Aviation fuel and exhaust= possible lead poisoning

[Doug_Davis 0]

Not posting this to start a political argument but as a safety advisory (which is why I posted in the general skydiving section) for those who may not he aware of the connection between leaded aviation gas exhaust and lead poisoning.
http://huff.to/1k3ipEn

[JohnMitchell 14]

Thanks for the links. Used to be you were told not to pick berries, eat food, etc. growing too close to highways and roads. Lead everywhere. The super high octane aviation fuels of the 30's, 40's etc. were chock full of tetraethyl lead. God knows how many suffered what ill effects from it all.

[ryoder 1,384]

JohnMitchell

Thanks for the links. Used to be you were told not to pick berries, eat food, etc. growing too close to highways and roads. Lead everywhere. The super high octane aviation fuels of the 30's, 40's etc. were chock full of tetraethyl lead. God knows how many suffered what ill effects from it all.

On the episode of the new "Cosmos" which aired last weekend, (#7 - "The Clean Room"), they told the story of the scientist who was working on estimating the earth's age, and accidentally discovered the pollution being caused by tetraethyl lead.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Amazon 7]

ryoder

***Thanks for the links. Used to be you were told not to pick berries, eat food, etc. growing too close to highways and roads. Lead everywhere. The super high octane aviation fuels of the 30's, 40's etc. were chock full of tetraethyl lead. God knows how many suffered what ill effects from it all.

On the episode of the new "Cosmos" which aired last weekend, (#7 - "The Clean Room"), they told the story of the scientist who was working on estimating the earth's age, and accidentally discovered the pollution being caused by tetraethyl lead.

Yup... that was a great segment...

And for John....There was no doubt about the health effects on kids...

From Wiki..



By 2011, the United Nations announced that it had been successful in phasing out leaded gasoline worldwide. "Ridding the world of leaded petrol, with the United Nations leading the effort in developing countries, has resulted in $2.4 trillion in annual benefits, 1.2 million fewer premature deaths, higher overall intelligence and 58 million fewer crimes," the United Nations Environmental Programme said.[49] The announcement was slightly premature, as the phaseout has not been completed

And the amount in AVGAS.. whoa..


Aviation gasoline[edit]

Main article: Avgas

TEL remains an ingredient of 100 octane avgas for piston-engine aircraft. The current formulation of 100LL (low lead, blue) aviation gasoline contains 2.12 grams of TEL per gallon, half the amount of the previous 100/130 (green) octane avgas (at 4.24 grams per gallon),[22] but far more than the 0.1 gram per gallon permitted in automotive leaded gasoline or the 0.001 grams per gallon in automotive unleaded gasoline sold in the United States.[23] The United States Environmental Protection Agency, FAA, and others are working on economically feasible replacements for leaded avgas

[DBCOOPER 1]

Doug_Davis

Not posting this to start a political argument but as a safety advisory (which is why I posted in the general skydiving section) for those who may not he aware of the connection between leaded aviation gas exhaust and lead poisoning.
http://huff.to/1k3ipEn

So what's your safety advisory? Don't buy a house within 500 meters of an airport and raise you kids there?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[accumack 13]

I call bullS**t, I grew up in a house with lead paint, sprayed paint with lead ,I spent many hours in the prop blast of aircraft as a kid smelling the exhaust helping test parachutes. Lead dangers are over blown because there is money in it! No doubt there is some danger of lead poisoning but all gas had lead in it when most of us were growing up and I see more problems with today's generation than the older ones. Just my rant!

[Amazon 7]

accumack

I call bullS**t, I grew up in a house with lead paint, sprayed paint with lead ,I spent many hours in the prop blast of aircraft as a kid smelling the exhaust helping test parachutes. Lead dangers are over blown because there is money in it! No doubt there is some danger of lead poisoning but all gas had lead in it when most of us were growing up and I see more problems with today's generation than the older ones. Just my rant!

OR it has had even more of an affect since it was already so widespread to affect subsequent generations. The studies are all over the place and it has affected people. It was probably one of the major causes of the fall of the Roman Empire since it was used extensively there. Several expeditions in the Arctic showed what could occur with the lead that sealed tin cans that their food was stored in.

There is now a pretty good amount of REAL data... hundreds of studies.. It is science.. And that is close as I will go to why this country is what it is today.

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/iq-effects-childhood-lead-exposure-persist-in-adults

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247191/

[NewGuy2005 51]

I heard a commentator on NPR a while back that attributed lowering crime rates to the elimination of lead in gasoline.

[riggerrob 558]

If you spend all day sucking piston engine exhaust, you will die of carbon monoxide poisoning long before the lead kills you.
If you still fear tetraethal lead, then move to a DZ that only flies turbines.

[DrDom 0]

NewGuy2005

I heard a commentator on NPR a while back that attributed lowering crime rates to the elimination of lead in gasoline.

That data is actually considered fairly accepted as true. Scary but certainly true.

Now, here is the reality... We are most likely being exposed to lead fumes, yes. But the exposure is rather short if you think about it. We are not really in direct of the exhaust and there is a LOT of airflow diluting the airstream. The downside is that lead is removed VERY slowly from the body. Its often stored in the bones if it gets high enough. Then it slowly releases over time.

So, is there exposure? sure. Its probably why you can attribute airport workers as having more health issues and shorter lifespans.

Should we as passengers be concerned? It would probably take a LOT of skydiving to get there, and rest assured that over time they will probably come after the last leaded gasolines and remove it in favour of other compounds.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Well, if you are jumping from a turbine, it isn't an issue at all.

If you are jumping from a 182, then there is a strong possibility that the plane is STC'd for autogas. Unleaded autogas. Not all jump 182s are operated with the STC, but every one that I have jumped from (total of 5) was.

And from an overall standpoint, leaded avgas isn't that big of a deal.
Leaded car gas was. It really was. Mainly because there were tens of millions of cars burning billions of gallons of gas annually (in the US alone, more if you count the whole world).

The relatively small number of piston powered planes that are burning a relatively small amount of leaded gas (even with the high levels of lead in it) isn't going to create that much pollution.

Breathing the highly diluted exhaust, even for a few hours a day, won't give a person that much lead exposure.
As someone pointed out, the CO from the exhaust will kill you before the lead has any effect.

And it's a much bigger threat to children. It causes serious developmental problems. Adults, OTOH, can stand greater exposure without harm.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[PiLFy 0]

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Well, if you are jumping from a turbine, it isn't an issue at all.

You're sure about that? Turbines don't run on leaded aviation fuel? The thought of sucking in leaded exhaust all weekend isn't making me feel all warm N fuzzy...

[ryoder 1,384]

PiLFy

Quote

Well, if you are jumping from a turbine, it isn't an issue at all.

You're sure about that? Turbines don't run on leaded aviation fuel? The thought of sucking in leaded exhaust all weekend isn't making me feel all warm N fuzzy...

Turbines run on jet fuel, i.e. glorified kerosene.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[PiLFy 0]

ryoder

***

Quote

Well, if you are jumping from a turbine, it isn't an issue at all.

You're sure about that? Turbines don't run on leaded aviation fuel? The thought of sucking in leaded exhaust all weekend isn't making me feel all warm N fuzzy...

Turbines run on jet fuel, i.e. glorified kerosene.

Thank You.

[brokenwing 1]

just speculation but .....

i would expect that exposure to any lead from avgas is somewhat limited for each individual - unless one is really into the aroma of engine exhaust.

the pollutants that i have not heard much about concern auto brakes and tires:

brakes:
Asbestos
Semi-Metallic
Non-Asbestos Organics
Low Steel
Carbon
Exact composition of each manufacturer’s pads is a closely guarded secret

although asbestos has been greatly reduced since the passing of drum brakes.

then there are tires:
natural and synthetic rubber, reinforcing chemicals, anti-degradants, adhesion promoters (which includes cobalt salts) and curatives (including sulfur)

these when multiplied by the millions of cars on the roads seems more to be concerned about breathing - the dust does go somewhere and not simply washed away by rain.

the ride to the airport has always been the most dangeruous part of jumping!


o yeah and one of my favorites - a DOE report from back in the early 90s on PVCs - seems when they are burned (like incinerators for garbage) at an insufficiently high temperature (non stoichiometric) there is a formation of dioxin - always a pleasant breathing experience.

[Doug_Davis 0]

DBCOOPER

***Not posting this to start a political argument but as a safety advisory (which is why I posted in the general skydiving section) for those who may not he aware of the connection between leaded aviation gas exhaust and lead poisoning.
http://huff.to/1k3ipEn

So what's your safety advisory? Don't buy a house within 500 meters of an airport and raise you kids there?

