Tracking with Booties

[BobxMarley 1]

Hey DZ. I've been doing a lot of tracking jumps lately. I only have one jumpsuit and its a RW suit with booties. I find that I can easily keep up with the flock even though my jump numbers are under 100. Even when the angle gets steeper. My guess is probably because the booties give extra drive.

Question is...do you think that booties develop bad habits for tracking? I had someone make a comment that booties are like training wheels. Since I am newer, I want to develop good habits early on. So, I was hoping you guys could offer your opinion.

I'd like to hear what the community thinks about this topic. Please note your main discipline with your argument.

Cheers!

Klaasic

[mjosparky 3]

BobxMarley

Hey DZ. I've been doing a lot of tracking jumps lately. I only have one jumpsuit and its a RW suit with booties. I find that I can easily keep up with the flock even though my jump numbers are under 100. Even when the angle gets steeper. My guess is probably because the booties give extra drive.

Question is...do you think that booties develop bad habits for tracking? I had someone make a comment that booties are like training wheels. Since I am newer, I want to develop good habits early on. So, I was hoping you guys could offer your opinion.

I'd like to hear what the community thinks about this topic. Please note your main discipline with your argument.

Cheers!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Hellis 0]

BobxMarley

Hey DZ. I've been doing a lot of tracking jumps lately. I only have one jumpsuit and its a RW suit with booties. I find that I can easily keep up with the flock even though my jump numbers are under 100. Even when the angle gets steeper. My guess is probably because the booties give extra drive.

Question is...do you think that booties develop bad habits for tracking? I had someone make a comment that booties are like training wheels. Since I am newer, I want to develop good habits early on. So, I was hoping you guys could offer your opinion.

I'd like to hear what the community thinks about this topic. Please note your main discipline with your argument.

Cheers!

Training wheels?
So a wingsuit is also "training wheels"?

If you talk about tracking as in "my life depends on breaking away from this group", then no there is nothing wrong with tracking and learning the skills with RW suit.
I'd say it's a good thing to develop all kinds of skills.

But if you mean tracking as in "flocking" with bent knees and some of the group beeing on the back.
Thats not trackin in my opinion. It's more of a freefly.
You might need a different angle with a different suit.

But as I said earlier, it's always good to develop skills.

[Absolut 0]

Hey, they surely give you more forward drive. If you wanna keep doing tracking with groups I would stop using the booties. You have to learn how to reach the speed without any help of the booties and keep it, learn how to fly your body not just in one suit but in general, although I can see that it is very nice to keep up witht the group on your early tracking dives. As soon as you go steeper you will notice quickly that you should definately stop using them. It's a little bit like cheating, you get to your goal, but that way you'll never learn how to do it the real way ;-) main disciplines: freefly, tracking/angles, wingsuit. Blue Skies

[Baksteen 84]

Booties are not training wheels. They are nothing more or less than a tool to get a specific job done. They allow you to make swifter, sharper turns (if you're used to them that is) when doing belly jumps. They also allow for an easier and faster tracking; hence the silly "training wheels"-comment I suppose.

So yes, even for belly flyers it's a good idea to learn how to track without booties since they enhance what tracking skills you already have. If youre looking to get into any other discipline than belly, booties aren't the tool for you.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Di0 1]

Like everything in skydiving, the absolute right answer is "it depends".

I'm interested in belly RW, my suit is for belly RW with big booties, most of my tracking is with that suit, so there is no such a thing as a "bad habit", it's just what I need to get used to and I certainly appreciate them when I need to break away from the group and turn around to see them far-far away by the time I need to pull.

They are not "training wheels", they are tools and they have a purpose. The comment probably came from some tracker/freeflier that thought it would have been cool to make you notice how much cooler he is because he can track without booties as well ass you with them. Which is true, in a way, tracking without them is certainly harder but, again, hey, I need them for other stuff not to "cheat" when tracking! :)

P.S. I admit I haven't done many tracking jumps yet and I generally pull myself out of those unless the organizer is somebody that knows what he's doing (this hasn't happened yet, not for lack of good jumpers, but for lack of time) because there is a high chance of bad zoo dives with tracking jumps, and apparently low time jumpers love to get themselves into those zoos. I've seen a few of those, I haven't enjoyed them, I let other people do them.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[kallend 1,618]

Absolut

Hey, they surely give you more forward drive. If you wanna keep doing tracking with groups I would stop using the booties. You have to learn how to reach the speed without any help of the booties and keep it, learn how to fly your body not just in one suit but in general, although I can see that it is very nice to keep up witht the group on your early tracking dives. As soon as you go steeper you will notice quickly that you should definately stop using them. It's a little bit like cheating, you get to your goal, but that way you'll never learn how to do it the real way ;-) main disciplines: freefly, tracking/angles, wingsuit. Blue Skies

What a load of rubbish.


Tracking is a life saving skill and anything you do to improve it is a benefit.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Absolut 0]

Maybe you missunderstood me, that was actually just what i wanted to say. You just don't always jump RW suits. You should also be able to get a good track on breakoff without the booties, if you can only track with them I would call it a fail. Lean how to track, your life will depend on it, not just with booties but also without. Definately a good skill to master the track with them on too. Always learn as much as possible. Knowledge prevents accidents.

[dthames 0]

Absolut

Maybe you missunderstood me, that was actually just what i wanted to say. You just don't always jump RW suits. You should also be able to get a good track on breakoff without the booties, if you can only track with them I would call it a fail. Lean how to track, your life will depend on it, not just with booties but also without. Definately a good skill to master the track with them on too. Always learn as much as possible. Knowledge prevents accidents.

Your skills will not suddenly degrade when you have no booties. Your range over vertical distance will most likely be less. But you will still be able to track fine without them if you are accustom to them.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[uberchris 0]

is my tracksuit considered training wheels?
i can move like a beast in my sumo, but im a good tracker without the suit as well.
its all about finding a semi-steep angle and de-arching slightly. keep on keepin on

gravity brings me down.........

[Skydivesg 6]

uberchris

is my tracksuit considered training wheels?
i can move like a beast in my sumo, but im a good tracker without the suit as well.
its all about finding a semi-steep angle and de-arching slightly. keep on keepin on

Over the years I've coached quite a few people on "save your life tracking" skills and even though I've never used this term, I've heard it from people a number of times with no explanation of what they mean.

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

Will someone please explain what is meant by "semi-steep angle"?

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

I learned to track at Lodi during the 80s, and was taught by some of the best around. When I first got a bootie suit, it was a bit of a challenge. If you know how to track, it's not a problem. I, too, see too many younger skydivers today diving away in a track. I'm beginning to understand why all these guys want to break off at 5K...

We are all engines of karma

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

StreetScooby

Quote

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

I learned to track at Lodi during the 80s, and was taught by some of the best around. When I first got a bootie suit, it was a bit of a challenge. If you know how to track, it's not a problem. I, too, see too many younger skydivers today diving away in a track. I'm beginning to understand why all these guys want to break off at 5K...

Trying to answer your question, in free fly you want break off at 5k so you have enough time to slow down and track away, and I am guessing with tracing they are breaking off at the same altitude since they reach that high speed, and some people like to open higher as well.

[mjosparky 3]

Skydivesg

***is my tracksuit considered training wheels?
i can move like a beast in my sumo, but im a good tracker without the suit as well.
its all about finding a semi-steep angle and de-arching slightly. keep on keepin on

Over the years I've coached quite a few people on "save your life tracking" skills and even though I've never used this term, I've heard it from people a number of times with no explanation of what they mean.

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

Will someone please explain what is meant by "semi-steep angle"?


I would say “semi-steep angle” is an old Indian saying for I don’t know how to track. Like you I believe anything less than a flat track is diving. The purpose of a track is to cover as much horizontal distance as possible while loosing as little altitude as possible.

Sparky

http://s397.photobucket.com/user/mjosparky/media/Skydiving/Movie-1.mp4.html

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

in free fly

I was referring to RW...

We are all engines of karma

[dthames 0]

Skydivesg

***is my tracksuit considered training wheels?
i can move like a beast in my sumo, but im a good tracker without the suit as well.
its all about finding a semi-steep angle and de-arching slightly. keep on keepin on

Over the years I've coached quite a few people on "save your life tracking" skills and even though I've never used this term, I've heard it from people a number of times with no explanation of what they mean.

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

Will someone please explain what is meant by "semi-steep angle"?

I don’t know what the other fellow meant by “semi-steep angle”, but I can tell you what I have observed.

If you want cover a
(1) distance before you deploy then you need
(2) speed, which requires a
(3) force that is exerted over
(4) time.

You will NOT get 1 without 2 and you will not get 2 without 3 and 4.....basic physics.

There is an ideal angle to cause the most horizontal force to be exerted on your body to accelerate you to the desired speed that you need to go. If the angle is too shallow, you don’t get the best force and your acceleration is lacking. If the angle is too steep, you also don’t get the best force, acceleration is lacking, and you waste altitude to boot.

At the onset of the track (away from RW), being aggressive enough to get a substantial force requires something more than staying at a very shallow angle from horizontal. Some might call it a semi-steep angle. Once the desired speed it reached, you can be less aggressive and still maintain a good deal of that horizontal speed as you complete your track to deployment. A sleek tracker “coasts” pretty well in the horizontal direction.

What I stated above is based on high school physics and observation of GPS data collected on solo tracking jumps and on RW jumps.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[kallend 1,618]

dthames

******is my tracksuit considered training wheels?
i can move like a beast in my sumo, but im a good tracker without the suit as well.
its all about finding a semi-steep angle and de-arching slightly. keep on keepin on

Over the years I've coached quite a few people on "save your life tracking" skills and even though I've never used this term, I've heard it from people a number of times with no explanation of what they mean.

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

Will someone please explain what is meant by "semi-steep angle"?

I don’t know what the other fellow meant by “semi-steep angle”, but I can tell you what I have observed.

If you want cover a
(1) distance before you deploy then you need
(2) speed, which requires a
(3) force that is exerted over
(4) time.

You will NOT get 1 without 2 and you will not get 2 without 3 and 4.....basic physics.

There is an ideal angle to cause the most horizontal force to be exerted on your body to accelerate you to the desired speed that you need to go. If the angle is too shallow, you don’t get the best force and your acceleration is lacking. If the angle is too steep, you also don’t get the best force, acceleration is lacking, and you waste altitude to boot.

At the onset of the track (away from RW), being aggressive enough to get a substantial force requires something more than staying at a very shallow angle from horizontal. Some might call it a semi-steep angle. Once the desired speed it reached, you can be less aggressive and still maintain a good deal of that horizontal speed as you complete your track to deployment. A sleek tracker “coasts” pretty well in the horizontal direction.

What I stated above is based on high school physics and observation of GPS data collected on solo tracking jumps and on RW jumps.

I submit that you need the optimal angle of attack with respect to the relative wind, and because the direction of the relative wind changes as your horizontal velocity increases, so your angle with respect to the ground changes too. However, your body position for best track won't change to any great extent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Di0 1]

mjosparky

I would say “semi-steep angle” is an old Indian saying for I don’t know how to track. Like you I believe anything less than a flat track is diving. The purpose of a track is to cover as much horizontal distance as possible while loosing as little altitude as possible.

Sparky

I 101% agree with the second part and the "purpose" of tracking. Anything less than trying to maximize horizontal vs vertical distance is bad tracking.
As for the first part, though, I would not be so conclusive in my affirmation.

Considering that a "flat" tracking is mere illusion and unreachable in reality, even the best trackers are still moving vertically with speeds that are in the same order of regular belly freefall, therefore a less-steep angle is all we can reasonably hope to achieve.

Just throwing some numbers out there, maybe a bad tracker will fall at a 65degrees angle, a good tracker at 45degrees, a beast tracker will fall at, what 40-35 degrees?
No idea, but for sure far from flat, the angles when tracking remains pretty "steep", although the forward speed gives you a different illusion.

