Downsizing Question

[jsfirefighter88 0]

Hello Everyone, So I have a question about downsizing. I am currently renting a Navigator 240 Parachute. I want to purchase my own rig but don't want a huge parachute like that to pack. I went to Performance designs website and I saw that the max weight for a Novice (I consider it an A license) is 192 pounds. Now I know the whole ratio 1:1 rule but clearly this is far from that rule. My weight is 190 with gear and out the door. So technically the Navigator 240 is my perfect size... The parachute I am looking to buy is a Pilot 188. I also looked at the website and the recommended max weight is 188. I am curious if this is correct when comparing it to what the manufactures are writing for max exit weights. I am hesitant to buy because it seems like a huge downsize but when I compare numbers like that it doesn't look like a downsize at all. What do you think is correct in regards to my theory of buying a pilot 188 comparing it to the weights???

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Quote

but don't want a huge parachute like that to pack

The least relevant criterion for canopy size selection I have seen yet!!!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[wildWilly 0]

First of all, you didn't say how many jumps you have.
Secondly, if the Pilot 188 is the goal for your first rig. That's fine. You wouldn't just jump right to that canopy. You would do a progression of jumps on progressively smaller wings til you are comfortable going to the 188. This progression should be guided by your instructors at your DZ. They are the ones who see you fly and can get you to your goal. This may take 20 to 50 jumps or more. It all depends on you and how often you jump.
Blue Skies,

Willy

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

[Quagmirian 40]

GLIDEANGLE

Quote

but don't want a huge parachute like that to pack

The least relevant criterion for canopy size selection I have seen yet!!!

I think it's relevant, but not as bad as downsizing more than two sizes at once. I've done it, and it's not a good idea.

@OP, see if you can demo a Spectre 230 or something. You might just change your mind about downsizing. If not, you'll have more knowledge for your future decisions

[dthames 0]

jsfirefighter88

Hello Everyone, So I have a question about downsizing. I am currently renting a Navigator 240 Parachute. I want to purchase my own rig but don't want a huge parachute like that to pack. I went to Performance designs website and I saw that the max weight for a Novice (I consider it an A license) is 192 pounds. Now I know the whole ratio 1:1 rule but clearly this is far from that rule. My weight is 190 with gear and out the door. So technically the Navigator 240 is my perfect size... The parachute I am looking to buy is a Pilot 188. I also looked at the website and the recommended max weight is 188. I am curious if this is correct when comparing it to what the manufactures are writing for max exit weights. I am hesitant to buy because it seems like a huge downsize but when I compare numbers like that it doesn't look like a downsize at all. What do you think is correct in regards to my theory of buying a pilot 188 comparing it to the weights???

WildWilly suggestion that you work down to it is the best advice around. See what you can find, maybe a 220 or a 210 that you can borrow or rent for a few jumps.

I got into a 210 (WL 0.93) at 21 jumps, moving down from a 288. There was nothing available in between for me to work down on at my DZ. I did some PLF refresher, did a high pull at 9,000 and worked the new canopy all the way down to get familiar with it.

By the way, I have decided to stay with a lightly loaded canopy because is offers advantages for me. There is no harm in having something a bit large.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Bealio 0]

"First of all, you didn't say how many jumps you have"

I kick people right in the nuts if they don't introduce themselves with a jump number first. How dare they!

[tkhayes 123]

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html

[havoc996 0]

As a newer jumper myself I'd suggest you consider the potential results of downsizing to quickly.

1. Death
2. shattered bones and months in hospital $$$$$$
3. A shiny new wheel chair or someone else wiping your a$$ for the rest of your life...
4. Potentially being responsible for someone else getting hurt due to your lack of canopy control, and the list goes on.

The inconvenience of having to pack a large chute when compared to the potential risks is nothing. I do understand not wanting to purchase a rig you may be potentially done with in say 30-50 jumps though.

Rent something slightly smaller and jump that a few times. Then do it again with a slightly smaller size.

Best advice I ever got from Lee (the ninja), was if you can't land it under the worst possible conditions, then you have no business jumping it.

The consequences to poor decision making in this sport can be fatal or at the very least extremely painful and expensive. It's hard as a newb to make the right choice sometimes when you REALLY want to jump but usually you already know what the right choice is, you just don't like it. Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[chuckakers 369]

havoc996

As a newer jumper myself I'd suggest you consider the potential results of downsizing to quickly.

1. Death
2. shattered bones and months in hospital $$$$$$
3. A shiny new wheel chair or someone else wiping your a$$ for the rest of your life...
4. Potentially being responsible for someone else getting hurt due to your lack of canopy control, and the list goes on.

The inconvenience of having to pack a large chute when compared to the potential risks is nothing. I do understand not wanting to purchase a rig you may be potentially done with in say 30-50 jumps though.

Rent something slightly smaller and jump that a few times. Then do it again with a slightly smaller size.

Best advice I ever got from Lee (the ninja), was if you can't land it under the worst possible conditions, then you have no business jumping it.

The consequences to poor decision making in this sport can be fatal or at the very least extremely painful and expensive. It's hard as a newb to make the right choice sometimes when you REALLY want to jump but usually you already know what the right choice is, you just don't like it. Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

Keep that attitude. It will serve you well.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jsfirefighter88 0]

I need to clarify things I guess my original postings points was totally missed.. Let me try this again.. I was told by another DZ owner to be aware of people who follow the 1:1 ratio for canopies. Due to the fact that the manufactures place ma weight guidelines on their equipment based on different sizes, styles of fabrics, shapes of canopies, etc.. and to not fully trust the 1:1 ratio.. Per Performance designs website, a navigator 240 for someone in a novice category should have a maximum exit weight of 192 pounds. A pilot 188 also in the novice category has a exit weight of 188 pounds. With these numbers why is the Navigator so huge for such a smaller weight. I dont care about packing a bigger parachute, that was not the issue even though I am sure that how it may of sounded.. I want to know that if a navigator 240 has an exit weight of 192 and a pilot 188 has exit weight of 188, does this make the two canopies similar?? Below are the links for a Navigator and Pilot with the weights that I was referring too. I hope I clarified better to better understand canopy sizing...


http://performancedesigns.com/navigator.asp

http://www.flyaerodyne.com/pilotsel.asp

[havoc996 0]

chuckakers

***As a newer jumper myself I'd suggest you consider the potential results of downsizing to quickly.

1. Death
2. shattered bones and months in hospital $$$$$$
3. A shiny new wheel chair or someone else wiping your a$$ for the rest of your life...
4. Potentially being responsible for someone else getting hurt due to your lack of canopy control, and the list goes on.

The inconvenience of having to pack a large chute when compared to the potential risks is nothing. I do understand not wanting to purchase a rig you may be potentially done with in say 30-50 jumps though.

Rent something slightly smaller and jump that a few times. Then do it again with a slightly smaller size.

Best advice I ever got from Lee (the ninja), was if you can't land it under the worst possible conditions, then you have no business jumping it.

The consequences to poor decision making in this sport can be fatal or at the very least extremely painful and expensive. It's hard as a newb to make the right choice sometimes when you REALLY want to jump but usually you already know what the right choice is, you just don't like it. Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

Keep that attitude. It will serve you well.

Plan on it. I survived for years doing a job that does not forgive error and the ramifications are all around you. I've personally seen a military jumper (static line) frap in on a jump. If you count my static line jumps (which I do not in my log book or on this forum) I would bet I'm over 200. The reality of our sport is not unlike explosives. Very often you're first big mistake is also your last. The "it won't happen to me" train of thought is typically the precursor to disaster. My attitude is ingrained sir, it's not that I don't want to be on a smaller canopy or fly a camera. If you take the collective experience on this forum and the sport and then look at the guidelines for jumping with a gopro, higher wingload, jumping with your friend who is doing a tandem, etc, it's really not a huge span of time between your first jump and those milestones. The problem is that people don't want to wait or look or be the newb. I revel in my NEWBNESS, embrace it, and more often than not get a lot of good laughs.

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[Southern_Man 0]

jsfirefighter88

I want to know that if a navigator 240 has an exit weight of 192 and a pilot 188 has exit weight of 188, does this make the two canopies similar??

No, these two canopies (at those two different sizes and wingloadings) are very, very different. The basic physics of size determines that you will have less speed and more margin of error on the Navigator 240. A pilot 230 would be much closer to a navigator 240 but still not exactly the same.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[champu 1]

In addition to "the checklist" I'd also recommend being as current as possible before, during, and after the downsize.

That is to say, if your routine is to come out to jump every 2-3 weeks and make 6 jumps, consider budgeting time and money to dedicate 2-3 weekends in a row where you can get 30-40 jumps in. Every downsize is a learning experience, and learning is always easier (and more fun IMO) the more current you are.

[shift 0]

How do you feel on the 240? Are you landings smooth and accurate? You obviously wouldnt want to go straight to a 188, but your DZ likely has canopies that will fill the void while you wait for your gear to arrive. With an exit weight of 190, you should be able to hand a 188 soon.

For the record, I started on a Nav 240, then Nav 220, then flew a Silhouette 210 my DZ has while I was waiting on my Storm 190 which I fly now, and my exit weight is somewhere between 210 and 220.

So, as said, talk to your instructors and see about transitioning to smaller canopies. There is a downsizing guide somewhere, which has recommended wing loaded for difference experience levels as well as drills to complete before you should consider moving smaller.

[Feath3r 0]

jsfirefighter88

I was told by another DZ owner to be aware of people who follow the 1:1 ratio for canopies. Due to the fact that the manufactures place ma weight guidelines on their equipment based on different sizes, styles of fabrics, shapes of canopies, etc.. and to not fully trust the 1:1 ratio.. Per Performance designs website, a navigator 240 for someone in a novice category should have a maximum exit weight of 192 pounds. A pilot 188 also in the novice category has a exit weight of 188 pounds. With these numbers why is the Navigator so huge for such a smaller weight. I dont care about packing a bigger parachute, that was not the issue even though I am sure that how it may of sounded.. I want to know that if a navigator 240 has an exit weight of 192 and a pilot 188 has exit weight of 188, does this make the two canopies similar??

Welcome to the wonderful world of contradictory opinions and advice. If you ask 10 people at what wing loading someone with xyz number of jumps should be at when they consider themselves a novice, or what you need to do on a canopy before you downsize, you'll likely get 11 opinions. First: Excellent job of noticing that PD suggests A "novice" load their sub-260 sq ft canopies at a maximum of 0.8, vs Aerodyne who will suggest a maximum wing loading for that same skill category and exit weight of jumpers at about 1.0. Second, as long as you continue to ask "why?", you're on the right track. If you go to PD's much more popular sport canopy, the Sabre2, you'll still find they recommend a novice not load their canopy past a maximum of 0.9.

What do you suppose is the more conservative suggestion? Also, why might you want to err on the side of being conservative when it comes to canopy flight and the equipment you're using to land? (If you're really a fire fighter, if you get hurt skydiving, can you still work?) Where does the statistically most dangerous part of each and every skydive occur? Everyone flies their canopy differently, learns at a different pace, downsizes at different rates, etc. It is up to you to find the pace that keeps you safest and always under the most control. Also, just because so and so manufacturer says that you, as a novice, should be flying at a loading of 1:1, does not mean you should jump from whatever you're at immediately to 1:1, simply because they said you should be able to. Take gradual steps. A next step off a Nav240 might be a Sabre2 or Pilot 230 or potentially even a 210. You might find that you'll take more time to get comfortable on that 210, since Sabre2s and Pilots fly dramatically different than Navigators, and want to buy that size instead of a 190 so you can make a significantly higher volume of jumps on it (and therefore learn a lot more) than what you've been doing with each size of student canopies.

[havoc996 0]

jsfirefighter88

I need to clarify things I guess my original postings points was totally missed.. Let me try this again.. I was told by another DZ owner to be aware of people who follow the 1:1 ratio for canopies. Due to the fact that the manufactures place ma weight guidelines on their equipment based on different sizes, styles of fabrics, shapes of canopies, etc.. and to not fully trust the 1:1 ratio.. Per Performance designs website, a navigator 240 for someone in a novice category should have a maximum exit weight of 192 pounds. A pilot 188 also in the novice category has a exit weight of 188 pounds. With these numbers why is the Navigator so huge for such a smaller weight. I dont care about packing a bigger parachute, that was not the issue even though I am sure that how it may of sounded.. I want to know that if a navigator 240 has an exit weight of 192 and a pilot 188 has exit weight of 188, does this make the two canopies similar?? Below are the links for a Navigator and Pilot with the weights that I was referring too. I hope I clarified better to better understand canopy sizing...


http://performancedesigns.com/navigator.asp

http://www.flyaerodyne.com/pilotsel.asp

One of the things I noticed when I bought my 190 was how much more responsive it is than the 210 I was jumping. Something you need to consider and maybe already have is if something goes wrong it all goes wrong very quickly. I may have misunderstood some of your post and for that I apologize but the fact remains that 60 SF is a lot of fabric to loose in one jump. I'd really try jumping a 210 for a couple of weekends and see how that feels to you and then a 190 before making any purchases. But I'm a newb too so take it for what it's worth.

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[jsfirefighter88 0]

Thanks for the advice, I guess my main concern was that a nav 240 with the 190 exit vs pilot 188 with a 188 exit were close. I am very conservative I am not (at this point) the type that is interested in "coming in hot" to land. I like to hang out under canopy and I understand that extra 60 sf will do that, my other concern was if the 1:1 ratio is correct will that extra 60 sf above me be a problem on a windier day and take me for a ride... I do not plan on downsizing right away these were just thoughts, options and mainly questions... I really like the navigator 240 mainly because I know the canopy and land with it comfortably and accurately, that extra sf just worries me if it does happen to be a windier day. Yes I totally agree in my fire profession that if I get hurt no I wont be able to work and that is more reason why I am not just jumping into a totally new rig and asking questions first. Thanks for all the help and clarifying my "why" questions!!

[dthames 0]

jsfirefighter88

Thanks for the advice, I guess my main concern was that a nav 240 with the 190 exit vs pilot 188 with a 188 exit were close. I am very conservative I am not (at this point) the type that is interested in "coming in hot" to land. I like to hang out under canopy and I understand that extra 60 sf will do that, my other concern was if the 1:1 ratio is correct will that extra 60 sf above me be a problem on a windier day and take me for a ride... I do not plan on downsizing right away these were just thoughts, options and mainly questions... I really like the navigator 240 mainly because I know the canopy and land with it comfortably and accurately, that extra sf just worries me if it does happen to be a windier day. Yes I totally agree in my fire profession that if I get hurt no I wont be able to work and that is more reason why I am not just jumping into a totally new rig and asking questions first. Thanks for all the help and clarifying my "why" questions!!

Don't take this as advice but just sharing my experience. I started jumping at age 54 and getting my primary goal required me to avoid getting hurt. I have no desire for accelerated landings so getting a lightly loaded main early and keeping it was just fine with me. Even when wind on the ground was what I would call okay to jump the wind up at 2000 or 3000 feet is often strong enough that I can't make headway if I am downwind of the DZ. So, on those type days, I learned very quickly to avoid jumps were I would be the in the first group out and likely short (downwind) of the DZ under canopy. But in cases where I could be sure I was upwind, then dealing with strong wind was just an issue of positioning, holding into the wind, and learning to get down a little faster.

My lightly loaded canopy is very good to me in many ways. There are a few shortcomings but I am staying with it until I wear it out.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[DocPop 1]

havoc996

Best advice I ever got from Lee (the ninja), was if you can't land it under the worst possible conditions, then you have no business jumping it.

Baglock?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[havoc996 0]

DocPop

***

Best advice I ever got from Lee (the ninja), was if you can't land it under the worst possible conditions, then you have no business jumping it.

Baglock?

My baglock is about the size of his canopy, so he probably could land it. The man is gifted. Wise ass!

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[rohicks 2]

shift

How do you feel on the 240? Are you landings smooth and accurate? You obviously wouldnt want to go straight to a 188, but your DZ likely has canopies that will fill the void while you wait for your gear to arrive. With an exit weight of 190, you should be able to hand a 188 soon.

For the record, I started on a Nav 240, then Nav 220, then flew a Silhouette 210 my DZ has while I was waiting on my Storm 190 which I fly now, and my exit weight is somewhere between 210 and 220.

So, as said, talk to your instructors and see about transitioning to smaller canopies. There is a downsizing guide somewhere, which has recommended wing loaded for difference experience levels as well as drills to complete before you should consider moving smaller.

Wow you have the same exit weight as me and same progression as I am doing, but you're already on a 190? I'm still using a Nav 240 with only 46 jumps, and I've used the Nav 220 a handful of times. Your progression seems a bit aggressive if you take a glance at the chart. Until I stop over-shooting my targets by 50-150ft I don't plan on downsizing even though I have a complete rig with a pilot 210 sitting in my closet right now.

[drewcarp 0]

I'm about your size. Got a Pilot 210 at around 40 jumps, broke my ankle the 3rd jump on it, beginning of the summer. Sucked ass being on crutches all summer, really really sucked. A Pilot 188 will feel radically different if you're coming from a Nav 240.

The downsizing culture is skydiving is fucking stupid. The one who can still skydive AND walk for the rest of their lives wins. Those crippled by following the crowd don't post here. You won't get "bored" with a 240 unless you want to, even if your instructor says you will.

[craddock 0]

drewcarp

I'm about your size. Got a Pilot 210 at around 40 jumps, broke my ankle the 3rd jump on it, beginning of the summer. Sucked ass being on crutches all summer, really really sucked. A Pilot 188 will feel radically different if you're coming from a Nav 240.

The downsizing culture is skydiving is fucking stupid. The one who can still skydive AND walk for the rest of their lives wins. Those crippled by following the crowd don't post here. You won't get "bored" with a 240 unless you want to, even if your instructor says you will.

How do you know what will "bore" someone else? That is some power you have there.

The biggest thing here is lack of currency. So will that trend continue? But if he was current or started getting 30 jumps a month you have no idea what would bore him. Like to see your what kind of language you would use if you found what I was jumping a year into the sport. Be careful how you talk to people. I wouldn't base others skills or learning ability based on yours and them insinuate they are fucking stupid.

A persons background makes a big difference in canopy progression in this sport

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[drewcarp 0]

You're prob right, we better error on the side of not boring him.

I said the culture of downsizing was fucking stupid, not one specific individual. I think scrolling through the incidents forum (which only reports a fraction of serious, life altering injuries) would support that claim.

And you bragging about what you were flying a year into the sport to a newbie on a forum pretty much proves my statement about "stupid".

I've had a few people make fun of me for sticking with a 230. Several of them are dead now, one of whom was my instructor.

You should be careful how you talk to people.

[craddock 0]

I know what the FUCK you said(see how cool and grown up using your language sounds?) That is why I said insinuate but you either missed that or do not know what it meant.

I bragged to what newbie about what? The newbie that registered two years ago. Hmm. Newbie? What was I bragging that I was jumping? Oh that right you don't know. Because I didn't say. Just wondered if you would talk to others or myself like that as well. I was calling you out on your attitude but all that did is make it worse. Judging all others by your abilities is BS.

I am not telling this guy who is not really jumping and is still a beginner in two years to downsize. I am telling you to relax and not make such blanket statements insinuating people are stupid if they don't follow YOUR progression or some recommendation by other for the masses off people they have not seen.

I am never usually careful how I talk when I am pissed off. I just don't understand what you think gives you the right to call others out so strongly.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.