopy.

Of course if you go with more speed (smaller canopies) you would recognize more drag, but also on larger canopies reducing the drag is a good idea...
why? speed is lift..
therfore reduce all the drag you can reduce (pilotchute, slider,..)
Gives more performance when it counts: the landing...
And also in your gliding distance...
Full glide is only full if you do not slow your canopy down by fabric or brakes.. ;-)

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[Di0 1]

less drag, although the effect is becoming noticeable only at higher wingloads/smaller canopies, with big fat student canopies or similarly sized wings the induced and parasite drag of the main canopy are so high that the little parasite drag of the slider won't really matter anyway.

Then also what skydiverek said. Plus less damage on the slider itself from flapping. Final point, it looks cool.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Southern_Man 0]

Since nobody has mentioned any negatives, I will. Collapsing the slider is one more thing to do just after opening. So kind of a distraction from the important tasks of scanning for traffic and steering your canopy. Also, if you collapse the slider and then it uncollapses (because you didn't pull the kill line all the way to the stop), that can also be a distraction. Also, if you collapse it then it is important that you completely uncollapse it when packing, so add one more step to your packing routine.

These are all pretty small items and most jumpers find the advantages of collapsing the slider outweigh these downsides but I just wanted to provide you some balance.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Di0 1]

Very true.
Also, I've had the problem, especially on old-ish and worn risers/handles, that when trying to pass the slider over the brakes to get it behind the neck, it would tangle, tied up, clear one riser but not the other and get stuck there, etc. etc.
Quite annoying, I once had to land using the brake lines themselves to flare, rather than the handles, it was of course and off landing and it wasn't exactly into the wind, so it looked quite horrible. Not too bad since I jump huge canopies and not very loaded, but something to keep in mind.
It's certainly an extra complication

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

...with big fat student canopies or similarly sized wings the induced and parasite drag of the main canopy are so high that the little parasite drag of the slider won't really matter anyway.

Wanna BET?!

Maybe as a STUDENT you don't notice the difference, but put a few thousand jumps on 'big - fat' canopies & you'll see a definite & marked improvement regarding performance.

I have a few large canopies used for demo jumps...I've gone to removable sliders on most of them. Pull the release handle and as the slider comes off & the drag is gone - & the risers get full spread ~ it's like lighting the afterburner!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Remster 24]

airtwardo

Quote

...with big fat student canopies or similarly sized wings the induced and parasite drag of the main canopy are so high that the little parasite drag of the slider won't really matter anyway.

Wanna BET?!

Maybe as a STUDENT you don't notice the difference, but put a few thousand jumps on 'big - fat' canopies & you'll see a definite & marked improvement regarding performance.

I have a few large canopies used for demo jumps...I've gone to removable sliders on most of them. Pull the release handle and as the slider comes off & the drag is gone - & the risers get full spread ~ it's like lighting the afterburner!

Didn't know river barges had after-burners...

Remster

[Di0 1]

airtwardo

Quote

...with big fat student canopies or similarly sized wings the induced and parasite drag of the main canopy are so high that the little parasite drag of the slider won't really matter anyway.

Wanna BET?!

Maybe as a STUDENT you don't notice the difference, but put a few thousand jumps on 'big - fat' canopies & you'll see a definite & marked improvement regarding performance.

I have a few large canopies used for demo jumps...I've gone to removable sliders on most of them. Pull the release handle and as the slider comes off & the drag is gone - & the risers get full spread ~ it's like lighting the afterburner!

Mmmhhhh... yes! I love betting on these things!!!
Eheheh!
But seriously, I wasn't making it up.
When reading about collapsing the slider (since, as said, it was giving me hard times), I remember finding this:
http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=652

Coming from Icarus Support, I tend to believe their estimate are quite correct.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Southern_Man 0]

There is a difference (important for the O.P.) between collapsing the slider and collapsing the slider and stowing it behind the head or removing it completely. The risers spreading and getting a more anhedral shape to your wing are a function of moving it from the risers either behind your head or off completely. I agree completely that you will see a difference in flying characteristics by putting it behind your head even on a large canopy. I think you will see very, very little difference in performance, to the point of not being noticeable, by collapsing the slider and leaving it at the slinks.

If you want to collapse the slider and put it behind your head you will need to have a rig without slink hats (or slider bumpers for French links)

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Irm1u 0]

Southern_Man

There is a difference (important for the O.P.) between collapsing the slider and collapsing the slider and stowing it behind the head or removing it completely. The risers spreading and getting a more anhedral shape to your wing are a function of moving it from the risers either behind your head or off completely. I agree completely that you will see a difference in flying characteristics by putting it behind your head even on a large canopy. I think you will see very, very little difference in performance, to the point of not being noticeable, by collapsing the slider and leaving it at the slinks.

If you want to collapse the slider and put it behind your head you will need to have a rig without slink hats (or slider bumpers for French links)

Also gives you the choice to improve the canopy even more by opening up your chest strap. Wich will not have any effect if the slider is not pulled down.

[normiss 622]

Twardo thought the Finststones were pretty quick too.
It's all relative.

[Di0 1]

Southern_Man

There is a difference (important for the O.P.) between collapsing the slider and collapsing the slider and stowing it behind the head or removing it completely. The risers spreading and getting a more anhedral shape to your wing are a function of moving it from the risers either behind your head or off completely. I agree completely that you will see a difference in flying characteristics by putting it behind your head even on a large canopy. I think you will see very, very little difference in performance, to the point of not being noticeable, by collapsing the slider and leaving it at the slinks.

If you want to collapse the slider and put it behind your head you will need to have a rig without slink hats (or slider bumpers for French links)

True that. I was only thinking about the drag of the slider, which is... well... not much.
Pushing the slider down (or of course, removing it completely) changes the geometry of the lines, which might, on the other hand, have a very noticeable effect.

Now that you mention it, when I am able to pull the slider down completely, I do notice a generally speaking better flight, but I always thought it was mainly because the brakes are more free and have a better leverage.
I'll try to pay attention to it next time I do it.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Quagmirian 40]

If you pull the slider all the way down the risers and loosen your chest strap a little, you're less likely to get line twists from a canopy manouvre. You're also reducing the anhedral of the canopy which makes it fly not insignificantly more efficiently. See my profile picture.

[unkulunkulu 0]

Ok, if the subject of the chest strap came up, this video should be posted here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU1mL3YLOIY

some points regarding cutaway scenarios must be brought up.

[Alexg3265 0]

Collapsing your slider cuts down on noise and wear at the bottom of your lines where the grommets bounce around on the lines. Decreases drag and it opens up your view. If you go one step further and bring it down over your risers and behind your head, it allows your risers to spread, effectively giving you a canopy that actually acts larger.

As your slider pulls in in the top of the risers it brings the edges down and in. This does 2 things, it directs the lift of the wing on the outer edges, onto a diagonal vector decreasing vertical lift(and flare) and shrinks the usable area because of the bend. The sides are essentially trying to fly away from each other giving you less up lift. The flatter you make the canopy, the more efficiently it flies and especially lands.

As wing loading increases, the benefits become more and more evident. Someone loading at 1:1 or less may not notice any difference at all. Just as importantly, an experienced jumper with a lighter loading will notice it more than someone who's relatively new.

If your comfortable with your post deployment procedures, then why not take a second (after you evaluate and clear your airspace) to collapse and maybe even stow your slider. It's done it's job, now it's just in the way. If you're planning on pulling your slider down over your risers, it's much easier if you do it before you release your brakes.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[NickyCal 17]

Super brand newbie question: Do I collapse the slider before I've released my brakes (assuming that I'm only collapsing and not doing the fancy behind-the-neck maneuver)? I'm still very wary of doing anything before I do my controllability checks. Also, my slider is a pain in the butt and does not like to stay collapsed. However, I don't want to be placing unnecessary wear and tear on my lines and other parts. What I've done thus far is used rear risers to steer myself clear of any traffic (182 DZ, so usually not an issue anyway, but I like to stay faaaaaar away from any other peoples!), then attempted in vain to collapse the slider for a few seconds, after which I give up and go to toggles. Can I mess with the slider after I've taken grip of my toggles, or no? And not to the extent that I am overly distracted, I know! But again, 182 DZ and usually I'm the only one landing in the novice landing area, so nobody is anywhere nearby after opening.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

I always collapse the slider before releasing brakes. It won't make any difference if you have to cut away if you are only collapsing it. If you are putting it behind your head, or attaching it to a "Sky Tie" or something, that's a different set of circumstances, but you said that doesn't apply.