IMHO.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[mjosparky 3]

Di0

***
I would say “semi-steep angle” is an old Indian saying for I don’t know how to track. Like you I believe anything less than a flat track is diving. The purpose of a track is to cover as much horizontal distance as possible while loosing as little altitude as possible.

Sparky

I 101% agree with the second part and the "purpose" of tracking. Anything less than trying to maximize horizontal vs vertical distance is bad tracking.
As for the first part, though, I would not be so conclusive in my affirmation.

Considering that a "flat" tracking is mere illusion and unreachable in reality, even the best trackers are still moving vertically with speeds that are in the same order of regular belly freefall, therefore a less-steep angle is all we can reasonably hope to achieve.

Just throwing some numbers out there, maybe a bad tracker will fall at a 65degrees angle, a good tracker at 45degrees, a beast tracker will fall at, what 40-35 degrees?
No idea, but for sure far from flat, the angles when tracking remains pretty "steep", although the forward speed gives you a different illusion.

IMHO.


All things are relative. You can call it max track or flat track. What I am referring to is finding the angle where you covering as much distance as possible. It takes awhile to learn to do it well, some will blow your doors off and other can’t get out of their own way. A good track is one of the must have skills to get on larger loads, 100+.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 1,618]

mjosparky

A good track is one of the must have skills to get on larger loads, 100+.

Sparky

Really? When was the last time someone failed to be accepted on a big way based only on their lack of tracking ability?

Attend any big way event and you'll see a bunch of people who track like homesick groundhogs. We have even created a new system (tracking teams) that cater to the lowest common denominator in tracking.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dthames 0]

kallend

*********is my tracksuit considered training wheels?
i can move like a beast in my sumo, but im a good tracker without the suit as well.
its all about finding a semi-steep angle and de-arching slightly. keep on keepin on

Over the years I've coached quite a few people on "save your life tracking" skills and even though I've never used this term, I've heard it from people a number of times with no explanation of what they mean.

In my mind this term goes against what I teach because to me, it means a diving track.

Will someone please explain what is meant by "semi-steep angle"?

I don’t know what the other fellow meant by “semi-steep angle”, but I can tell you what I have observed.

If you want cover a
(1) distance before you deploy then you need
(2) speed, which requires a
(3) force that is exerted over
(4) time.

You will NOT get 1 without 2 and you will not get 2 without 3 and 4.....basic physics.

There is an ideal angle to cause the most horizontal force to be exerted on your body to accelerate you to the desired speed that you need to go. If the angle is too shallow, you don’t get the best force and your acceleration is lacking. If the angle is too steep, you also don’t get the best force, acceleration is lacking, and you waste altitude to boot.

At the onset of the track (away from RW), being aggressive enough to get a substantial force requires something more than staying at a very shallow angle from horizontal. Some might call it a semi-steep angle. Once the desired speed it reached, you can be less aggressive and still maintain a good deal of that horizontal speed as you complete your track to deployment. A sleek tracker “coasts” pretty well in the horizontal direction.

What I stated above is based on high school physics and observation of GPS data collected on solo tracking jumps and on RW jumps.

I submit that you need the optimal angle of attack with respect to the relative wind, and because the direction of the relative wind changes as your horizontal velocity increases, so your angle with respect to the ground changes too. However, your body position for best track won't change to any great extent.

Exactly, and it won't happen unless "work" happens. I am with DiO in that it doesn't happen flat (to the earth) on your belly....that is all.

John,
Did you ever get your Flysight back into the air with the audible feedback going? Mine talks now!!!

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[mjosparky 3]

kallend

*** A good track is one of the must have skills to get on larger loads, 100+.

Sparky

Really? When was the last time someone failed to be accepted on a big way based only on their lack of tracking ability?

Attend any big way event and you'll see a bunch of people who track like homesick groundhogs. We have even created a new system (tracking teams) that cater to the lowest common denominator in tracking.

Hey John,

The last big ways I was on, Perris 2006 if think, over the 4 days they cut 2 people for dive tracking. But you are right. I should have said "should" have skills.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals