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JerryBaumchen

Basic Income

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Hi folks,

The Oregon legislature is considering a bill to provide $1,000/month/person for a 2-yr period as a Basic Income to people in need.

Bill sparks debate on a guaranteed income program for Oregon - OPB

My concern is that it could lead to more drug overdoses [ they now would have more money to buy drugs ] and it could lead to a lot more people coming to Oregon to get on the money bandwagon.

I am interested in what people think about this; and, especially, those of you outside of the USA.

Jerry Baumchen

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I think Universal Basic Income is absolutely necessary as automation takes more and more jobs.

But, UBI is fundamentally incompatible with a minimum wage. If everyone gets UBI of $1,000 a month, minimum wage should be cut by $1,000 a month so companies can pay closer to the true value of labour rather than being responsible for people's livelihoods. Companies being responsible for people's means to live gives them too much power over governments.

UBI should give people an extremely basic way of getting by - anyone who is more ambitious than just getting by (who are probably the majority of people, despite what Ayn Rand fans think) can then work however much they can to chase their particular ambition. But if people get unlucky they should be able to fall back on UBI as a safety net. Then they'll take more risks and our society's development can skyrocket.

 

Pretty wishful thinking though, because even many lefties can't grasp the incompatibility between UBI and minimum wage - it's practically a double payment and probably unaffordable in most economies. Not to mention how to make the transition.

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29 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

The Oregon legislature is considering a bill to provide $1,000/month/person for a 2-yr period as a Basic Income to people in need.

Bill sparks debate on a guaranteed income program for Oregon - OPB

My concern is that it could lead to more drug overdoses [ they now would have more money to buy drugs ] and it could lead to a lot more people coming to Oregon to get on the money bandwagon.

I am interested in what people think about this; and, especially, those of you outside of the USA.

Jerry Baumchen

My concern is that all of those at the bottom of society will get exploited to the tune of their entire UBI, end up in exactly the same position, and those higher up the ladder will just get richer.

As an example, a landlord will know the tenant has a guaranteed 1k, so will up his rent because he knows there is some guaranteed income every month.

In concept, I think UBI is the right answer, because it probably costs less and is far easier to administer than any welfare scheme. Unfortunately in order for it to really work you probably need UHC as well.

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

The Oregon legislature is considering a bill to provide $1,000/month/person for a 2-yr period as a Basic Income to people in need.

Bill sparks debate on a guaranteed income program for Oregon - OPB

My concern is that it could lead to more drug overdoses [ they now would have more money to buy drugs ] and it could lead to a lot more people coming to Oregon to get on the money bandwagon.

I am interested in what people think about this; and, especially, those of you outside of the USA.

Jerry Baumchen

We already provide a basic income to the southern red states, that’s not enough? I am not a fan of it on a state by state level. Better to have national programs like the soon to be evicerated SNAP program. Or maybe a national health plan to relieve financial burdens. Get there and if we still need a dole then maybe.

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6 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

The Oregon legislature is considering a bill to provide $1,000/month/person for a 2-yr period as a Basic Income to people in need.

Evening, Jerry.

Cause you know; that worked phenomenally during Katrina. Sheesh. 

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48 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Evening, Jerry.

Cause you know; that worked phenomenally during Katrina. Sheesh. 

Hi Keith,

About my only memory is that just about everything that was attempted was a disaster. *

Care to expand on that worked phenomenally?

Jerry Baumchen

* IMO it was one of those things in life I am glad that I did not experience; as are so many.

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8 hours ago, Stumpy said:

My concern is that all of those at the bottom of society will get exploited to the tune of their entire UBI, end up in exactly the same position, and those higher up the ladder will just get richer.

Yep.

UBI is a good idea but it's not practical.  It would do far more harm than good, for the reasons listed above, as well as several others:

-Inflation
-Support of drug use
-Alteration of the economy

I would support something like an expanded WIC program, where the very basics (certain kinds of food, rent at specific shelters, medical care below a threshold) was provided.  No money.  There are still ways to abuse that program, but it will happen far less often.

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3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

My wife (MD) was an emergency FEMA doc after Katrina.  She says that her services were greatly in demand, essential, and paid for with relief money.  So your statement is false.