Have a rigger take a look at your slider. If it won't stay collapsed, there's something wrong. Sometimes the stitching around where the lines go through comes undone and the "tongue" won't grab hard enough. It's an easy fix.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[megamalfunction 1]

You collapse the slider so you don't have to listen to it go, "flappity - flappity - flappity," in the wind.

[Alexg3265 0]

NickyCal

Super brand newbie question: Do I collapse the slider before I've released my brakes (assuming that I'm only collapsing and not doing the fancy behind-the-neck maneuver)? I'm still very wary of doing anything before I do my controllability checks. Also, my slider is a pain in the butt and does not like to stay collapsed. However, I don't want to be placing unnecessary wear and tear on my lines and other parts. What I've done thus far is used rear risers to steer myself clear of any traffic (182 DZ, so usually not an issue anyway, but I like to stay faaaaaar away from any other peoples!), then attempted in vain to collapse the slider for a few seconds, after which I give up and go to toggles. Can I mess with the slider after I've taken grip of my toggles, or no? And not to the extent that I am overly distracted, I know! But again, 182 DZ and usually I'm the only one landing in the novice landing area, so nobody is anywhere nearby after opening.

Sounds like you're getting into a routine. If you feel comfortable with your present routine, after you point with risers where you wanna go, reach up and pull the drawstrings. All the way. Done. (It helps to pull them at the same time out to each side. Imagine grabbing them and pulling them apart. People seem to want to pull one using the other hand as a stop and then the other. Just something I've noticed.) Now you may continue as normal. Release brakes, check, ect. You can mess with it after, but it gets harder. I had to break myself of the habit of grabbing a ripping toggles as soon as I had a good canopy. If you have toggles, that means your in full flight or almost so you're going faster and that slider is gonna be flapping harder. Every reach and pull will be reflected by your canopy.

Once you get comfortable collapsing it you can start stowing it. It was clumsy and a pain in the ass at first but then it becomes a non-event and routine. I jump a removable one now so it's even easier. Just rip it off and done.

When I had a normal slider I'd dump, visually inspect the canopy while avoiding traffic and pointing where I want to go. Then collapse, stow, grab toggles and then undo my chest strap. I used to undo the chest strap before the toggles until I saw a few videos of people trying to find their handles with flopping harnesses. And I promised my wife. The reason I undo my chest strap after my toggles is because if for some reason the canopy looks good and you go to release the brakes and then something happens (knotted brake line or whatever) and I chop, then my harness will still be tight. You don't have to worry about that yet. The only reason I bring it up is to demonstrate a situation where safety is directly related to the order. I've collapsed my slider many times with toggles in my hands. It's just a bigger pain in the ass.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[Alexg3265 0]

Also try collapsing it and undoing it on the ground. Have someone help you hold the slider. Have them hold the edges out and try grabbing the strings and collapsing it. You'll get familiar with how it works when you're not worrying or thinking about everything else going on.

Just a suggestion.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[tan 0]

I think it's better practice to finish whatever you want to do to the slider before reaching for toggles, because you'll eventually want to do that as standard practice when you do bring the slider behind your head. In fact, I think you should manage everything (slider, chest strap, etc) while the brakes are still stowed, because the canopy is flying slower and flatter, therefore giving you more reaction time. Once your hands are in the toggles, concentration should only be on flying the canopy.

To be specific, theoretically, there usually shouldn't be a problem adjusting your slider after your hands are in the toggles, but if you have significantly shortened brake lines on your canopy, reaching all over the slider could induce unwanted toggle input, however minor it may be.

In any case, don't you guys think that in terms of line wear, bringing the slider behind your head in fact reduces even more wear on your lines than collapsing it? We all agree that the slider constricts the horizontal spread of the lines, which means that every time we pull a toggle with the slider up, the brake line would definitely be pulled through and against the grommet on the slider under significant tension right?

[DocPop 1]

tan

To be specific, theoretically, there usually shouldn't be a problem adjusting your slider after your hands are in the toggles, but if you have significantly shortened brake lines on your canopy, reaching all over the slider could induce unwanted toggle input, however minor it may be.

That should not be an issue if you have enough canopy talent to be doing it.

I can undo my cheststrap with my hands in my toggles with Velocity while keeping the wing flying level.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA