Downsizing Question

[craddock 0]

devin2477

Its hard to hear, but some people can fly a parachute and some people cant. I myself, did my very first jump on a 1.1:1 and never even fell down through my first 60-70 jumps. Some people got it and some don't. Tough lesson to learn. Just stay safe and jump only what you are comfortable jumping.

I wish I had one of those popcorn icons right now. Your may get reamed for thinking your a Natural shortly. I assume you are a bigger boy though doing your first jump at that WL?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Di0 1]

rcs

However he does make a good point about the recommended weight from PD on the 240. Look at the big difference from the 240 to the 260 compared to all of the other increases in weight per size increase.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/navigator.asp

It might be because, when reading about these things on books and charts (like Brian Germain's stuff), it is stressed that WL, Size and Performance are non linear in nature, even for conservative canopies that are more "linear" than others.

Meaning that dropping 40 sqft from 240 to 200 is not nearly as noticeable as dropping the same "percentage" of fabric in the 100 sqft range (roughly a 20% drop would be from an 100 sqft to 80 sqft).
Going from WL of 1.0 to 1.2 is not as noticeable as going from 1.8 to 2.2 (roughly same increase of 20% in WL, but much bigger increase in performances), etc. etc.

That is my understanding of the problem. Although I see what you mean, the huge increase in weight from NAV240 to NAV260 and then again smaller increases all the way up to the end of the chart.
No idea.

Maybe toward the end of the chart, they had to limit the WL because they were approaching the "limits" of the canopy design itself, that might in general not be designed for high WL independently of the skills of the pilot, rather than its size? So this "squeezes" the bottom and the top of the chart a little?
Again, just brain storming, no idea. :)

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

devin2477

Its hard to hear, but some people can fly a parachute and some people cant. I myself, did my very first jump on a 1.1:1 and never even fell down through my first 60-70 jumps. Some people got it and some don't.

That's great advice....... but, like you, everybody is above average! Just ask them? Maybe a better way to access your skill is to ask a (or better yet, several) qualified instructor?

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Quagmirian 40]

skyjumpenfool

***Its hard to hear, but some people can fly a parachute and some people cant. I myself, did my very first jump on a 1.1:1 and never even fell down through my first 60-70 jumps. Some people got it and some don't.

That's great advice....... but, like you, everybody is above average! Just ask them? Maybe a better way to access your skill is to ask a (or better yet, several) qualified instructor?
I think he has a point though. We are not all equal when it comes to canopy skills. I have trouble landing in the right field for example, whereas people with half my jump numbers are consistently nailing the peas without breaking a sweat. That's just one example.

[devin2477 0]

Im actually 150 lbs. Made my first jump on a triathalon 170. And Im not trying to say im a natural either. Although i did very well in the beginning, i was still smart and did not downsize until way later despite others saying i was good enough to downsize. I was just making a point that some are better "drivers" than others. Its just a fact of life. The important thing is realizing your abilities and then practice,practice,practice!

[mik 2]

Patterson

Hey man, I'm in the same boat as you are. I had to recently make this very same decision you are speaking of. However, let me preface this: I am a newbie as well, and take what I say with a grain of salt.

I'm not saying what I do is right or wrong, that is up to you to decide. However, what I did was I dropped down a size and played around with it for 5-10 jumps then tried dropping down again after I didn't see much difference. You will know when you have gone too far (as I did with the 170). If you take it one size at a time you SHOULD be okay. It's not like you are upgrading from a minivan to an F1 race car. As long as you are standing up your landings and feel you can safely move down a size then go for it.
.

This is an interesting analogy. A quote from a leading canopy pilot in Europe, (c10k jumps, PD team pilot, multiple competition winner) on his canopy piloting course is that EVERY sub-200 modern canopy is EXACTLY like a F1 race car... The trouble is that the vast majority of jumpers do not take the time and effort to learn how to fly them, instead doing a few jumps, standing up the landings and then deciding the canopy is too tame for them.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[mattjw916 2]

Sorry but that analogy is just absurd regardless of who said it. Sounds more like hyperbole to me.

A Buick is still a Buick even if Schumacher is behind the wheel. Same goes for canopies.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[chuckakers 370]

devin2477

Some people got it and some don't.

And modest, too.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[craddock 0]

devin2477

Im actually 150 lbs. Made my first jump on a triathalon 170. And Im not trying to say im a natural either. Although i did very well in the beginning, i was still smart and did not downsize until way later despite others saying i was good enough to downsize. I was just making a point that some are better "drivers" than others. Its just a fact of life. The important thing is realizing your abilities and then practice,practice,practice!

Oh I agree completely. There is a big crowd here though that think that anyone that progresses faster than they did thinks they are special and a natural and they dish it out all the time in a very negative and downright mean way so much as to negate any meaningful advice they may have.

Perhaps the people that dish it so much thought they were above average and are resentful. Perhaps not. It is more than trying to help or they would change their methods. Most of the people I have seen that thought they were above average talent actually were. People that are overly cocky and arrogant about their misconceptions of how talented they are do not feel the need to be coming on dz.com asking strangers about canopy choices. I think there is some validity to what many say even though there delivery defeats their point and push people the other way, but I also think the people that are asking on here are for the most part not as conceited as the canopy nazi's make them out to be. Because most of who they imply they are would not even care what some strangers thought and would deal with it at there local dz instead.

I won't get into specifics but the DZO's where I learned where a couple and had around 18000 jumps when I started. Both but especially one was very safety oriented. If I were dumb enough to come on here my first year and tell the truth about my experience level asking questions about canopies I would have been called every name in the book and as a result would have thrown any useful info right out the window. Every one wants to defend the content of what they say but there is a reason some are great instructors. Many have good constructive content. Few can deliver it properly. Sometimes those who are accusing others of having an ego problem actually are the ones with either ego problems or broken egos themselves.

I just expected you to get reamed is all I meant. That said I do find it odd that you made your first jump on that canopy and do not understand why. Not on a first jump. No one including you know what your all about at that point.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[JohnMitchell 14]

DocPop

I agree. Why would anyone not want to try out every canopy they can within their safety limits?

Sometimes you get tired of shopping and just want to buy.

[JohnMitchell 14]

mik

A quote from a leading canopy pilot in Europe, (c10k jumps, PD team pilot, multiple competition winner) on his canopy piloting course is that EVERY sub-200 modern canopy is EXACTLY like a F1 race car... The trouble is that the vast majority of jumpers do not take the time and effort to learn how to fly them, instead doing a few jumps, standing up the landings and then deciding the canopy is too tame for them.

Well, I'm sure that guy is a great canopy pilot (skills beyond mine) but not a physics major. Every sub-200 canopy??? I find a huge difference between a Pilot 190 loaded 1.0 and a Xaos 97 loaded 2.0. Don't you? 7 cell, 9 cell, elliptical or not, wingloading, etc. Many, many variables. My wife is around 1.0 on her Fusion 135. I'm 1.3 on my Stiletto 150. Neither one of us is pushing the envelope like the sub-100 crossbraced group. Neither one of us does more than 90's to final. We're having all the fun and excitement we want at the tame end of the spectrum.

I do agree that many do not fly their parachutes as well as they could. I love to sit in on canopy flight seminars when I can. I always pick up something that will improve my flying.

Watched a guy learning to swoop last weekend. He was doing 360's overhead and recovering at around 70-80 feet. I found that a curious way to approach swooping. Shouldn't you start with 90's and work your way up thru 180's, 270's etc. but coming out at the right altitude above the ground? One of the swoopers told me the guy was on the right path. I hope so. I don't want to be doing any first aid this season.

Any thoughts from people who DO teach swooping?

[Jiggs 0]

Not sure that many people would teach a 360 for CP. In fact, I don’t know anyone that would teach a 360 as a comp turn.
Perhaps what the other guy was referring to the fact that the guy is getting used to a turn mechanic and sight picture that means that he will not eat it. That is good. If he has skipped some of the different turn mechanics that is not so good. I think of 180s as a throw away turn; they are useful only in the sense of getting used to larger rotation and the possibility of getting deeper in the corner. I think it is very beneficial to see this prior to going to 270s, but 180s have a number of other problems. So when I teach people to swoop, I want to see a very good, consistent 90 with good turn mechanics (most of which we will carry through to larger turns), then 180s for a very short period (increase danger/rotation/being in the corner) to work on the faster/different sight picture, then shift to 270s and start bring all the elements together