You make your own decisions. But this was something I was unaware of, so it appeared to me others might be ignorant of this as well.
My home DZ is a Cessna DZ. And given how little lead it takes to create IQ damage and behavoral changes in toddlers and children, I for one will be leaving my daughter at home from now on when I go jump there rather than exposing her to the exhaust.
What you do is up to you.

[riggerrob 558]

PiLFy

******

Quote

Well, if you are jumping from a turbine, it isn't an issue at all.

You're sure about that? Turbines don't run on leaded aviation fuel? The thought of sucking in leaded exhaust all weekend isn't making me feel all warm N fuzzy...

Turbines run on jet fuel, i.e. glorified kerosene.

Thank You.

..............................................................................

Turbines do not need tetra-ethyl lead.
TEL was primarily used as an anti-knock agent in gasoline-powered piston engines.

TEL is not even relevant for diesels ... 'cus diesels are supposed to "knock."
Hah!
Hah!

[twatterpilot 0]

Y'all need to relax a bit.

I understand the "Science" about lead poisoning.
I also understand that in 1970 on Earth Day, the enviro wackos claimed that by the year 2000 the planet would be 11 degrees cooler, over twice what was needed to plunge the earth into another ice age.

Now, for the facts.

I have been a welder, heavy equipment operator, and now professional pilot for 25 years. I was also a firefighter. I was a volunteer in upstate NY.

After 9/11 I went and worked the Trade Center site.

As a result, I had my blood tested for heavy metal toxicity every year for 10 years.

I have been around 100LL, use it to wash parts, and have exposed myself to levels far beyond what the average pilot or jumper is exposed to.

My lead/mercury/chromium/TEL levels in my blood have been, and continue to be no more or less than anyone else. I am right at the bottom of the commonly accepted range. I spray paint with no respirator, I wash parts with my bare hands in 100LL and Jet A1, and yet, my blood is still clean, and my brain still functioning at normal levels. I think.

All this having been said. Relax. My dad used to mix Arsenic of lead and lime with his bare hands when he was 7 years old to shake onto the potatoes as a pesticide. He is just fine at 73 years old.

Stop believing the hype. You probably are doing FAR more damage to your body smoking dope and drinking beer than you are sucking some 100LL exhaust.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[stratostar 5]

Quote

sucking some 100LL exhaust.

It does smell great...

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Doug_Davis

You make your own decisions. But this was something I was unaware of, so it appeared to me others might be ignorant of this as well.
My home DZ is a Cessna DZ. And given how little lead it takes to create IQ damage and behavoral changes in toddlers and children, I for one will be leaving my daughter at home from now on when I go jump there rather than exposing her to the exhaust.
What you do is up to you.

It really isn't the exhaust that creates the lead exposure. It's the accumulation of the lead in the area. The post above about not eating berries that grew next to a road is a good example. You would need to live there for any real increase in the exposure.

But, as you say, what you do is up to you.

Just out of curiosity, does the DZ plane use the autogas STC?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[TampaPete 35]

Not eating the berries next to the road back then stems from the pesticides and herbicides used by the Highway Department not the lead from exhaust.

[chuckakers 370]

Doug_Davis

Not posting this to start a political argument but as a safety advisory (which is why I posted in the general skydiving section) for those who may not he aware of the connection between leaded aviation gas exhaust and lead poisoning.
http://huff.to/1k3ipEn

And artificial sweeteners supposedly cause cancer - if you don't die of something else first.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Andy9o8 0]

interesting individual anecdote. now come back with a double-blind study of 2000 subjects, with an adequate control group, which has been peer-reviewed and replicated by other scientists, and then maybe you'll have something with objectively persuasive value. Absent that, it really has limited value.

[mjosparky 3]

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but we didn't know we were being subjected to a poison that is considered illegal in pretty much every industry in the U.S. except for propeller planes.

Is there a link to this? Environmental groups have a habit of spitting out facts without proof.

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an initial petition and an unsuccessful lawsuit against the EPA in 2006 and 2012.

How many times should they lose before they are out.

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Aircraft are currently the leading source of airborne lead emissions in the U.S.

Again, is there a link to some proof?

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noted that airport workers, such as those who pump the leaded gas, may face the most
acute risks.

And I may win the lottery tomorrow.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andy9o8 0]

(I think you're responding to the article posted by the OP...)