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jsfirefighter88

Downsizing Question

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I just don't understand what you think gives you the right to call others out so strongly.



I care for the general well being of others.

When people ask for advice I tend to error on the side of helping them stay alive and well and in this case, have a long a positive future in the sport.

It's a free country, I didn't say he or you should be forbidden from screwing yourselves into the ground under whatever the hell you or he wants to jump.

Whatever bro, your right. Tell him to get the smaller canopy, that's the right call. YOLO.

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drewcarp


Whatever bro, your right. Tell him to get the smaller canopy, that's the right call. YOLO.



Ya I went and looked at your posts in other threads and see your attitude and the way you speak and belittle others is far from anything new. You keep focusing on the content and are completely oblivious to what I am saying that it is your attitude that I responded to. The people you think you are trying to help with your criticism and attitude are not generally the type of people that respond to that. Sometimes just the opposite.

Then you go and lie and insinuate I am for him getting a smaller canopy which couldn't be further from the truth. The very fact that he has to ask such basic questions on dz.com rather than his dz after two years was all I needed to know.

You have an attitude that no one can be more aggressive than you or they will be screwing themselves in the ground..... Over and over in posts you belittle people and their questions/decisions somehow thinking your are helping. You have lied about me twice in this thread.

Yep, Your making a big difference. I hope you don't actually speak to people in person like that rather only when you can hide behind you keyboard. ( I say that because I care for the general well being of others.) That was BS comment also.

Enjoy bitching, putting others down, lying, using fowl language and keep using your condescending tone to try and "help" people. Type A personalities respond to that SO well
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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I give up man, you win. You obviously have much more patience for this. My original post was just meant to encourage him to keep some extra fabric over his head until he knew enough to make a good decision for himself.

Do what you do, research my posts, whatever. I think the general culture of encouraging people to jump the smallest canopy possible is stupid and a bad trend. Someone can jump a 260 for 20 years and have fun and be way, way safer, if their goal is not getting injured while still being able to jump.

Why you care that I like to encourage people to be safer is beyond me but good luck to you.

To the OP, just take it easy and have fun on the Nav, bro. Around half of the fatalities and serious injuries in the sport come from people flying above their abilities. Go to a few funerals first, you will if you continue, most will be from little canopies. Read the reports, big canopy = long and fun future in the sport and the continued use of your legs.

But above all, think about it and make up your own mind (that's for you Cradcock)

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FB1609

Enjoyed this thread...hate to get involved but hey...lol


***
And you bragging about what you were flying a year into the sport to a newbie on a forum pretty much proves my statement about "stupid".



this

This what? I have made zero mention of what I was jumping(ever) and I was not responding to a newbie either. What is wrong with the truth? Nothing about that statement I understand. I simply asked if he would treat me like shit if he found out what I was jumping(intended to imply if he didn't agree it was big enough for him). As in does he treat everyone like shit? Had I researched his attitude first I never would have had to ask that because it is painfully obvious after the fact.

"This"
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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drewcarp


Why you care that I like to encourage people to be safer is beyond me but good luck to you, asshat.



Because of your delivery. I could tell you a 100 times but you would still focus on the content rather than your delivery, attitude, name calling, and person attacks. You speak in a condescending tone in many of your posts. When you say that if someone does something you disagree with that it is fucking stupid, do you really expect it to be met with a warm welcome? The is a rhetorical question(that means you don't have to answer it)

Some people get into skydiving specifically to swoop but you have to make up they downsized to look cool or because of peer pressure. Maybe they didn't get into jumping to fly a 260. Just because you don't get it doesn't mean your always right in your insults. No one ever encouraged me to downsize nor have I others. Your posts insult me.

I could have never raced Motorcycles and rode a scooter instead and I would have been safer. Care to call me fucking stupid for that? Or an Asshat? As I said it was never about the OP but your attitude. I have agreed that he doesn't need to downsize. Hell even the OP agrees to why the foul language and insults?

I could have stayed on two skis on the water and never got injured backwards barefooting. Care to call me fucking stupid for that to help make me safer?

I could have just drove the groomer on trails rather than racing sleds on a track at a high level and never got hurt...

You repeatedly have said in various posts that someone can jump for 20 years on a big canopy. We get it. You don't like fast canopies and criticize others who do. And now we know that you really don't like when someone tells points out your delivery, and that most people that want to downsize fast do not respond well to your attacks

Do you criticize the bobsledders and luge in Olympics because they could have been safer on a tube at the local sledding hill?

You were not talking about the OP in your comment that I responded to and neither was I. You were trying to insult those that want to fly sporty canopies
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Jeeze man, not sure what crawled up your ass about my original post but I'm getting pretty bored arguing with you over a simple post encouraging someone to be safe.