Being exact on heights is something that takes time, accuracy comes even later. Consistency, height range and setup is the most important things to learn.
Any monkey can pull the strings, but bringing them all together on gates is what makes it AMAZING

To the OP: In terms of what is the right size, I always look at pilot, their skill level, currency, goals and their comfort on the wing.
In recreational skydiving rarely is smaller the better answer

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[JohnMitchell 14]

Jiggs

So when I teach people to swoop, I want to see a very good, consistent 90 with good turn mechanics (most of which we will carry through to larger turns), then 180s for a very short period (increase danger/rotation/being in the corner) to work on the faster/different sight picture, then shift to 270s and start bring all the elements together

Thanks for the input. Your syllabus sounds very logical to me.

Quote

In recreational skydiving rarely is smaller the better answer

Being an old recreational skydiver, I upsized with my last canopy purchase. Now I can land in no wind at LP and still stand it up/run it out.

[DocPop 1]

JohnMitchell

***I agree. Why would anyone not want to try out every canopy they can within their safety limits?

Sometimes you get tired of shopping and just want to buy.
Fair point in the parameters of the OP, but in general, if someone had a canopy I hadn't jumped and were willing to let me have a crack at it I would jump at the chance (pun intended).

[Having said that I turned down a VE90 with full RDS last year as the smallest I had jumped at the time was a KA120.]

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[devin2477 0]

craddock

***Im actually 150 lbs. Made my first jump on a triathalon 170. And Im not trying to say im a natural either. Although i did very well in the beginning, i was still smart and did not downsize until way later despite others saying i was good enough to downsize. I was just making a point that some are better "drivers" than others. Its just a fact of life. The important thing is realizing your abilities and then practice,practice,practice!

Oh I agree completely. There is a big crowd here though that think that anyone that progresses faster than they did thinks they are special and a natural and they dish it out all the time in a very negative and downright mean way so much as to negate any meaningful advice they may have.

Perhaps the people that dish it so much thought they were above average and are resentful. Perhaps not. It is more than trying to help or they would change their methods. Most of the people I have seen that thought they were above average talent actually were. People that are overly cocky and arrogant about their misconceptions of how talented they are do not feel the need to be coming on dz.com asking strangers about canopy choices. I think there is some validity to what many say even though there delivery defeats their point and push people the other way, but I also think the people that are asking on here are for the most part not as conceited as the canopy nazi's make them out to be. Because most of who they imply they are would not even care what some strangers thought and would deal with it at there local dz instead.

I won't get into specifics but the DZO's where I learned where a couple and had around 18000 jumps when I started. Both but especially one was very safety oriented. If I were dumb enough to come on here my first year and tell the truth about my experience level asking questions about canopies I would have been called every name in the book and as a result would have thrown any useful info right out the window. Every one wants to defend the content of what they say but there is a reason some are great instructors. Many have good constructive content. Few can deliver it properly. Sometimes those who are accusing others of having an ego problem actually are the ones with either ego problems or broken egos themselves.

I just expected you to get reamed is all I meant. That said I do find it odd that you made your first jump on that canopy and do not understand why. Not on a first jump. No one including you know what your all about at that point.

I totally agree with you about people being over arrogant and cocky. When they act like that, their opinions, although valid, may get overlooked just because they say it with an asshole attitude. But,I wont get into any specifics, the dz i started at was very limited in what they had to jump and also was not the safest place to jump. Which is why they are no longer open. If I went back to that day, i would def say that it was not a good idea to jump that canopy on my first jumps. Its just all i had to work with. Fortunately everything went well.

[jsfirefighter88 0]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice, recommendations, and of course all the trash talkin.. That always makes for a good laugh when their is an argument... To be clear I have no problem packing a parachute and actually the problem is I don't pack them enough because I don't own a rig. My current DZ will not allow a person who rents gear to pack the parachute even if I jump that rig all day, their policy is to be packed by their staff.... This is more reason I want to own because I don't want to forget or have issues packing later on... I do see the points on a Novice comparing it to an A, yes I did look at Novice as A but I never thought of the scenario you described, that changed a lot of thought processes.... Overall I think I am going to look into a container that will hold a 240 and still have room to downsize... I do like the 240, I don't care too much to go fast and swirl outta the sky to a swoop, I enjoy the flight path and just hanging out under canopy.... I am in no rush to downsize I just really would like to purchase my own rig...