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1 hour ago, kallend said:

My wife (MD) was an emergency FEMA doc after Katrina.  She says that her services were greatly in demand, essential, and paid for with relief money.  So your statement is false.

She was part of the ESF-8 Function. She was paid by FEMA directly. 

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35 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I would also support subsidized child care.

Wendy P.

Thanks, I'll add that to top of my list. Child care, SNAP or any other food support, and health care are things that will help raise up the working poor. Just handing out cash, as was done during the pandemic, is both inflationary in the long term and counter productive from day one. Surely tools that will help pull up the working poor from the margins of society or make it possible for single parents to at least nourish and educate the next generation are sensible investments in society. 

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20 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

The Oregon legislature is considering a bill to provide $1,000/month/person for a 2-yr period as a Basic Income to people in need.

Bill sparks debate on a guaranteed income program for Oregon - OPB

My concern is that it could lead to more drug overdoses [ they now would have more money to buy drugs ] and it could lead to a lot more people coming to Oregon to get on the money bandwagon.

I am interested in what people think about this; and, especially, those of you outside of the USA.

Jerry Baumchen

More beer cigarettes and tattoos for people in need.

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3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

What I enjoyed was that of the 20 examples a full 50% were Texans: Fireworks, Condoms, even a Tattoo,  gotta the Lone Star State. 

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UBI is a good concept, but easy to exploit. Vancouver bus drivers hate "welfare Wednesdays" because residents of the nastier neighborhoods become "welfare millionaires" who spend Wednesday and Thursday drunk, stoned, high, etc. but are broke by Friday.

May I suggest that one way to reduce exploitation is to issue debit cards, but hard-wire limits on those debit cards? For example, those debit cards would be useless in liquor stores or fancy restaurants.

Mind you addicts can be crafty people always trying to invent a new scam. We have addicts in Vancouver who will sell their prescription drugs - for pennies on the dollar - in order to buy tainted recreational street drugs (crack crystal meth, extasy, fentanol, etc.).

Minimum wage should stay significantly above UBI to provide incentives to work. Consider that many welfare programs include free prescription drugs, eyeglasses, etc. that are not counted in the ... say ... $1000 per month. If those poor people work too much or earn too much, they lose a few hundred dollars per month in benefits.

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12 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.

UBI is a good idea but it's not practical.  It would do far more harm than good, for the reasons listed above, as well as several others:

-Inflation
-Support of drug use
-Alteration of the economy

I would support something like an expanded WIC program, where the very basics (certain kinds of food, rent at specific shelters, medical care below a threshold) was provided.  No money.  There are still ways to abuse that program, but it will happen far less often.

Mostly agree. A debit card is a good idea instead of cash.

3 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

UBI is a good concept, but easy to exploit. Vancouver bus drivers hate "welfare Wednesdays" because residents of the nastier neighborhoods become "welfare millionaires" who spend Wednesday and Thursday drunk, stoned, high, etc. but are broke by Friday.

May I suggest that one way to reduce exploitation is to issue debit cards, but hard-wire limits on those debit cards? For example, those debit cards would be useless in liquor stores or fancy restaurants.

Mind you addicts can be crafty people always trying to invent a new scam. We have addicts in Vancouver who will sell their prescription drugs - for pennies on the dollar - in order to buy tainted recreational street drugs (crack crystal meth, extasy, fentanol, etc.).

Minimum wage should stay significantly above UBI to provide incentives to work. Consider that many welfare programs include free prescription drugs, eyeglasses, etc. that are not counted in the ... say ... $1000 per month. If those poor people work too much or earn too much, they lose a few hundred dollars per month in benefits.

Mostly agree. A clawback of income should never be 100% so it encourages work. Social workers are the most important part of the equation. When monitoring of spending on debit cards is combined with counseling. Mandatory drug or alcohol treatment programs. Many people can be moved out of dependency. Into productive members and families within society.

Politicians hate hiring social workers however. The effectiveness of all such programs has been studied in Europe and the Nordic countries. But with the GOP involved in the equation its a hopeless dream for America.

IMO drug use would not necessarily increase. Theft and related street crime pays for most of drug use now. There have also been studies in this area.

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(edited)
49 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A debit card is a good idea instead of cash.