The OP is downsizing from a damn Navigator, I never criticized HP for experienced pilots, nor would I.

All I said was people should think twice about downsizing, especially if you are new to the sport. Surely you have seen the results of poor downsizing decisions. The culture of everyone downsizing as fast as possible is getting people killed. Velos aren't for average jumpers, no matter the # and everyone doesn't have to constantly downsize to be a skydiver. Now a days it's presented almost like a requirement. It's fine to stay on a big canopy if you want, that should be okay too and not "weird" is all I was trying to tell him.

I didn't bag on anything but the general culture of too much speed too early. The amount of "downsizing" threads started here by people with 50 jumps is proof enough of the problem. Sorry if you disagree.

I tend to get "fucking pissed" when people die for little reason doing a recreational activity and then you act like I'm pissing in your cheerios for pointing out the cause.

Chill out man.

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jsfirefighter88

Hello Everyone, So I have a question about downsizing. I am currently renting a Navigator 240 Parachute. I want to purchase my own rig but don't want a huge parachute like that to pack. I went to Performance designs website and I saw that the max weight for a Novice (I consider it an A license) is 192 pounds. Now I know the whole ratio 1:1 rule but clearly this is far from that rule. My weight is 190 with gear and out the door. So technically the Navigator 240 is my perfect size... The parachute I am looking to buy is a Pilot 188. I also looked at the website and the recommended max weight is 188. I am curious if this is correct when comparing it to what the manufactures are writing for max exit weights. I am hesitant to buy because it seems like a huge downsize but when I compare numbers like that it doesn't look like a downsize at all. What do you think is correct in regards to my theory of buying a pilot 188 comparing it to the weights???



I'm about 180 exit weight and have been on a Pilot 188 ZPX since about jump 60 or so. I went down on a progression from Navigator 280 -> 240 -> 220 -> Silhouette 190 -> Pilot 188. It's a beautiful canopy, opens very softly. It's also pretty docile, which is exactly what I want at this stage. If I ever hurt myself on it, it will not be because the canopy was inappropriate for me, it will be because I did something stupid or just had an unlucky day. Anybody can have a bad landing and break an ankle on any day under any canopy, right?

I find the Performance Designs recommendations to be very conservative compared to my own comfort level with the Navigator and what instructors at a couple of different DZs were putting me under.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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I honestly don't understand why, when downsizing as a beginner, anyone would skip sizes that are readily available as rentals.
Yes, you're paying rent for an extra 20-30-40 whatever jumps, true.
You'll hear people saying "by having your rig you'd be saving that money", but then again: if instead of buying a container that fits a 240, you're able to work your way down to a 200, then buy a 190, now you have a canopy that will last you a long time. And a container that will fit a 170, maybe even a 150 (maybe...) so a container that will last you a very long time.
Not only you save money on the long run, but you have something that you really enioy getting used to and build consistency with.
Nothing wrong with staying with a 240 either, I'm just saying you seem oriented toward the pilot 188? I am not saying this is right or wrong for you, I have no idea neither the expertise to give advice. But the advice I can give you is this: great, if nothing will change your mind, just don't be stupid: USE ALL THE RENTAL THAT YOU CAN up to the closest size to the canopy you want,so to build your way toward the 188 instead of going directly 240->188 to save a few bucks.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Di0

I honestly don't understand why, when downsizing as a beginner, anyone would skip sizes that are readily available as rentals.



Just a note. The OP does not even say what part of the country he is from much less which DZ. Many Static line dz's that I have been do not have rentals in various sizes. The dz I started at had Manta 288 for student canopies. Others I have been to have been similar that way and then you are on your own. A few have a smaller canopy usually in a smaller harness for small women. I only ever had my static line ratings so I am unaware what the larger dz's have for rentals as I have never been involved in their programs.

But I wouldn't assume that is absolutely an option for him. I also wouldn't assume it isn't. Just a thought
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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DISCLAIMER: I am not an instructor, nor very experienced (with just over 80 jumps).

My advice is this: your current exit weight and canopy put you at a .79 w/l. This is inline with many suggested student w/l practices. If you 'jump' down to the 188, the w/l increases to 1.01.

That is a 22% increase (downsize) in your main canopy which is large when making the first canopy move. The manufacturer charts will give suggested exit weights for canopy size, but don't do the w/l math for you.

PD may give a conservative chart, and 1:1 is not a hard rule on the books. Depending on what you want to do, that will guide you to your decision. My caveat is, if there is a 220 or 210 for you to rent for 10 or so jumps give it a try. You will see what the change in w/l carries in the way of canopy performance, rate of descent, and flare...which may be more than you expect or less than you were hoping for...YMMV

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craddock

***I honestly don't understand why, when downsizing as a beginner, anyone would skip sizes that are readily available as rentals.



Just a note. The OP does not even say what part of the country he is from much less which DZ. Many Static line dz's that I have been do not have rentals in various sizes. The dz I started at had Manta 288 for student canopies. Others I have been to have been similar that way and then you are on your own. A few have a smaller canopy usually in a smaller harness for small women. I only ever had my static line ratings so I am unaware what the larger dz's have for rentals as I have never been involved in their programs.

But I wouldn't assume that is absolutely an option for him. I also wouldn't assume it isn't. Just a thought

Sure thing and 100% agree, we can't know.
In a way, skydiving is the art of getting the best out of what you're dealt. Not everything is in our control.
When I was working on downsizing to "reach" my first canopy (used gear for small people usually comes with smaller canopies, so I had to work for it), I almost thought about driving 4 hours just to get to a DZ where I knew they offered sabre 2 170 as a rental, the smallest I had at my DZ was a Pilot 188 and I didn't want to skip a step, then eventually I came to conclusion that driving 8 hours in a weekend just to maybe get 3-4 jumps (if that) might not have been that worth it. I thought getting more jumps and much more canopy work on the Pilot 188 with instructors around to talk with and get feedbacks, would have been a better bet then simply going to get few jumps on a 170 and nobody I know and trust to talk to about what I was doing.
Still, if they had a 170 at any of the DZs I usually go, I would have never skipped that step... I would have put however many jumps necessary to get comfortable with it, it's all about finding the best compromise between all factors.
At the end of the day, skipping a size might not be the biggest deal, sure, but if the transition canopy is literally THERE for you to try, why wouldn't anybody take advantage of it? That I don't know.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Just pile on a weight belt to get an idea of what the next quicker canopy will roughly feel like...

If you aren't doing an apples to apples comparison I see little reason to go that far out of your way for ~10% less fabric

And how much are you going to really learn in a handful of jumps at an unfamiliar DZ anyway? I'd rather just jump what was readily available a bunch more times then pick a quiet day with some light winds to do a H&P to try out something a lot more "exciting".
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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jsfirefighter88

I want to purchase my own rig but don't want a huge parachute like that to pack.


what's wrong with packing a huge parachute? you gotta learn how to pack sometime, somewhere.

jsfirefighter88

I went to Performance designs website and I saw that the max weight for a Novice (I consider it an A license) is 192 pounds.


So you consider a novice an A license? So by your own logic anyone with an A license is a novice? If you have jumper 1, with an A license jump every weekend for a year versus jumper 2, with an A license jump only 2x a month you would consider both jumper 1 and jumper 2 novices? I think your logic is subjective.


jsfirefighter88

The parachute I am looking to buy is a Pilot 188. I also looked at the website and the recommended max weight is 188.


Yes max weight 188...exit weight right? how much you weigh big guy? have you ever stepped on a scale with all your gear on to determine your exit weight?

jsfirefighter88

I am hesitant to buy because it seems like a huge downsize but when I compare numbers like that it doesn't look like a downsize at all.


You're hesitant but i guarantee you if you have $2000 you'll still buy that nice shiney 188.

Overall, i think you need to step back, take a canopy course, make sure you can fly that 240 to it's limit. Have you landed that 240 with no winds? x-winds? downwind? steered with rears or with one rear and one front riser?
That jump from a 240 to that 188 (and even from a different main) is significant.

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mattjw916

Uh, he said his exit weight was 190 which makes his wingload 0.79 under a 240.

And what the hell does "fly that 240 to its limit" even mean? It's a school bus, not a Comp Velocity.



oh ok..thanks for clarifying.

OP you are ok to go ahead and proceed with your plan to get that 188....license D has over ruled.

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mattjw916

And what the hell does "fly that 240 to its limit" even mean? It's a school bus, not a Comp Velocity.



Actually this phrase is often trotted out, parrot-fashion and I'd like to know what exactly it means.

Does it mean be able to do everything Nick Batsch could do with that wing? If so, how do we even know that Nick is reaching the limits of the wing?

Essentially, I think it is a hyperbolic way of saying "get competent under it".
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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GooniesKid

***Uh, he said his exit weight was 190 which makes his wingload 0.79 under a 240.

And what the hell does "fly that 240 to its limit" even mean? It's a school bus, not a Comp Velocity.



oh ok..thanks for clarifying.

OP you are ok to go ahead and proceed with your plan to get that 188....license D has over ruled.

Nice attitude again. I love when people actually think they are going to help someone by speaking down to someone. Like your "natural" comment in the other thread as if it couldn't even exist toward a person who actually took the steps everybody wants but went thru them faster than you approve. But his DZ watched and signed off all the way along. Anyway, people don't take advice that well from negative responses with condescending tone.

Would it have been so difficult so just answer the question??
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Di0

I honestly don't understand why, when downsizing as a beginner, anyone would skip sizes that are readily available as rentals.
Yes, you're paying rent for an extra 20-30-40 whatever jumps, true.
You'll hear people saying "by having your rig you'd be saving that money", but then again: if instead of buying a container that fits a 240, you're able to work your way down to a 200, then buy a 190, now you have a canopy that will last you a long time. And a container that will fit a 170, maybe even a 150 (maybe...) so a container that will last you a very long time.
Not only you save money on the long run, but you have something that you really enioy getting used to and build consistency with.
Nothing wrong with staying with a 240 either, I'm just saying you seem oriented toward the pilot 188? I am not saying this is right or wrong for you, I have no idea neither the expertise to give advice. But the advice I can give you is this: great, if nothing will change your mind, just don't be stupid: USE ALL THE RENTAL THAT YOU CAN up to the closest size to the canopy you want,so to build your way toward the 188 instead of going directly 240->188 to save a few bucks.



^- no bargaining skills at all:P

shouldn't be too hard to find some used gear to fit a 210-220 to make some jumps on and when you're done with it... wait for it... you can sell it and get if not all, most of your money back! play your cards right and maybe even make a little profit! rent for 20-40 jumps? thats 500-1000 bucks! well there goes your canopy money [:/]

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Hey man, I'm in the same boat as you are. I had to recently make this very same decision you are speaking of. However, let me preface this: I am a newbie as well, and take what I say with a grain of salt. I just want you to know that you aren't the only one having these dilemmas.

My exit weight is approximately 190+ and I started jumping on a Nav 220 and played around with a 170 on a couple jumps (can't remember the brand and I don't have my log in front of me). The 170 was the lowest I have ever jumped, and the landings were a bit too fast for my liking so I stopped jumping it. I stood both landings up, but I felt the canopy was too advanced for me...it didn't feel safe.

I am currently still in the process of ordering my Javelin Odyssey gear package (currently in the 10 day waiting period before production starts on the container), and decided to buy the Pilot 188 for the main after a lot of research. Now, mind you I have never demoed this canopy before, and I have read that demoing a canopy is highly recommended before buying it. I didn't. However, I did read that the canopy is good for beginners and it is a bit more nimble than the Pulse (the other canopy I almost bought in its place).

I am like you. I have heard instructors preach 1:1 and even regulations state that if you want to be safe stick with 1:1. I will likely be coming in a bit over 1:1...more like 1.05-1.08. The Nav 220s for me are too slow, and I had a lot more fun when I was right at the 1:1 ratio. As a student they under-load your canopy, and to me it was like driving a school bus, so anything close to a Nav 220 was out of the question for me.

I am an overseas contractor in Afghanistan so it's not incredibly easy for me to demo canopies. My last jump (36th) was a year ago in Dubai and it was also on a 220 (school bus!). My thinking is, when I get home I will continue to jump and get my B license soon after I return. This Pilot 188 will provide me with enough entertainment that I shouldn't be downsizing anytime soon if ever. I really have no interest in swooping. My endgame is to fly wingsuits someday, so I am not really concerned with going very far beyond a 1:1 wing load.

I'm not saying what I do is right or wrong, that is up to you to decide. However, what I did was I dropped down a size and played around with it for 5-10 jumps then tried dropping down again after I didn't see much difference. You will know when you have gone too far (as I did with the 170). If you take it one size at a time you SHOULD be okay. It's not like you are upgrading from a minivan to an F1 race car. As long as you are standing up your landings and feel you can safely move down a size then go for it.

Now, I read a lot more on these forums than I post, and I am ready for the barrage of "OMG I can't believe you did that!" or "Stop giving horrible information to a newbie!". Remember, I am only reporting what I did. I am not recommending anything. I am only letting you know that I played around with downsizing and had no problem controlling the canopy, and I knew when I reached my limit. I'm more of a trial by fire kind of person anyway. Only do what you are comfortable with.

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A more clear explanation of what I posted yesterday:

E. Choose your canopy size by reflecting on your impression of the canopy sizes and models you have recently flown, combined with your desire to go faster or slower.
Choosing a canopy this way is much safer than using only a chart published by a manufacturer. Such a chart may be a rough guide, but cannot be used effectively without applying your own experience. If you don’t want to go faster, don’t go smaller than what you are using!

From PD: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf

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Its hard to hear, but some people can fly a parachute and some people cant. I myself, did my very first jump on a 1.1:1 and never even fell down through my first 60-70 jumps. Some people got it and some don't. Tough lesson to learn. Just stay safe and jump only what you are comfortable jumping.

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