Bill's right. By Gustav in 2008; it was changed to a debit card. I would say a greater % used the debit card this time for food. But, there was still a large number of TV's purchased. We set up cooling | relaxation | neighborhood stations at each of the Social Service offices in Louisiana. Things went MUCH better than Katrina. Plus they were at a state facility for additional needs. Some asked to get clean and sober and they were helped. 

49 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Social workers are the most important part of the equation.

Agree 100%

49 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Mandatory drug or alcohol treatment programs. Many people can be moved out of dependency. Into productive members and families within society.

Less than you would think. Done many Veterans "Stand Downs." The first two were very demoralizing. The first was 170 veterans. We had gathered book bags, filled them with essentials, had social services there for those that were not vets, vets went to the line fed, showers, vet rep to get housing, to get housing you had to enter a clean and sober programs and submit to regular tests, etc. One out of the 170 stayed in the program. 

The VA modified the program. 3 out of the 100+ the second time. 

Last December, did one. I'd say it was the best one yet. Filled the parking lot with vets to support the mission. The only thing we did was hand out toilet paper, undies, socks, etc. and we talked to them. Not about clean and sober. What branch, what MOS, when did you get out. What have you been doing, etc. Vet shit over lunch. The next month, more approached the VA than in past years. The difference. Nobody was trying to save them. Big difference.  

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11 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

....

Less than you would think. Done many Veterans "Stand Downs." The first two were very demoralizing. The first was 170 veterans. We had gathered book bags, filled them with essentials, had social services there for those that were not vets, vets went to the line fed, showers, vet rep to get housing, to get housing you had to enter a clean and sober programs and submit to regular tests, etc. One out of the 170 stayed in the program. 

The VA modified the program. 3 out of the 100+ the second time. 

Last December, did one. I'd say it was the best one yet. Filled the parking lot with vets to support the mission. The only thing we did was hand out toilet paper, undies, socks, etc. and we talked to them. Not about clean and sober. What branch, what MOS, when did you get out. What have you been doing, etc. Vet shit over lunch. The next month, more approached the VA than in past years. The difference. Nobody was trying to save them. Big difference.  

Yes agree.

It has to be like an Alcohol Anonymous approach. Because people have to decide they want to move in a certain direction. You can't ram it down anybody's throat. But solutions for most problems should be available. Even if its providing free tattoo school for someone. Just as an example. But such freedom of action and the cash behind it is hard to authorize.

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Curious as to why you don't already think we have a basic income in place.

https://www.usa.gov/benefits

Perhaps I'm too old but I always felt that money earned was much better than money given.  In fact, I think UBI would just be another program that keeps folks down by de-motivating them to better their lives.  Of course there are always exceptions but when the country has surpassed $32,000,000,000 in debt eventually that chicken will come home to roost.

If you need an object lesson in whether we need UBI simply compare the amount of WalMart shoppers in the first week of the month v. the last week.

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2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

When tax cuts are given out to wealthy Americans, do politicians worry that those people will waste the money? Or do they just let the free market decide how the money will be spent.

They just let the people decide.

And if your goal is to stimulate the local economy, that's a great way to do it.  If your goal is to help people it's not a good idea.

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6 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Curious as to why you don't already think we have a basic income in place.

None of those programs are UBI.  

Quote

 money earned was much better than money given.

Everyone agrees with that.  By the same token, assistance given is better than poverty-induced starvation or homelessness.

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59 minutes ago, billvon said:

They just let the people decide.

And if your goal is to stimulate the local economy, that's a great way to do it.  If your goal is to help people it's not a good idea.

I don’t know. It sounds like a lot of people here are assuming the poor people are mostly all undeserving and low quality people drug addicts alcoholics not really deserving or really trustworthy. People are poor for many reasons.

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12 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I don’t know. It sounds like a lot of people here are assuming the poor people are mostly all undeserving and low quality people drug addicts alcoholics not really deserving or really trustworthy. People are poor for many reasons.

I'd say MOST of the poor are responsible people who just don't have the right combination of opportunity/drive/intelligence/color/sex/education/family support to succeed.  However a lot of them are drug addicts (including alcohol) and there is a significant overlap between those two.

Thus if your goal is to just give people money and stimulate the economy, UBI is a good way to do it.  If you want to make sure that those resources have as much positive benefit as possible (and as little negative benefit as possible) I think a different approach would be wise.

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