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hech117

GoPro rules and why.

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indyz

******If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



Are you joking?
A surprising number of "coaches" use a camera as a substitute for the ability to observe and remember what happened on the skydive. The camera is a great tool, but if the coach can't remember what happened on the jump without watching the video they just shot, then they aren't qualified to be a coach.

Indeed.
Like an AAD or RSL, the camera is merely an add-on tool that is no substitute for knowing how to properly perform all basic tasks required of a skydiver.

Cameras fail like anything else. In that event, would it be right diminish the value of the debrief?

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indyz

******If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



Are you joking?
A surprising number of "coaches" use a camera as a substitute for the ability to observe and remember what happened on the skydive. The camera is a great tool, but if the coach can't remember what happened on the jump without watching the video they just shot, then they aren't qualified to be a coach.

That's a separate subject and not altogether true either.

I don't know a single instructor (let alone coach) that sees everything on every jump or even everything on most jumps, and a jump with video debrief is as effective for the student as several without.

Let's not forget that a coach rating is an entry level rating. They can't and shouldn't be expected to see or recall everything that occurs. A coach should have a fairly good recall of his/her jumps but any rating holder's debrief will be more accurate and detailed after video review and a student's learning curve will almost always be steeper with the use of it.

Besides, the coach had to demonstrate some ability to recall details to get the rating in the first place. If a coach doesn't have at least adequate recall then the problem isn't with the coach, it's with the trainer that approved the person to hold the ticket.

If we have a consistent problem with unqualified coaches we need to take a serious look at the ratings process.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

*********If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



Are you joking?
A surprising number of "coaches" use a camera as a substitute for the ability to observe and remember what happened on the skydive. The camera is a great tool, but if the coach can't remember what happened on the jump without watching the video they just shot, then they aren't qualified to be a coach.

That's a separate subject and not altogether true either.

I don't know a single instructor (let alone coach) that sees everything on every jump or even everything on most jumps, and a jump with video debrief is as effective for the student as several without.

Let's not forget that a coach rating is an entry level rating. They can't and shouldn't be expected to see or recall everything that occurs. A coach should have a fairly good recall of his/her jumps but any rating holder's debrief will be more accurate and detailed after video review and a student's learning curve will almost always be steeper with the use of it.

Besides, the coach had to demonstrate some ability to recall details to get the rating in the first place. If a coach doesn't have at least adequate recall then the problem isn't with the coach, it's with the trainer that approved the person to hold the ticket.

If we have a consistent problem with unqualified coaches we need to take a serious look at the ratings process.

I "only have a coach rating." I don't consider it entry level, but the level I currently want to work at. I don't want to do AFF or tandems, but working with newer jumpers appeals to me. I sometimes use a camera, but mostly so the student has a video of their dive, not because I need to remember something. Also, I wish more Instructors (AFF, SL, IAD) would video landings, because that is often forgotten in the debrief.

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chuckakers

*********If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



Are you joking?
A surprising number of "coaches" use a camera as a substitute for the ability to observe and remember what happened on the skydive. The camera is a great tool, but if the coach can't remember what happened on the jump without watching the video they just shot, then they aren't qualified to be a coach.

That's a separate subject and not altogether true either.

I don't know a single instructor (let alone coach) that sees everything on every jump or even everything on most jumps, and a jump with video debrief is as effective for the student as several without.

Let's not forget that a coach rating is an entry level rating. They can't and shouldn't be expected to see or recall everything that occurs. A coach should have a fairly good recall of his/her jumps but any rating holder's debrief will be more accurate and detailed after video review and a student's learning curve will almost always be steeper with the use of it.

Besides, the coach had to demonstrate some ability to recall details to get the rating in the first place. If a coach doesn't have at least adequate recall then the problem isn't with the coach, it's with the trainer that approved the person to hold the ticket.

If we have a consistent problem with unqualified coaches we need to take a serious look at the ratings process.
I agree with everything in your last post. I agree that cameras are an extremely valuable instruction tool and encourage their use. I don't expect every coach (or instructor, or 20k jump world champion, or whoever) to see and remember every tiny detail of every skydive. The thing I disagreed with was where you said "are you joking" in response to "if you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you." I expect a coach to be able to give their student their money's worth in the debrief even if the camera failed. There are coaches (and instructors) who can't do that.

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indyz

************If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



Are you joking?
A surprising number of "coaches" use a camera as a substitute for the ability to observe and remember what happened on the skydive. The camera is a great tool, but if the coach can't remember what happened on the jump without watching the video they just shot, then they aren't qualified to be a coach.

That's a separate subject and not altogether true either.

I don't know a single instructor (let alone coach) that sees everything on every jump or even everything on most jumps, and a jump with video debrief is as effective for the student as several without.

Let's not forget that a coach rating is an entry level rating. They can't and shouldn't be expected to see or recall everything that occurs. A coach should have a fairly good recall of his/her jumps but any rating holder's debrief will be more accurate and detailed after video review and a student's learning curve will almost always be steeper with the use of it.

Besides, the coach had to demonstrate some ability to recall details to get the rating in the first place. If a coach doesn't have at least adequate recall then the problem isn't with the coach, it's with the trainer that approved the person to hold the ticket.

If we have a consistent problem with unqualified coaches we need to take a serious look at the ratings process.
I agree with everything in your last post. I agree that cameras are an extremely valuable instruction tool and encourage their use. I don't expect every coach (or instructor, or 20k jump world champion, or whoever) to see and remember every tiny detail of every skydive. The thing I disagreed with was where you said "are you joking" in response to "if you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you." I expect a coach to be able to give their student their money's worth in the debrief even if the camera failed. There are coaches (and instructors) who can't do that.

I guess we agree on all points. I would add that any rating holder that doesn't have the recall to debrief with a fair amount of accuracy needs to be removed from the instructional program.

Further, if you personally know of someone that meets that description I suggest you lobby the DZO, Chief Instructor, or S&TA to address it. Silence is advocacy.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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DSE

back to a discussion you and I had a couple years ago;

How would you feel if USPA added a camera training section to the Coaches Course? I have added it to my own, but it's certainly not standardized.



If and when I get to the point both in jump numbers and my own experience level to seek out a coach course, I would look for one such as that.

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ianyapxw

For those who push for the 200 jumps so strongly, are you prepared to basically tell the APF that they're doing something wrong, and if so, what is it.



On that note, in the Netherlands you need a B-licence, written permission from an instructor and:
- 200 formation skydives to film in freefall
- 10 CReW jumps to film CReW (outside video only)
- 100 CReW jumps to film CReW (inside video)

And these aren't any 'recommendations' either. B|

What other countries enforce is up to them.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Quote

For those who push for the 200 jumps so strongly, are you prepared to basically tell the APF that they're doing something wrong, and if so, what is it.



There isn't enough data to know if they're doing anything specifically wrong, but if you look at combined fatalities over the last five years between Ausralia and the US, Australia accounts for about 15% of the total where it only has about 7% the population of the US. Either they have twice the per capita of jumpers as the US... or it's possible that they're doing something wrong (or just different).
Owned by Remi #?

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I mean there's obviously a lot more that needs to be examined in your data. How many jumpers does Australia have vs US and how many jumps can you do (given you can jump year round).

How many of these deaths are directly related to a noob using a camera or related to that (eg, snag, low pull cause distracted, etc...)

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As a newish camera flyer.. a course of some sort would be interesting. I agree with some previous posters too.. cameras ARE a distraction and have seen people dicking around with their gopro and not checking gear / handles etc.. I'm guilty of doing it when first getting a camera.. It is disturbing to see kids with 30 jumps asking if their red light is flashing or not when the door is open.

Thanks to DSE for taking time to point out things I was unaware of and some guidance some moons ago...
Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

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Man, that event at Sebastian seems long, long ago.
If more people would take the time to understand the challenges and dial in the practices, I'm confident the resistance to cameras early in a skydiving career would diminish.
I know I feel better teaching coaches to use cameras.

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The best coaches do not rely on cameras.

The best coaches start by tickling their own brains - as they walk back from the landing field.
Secondly, they tickle the junior jumper's/student's brains by asking them how much they (student) remember.
Thirdly, the coach tells the student what he/she remembers.
Fourthly, they both go watch the video together.
Finally, the coach gives the student a few pointers on how to improve their next skydive and dirt-dives the new moves until the student "gets it."

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riggerrob

The best coaches do not rely on cameras.

The best coaches start by tickling their own brains - as they walk back from the landing field.
Secondly, they tickle the junior jumper's/student's brains by asking them how much they (student) remember.
Thirdly, the coach tells the student what he/she remembers.
Fourthly, they both go watch the video together.
Finally, the coach gives the student a few pointers on how to improve their next skydive and dirt-dives the new moves until the student "gets it."



That's old news. ALL rating holders should do ALL those things on ALL jumps. Those techniques are no different than when I got my ratings more than 25 years ago.

My point wasn't that rating holders should rely on video for their own recall. My point was that students - or anyone for that matter - learn far better seeing their actions as they actually happened through the use of video debrief than without it.

While we're on the subject, it is also helpful for the rating holder to review the video after his/her own so-called brain tickle, but before the brain tickle and video review with the student. Doing so let's the rating holder privately review his/her own recall capabilities so they know what to work on and then present the true picture to the student rather than tell the student things based on recall and then back-pedal when the video doesn't precisely match the footage.

It's good to test ourselves but there's no need to test ourselves in the presence of our students.

Recall is obviously important to the rating holder and I never suggested that video be used in place of recall for that purpose.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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riggerrob

The best coaches do not rely on cameras.

The best coaches start by tickling their own brains - as they walk back from the landing field.
Secondly, they tickle the junior jumper's/student's brains by asking them how much they (student) remember.
Thirdly, the coach tells the student what he/she remembers.
Fourthly, they both go watch the video together.
Finally, the coach gives the student a few pointers on how to improve their next skydive and dirt-dives the new moves until the student "gets it."



This is how we/I teach here as well, except that the mental videotape of the skydive starts after opening, once heading towards the DZ has been established. I am/was under the impression that this is how all Coach Examiners teach their debrief processes?

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topdocker

I "only have a coach rating." I don't consider it entry level, but the level I currently want to work at.



+1.

Outside training, coach jumps are most of my jumps. I love them, I'm apparently pretty good at it and my students do well afterwards. I could do many times more than I do because there's certainly demand.

I love being "only a coach". To me, the time after AFF, that flex in the learning curve, is where skydivers are at their most interesting!
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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Here in Brazil they just dropped camera usage from C License (250 jumps) to B license (50 jumps) to fun jumpers (but still is C License for "professional" camera flyers).

As a fairly novice jumper that already go some bumps on the road I feel I can give some opinions.

When you have a small camera, you should put it where it is least risky to entagle with the lines and risers. I jump with my camera just above my eyes, in a front mount. I do not feel safe when it is on top of my helmet just like an unicorn horn. I would feel safer if I had something that woul be flatter that would have less risk of entangelment with the screw of my camera.

One thing I noticed jumping here in Brazil, is that skydivers film one another to debrief themselves after a jump, some times even with the help of more experienced jumpers that were not on the jump. I know it's not the same as getting some coaching, but when you have to pay 300 BRL to do a coach jump (aprox. 120 USD) it really stings to the vast majority of brazilians (consider that the averege income in Brazil is lower that in the US/Europe). Not denying that it's not wotth it(the coaching), but... [:/]

For entaglement issues, I see that most skydivers are not prepared for something like that (regardless if you have 50 jumps or 5000 jumps). I saw myself a skydiver with about 2000 jumps saying that if he got an entaglment, he didn't knew what to do and that he'd be screwed if somethign like that happened.

As for distractions, different jumpers are going to have different perceptions on having a camera with them.

If you act as "turn it on and forget about it until after you land", the main distraction you have is turning it on just before getting out of the door. Today, this is very commonplace in the DZs i've jumped here in Brazil. Focus on the jump after switching the camera on, just that.

When you jump with your camera on a fun jump and want to get "the right angle", turn it off with an open canopy to save battery or memmory space and stuff like that, don't jump with it, it is dirtracting you in ways it should not, and that really makes the jump more dangerous.

As for coaches with camera, I already gave the camera more importance that it need. Good coaches do not need a camera to train you, that's for sure. But the camera is a very valuable tool for any coach, no human beeing is able to rembember every single detail about the jump. And as a student, any student, specially the more novice we are, we are going to appreciate to see ourselves getting better on video.

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TheCaptain

Cameras can be a distraction regardless of how many jumps you got. A couple years ago I watch 2 jumpers with over 300 jumps each so distracted by getting a gopro turned on and recording that from 10000ft AGL to their actual exit from the plane (13000ft AGL) that is all they concentrated on.



They should of probably read the manual on how to use the GoPro before attempting bring it into the sky lol! That is pretty bad having to fiddle with it for that much AGL...

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bialicki



They should of probably read the manual on how to use the GoPro before attempting bring it into the sky lol! That is pretty bad having to fiddle with it for that much AGL...



That is really part of the issue. Even if you do use the manual, using these cameras in the air is different and often there are snags/problems that come up. When it is mounted to your helmet, or on your head...sometimes what can be easy on the ground can be tricky in the air/aircraft.

I've seen something similar to what was mentioned below (10K to 13K messing with it)happen just because someone accidentally pushed the mode button on their gopro, and when they did the "is it flashing" dance with their buddy...and it wasn't flashing... it took them a while to figure out it wasn't in the right mode, get the helmet off, fix the mode, get it running and get it back on. Easy on the ground, not so easy on jump run when it is on your head in a noisy airplane and you are relying on others who may or may not know how the gear works. It can be much more of a distraction than you would think a 1 or 2 button camera should be.

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In Germany, there are no b/c/d licenses, the rule is 100 jumps.

The idea that most of the footage on is wasted is pfft. So what? That's what happens when you film real life, you film for hours to get a few seconds of great footage, pull what you want and throw the rest away. How many months do you think a Nat Geo documentarian has to film to get a few perfect seconds of a cheetah chasing down a gazelle in just the right composition? How many rolls of film/memory cards do they go through for that perfect cover image? How many jumps is the perfect picture worth?

I won't say it doesn't happen, but I've yet (in all my year in the sport) to see a fun jumper care more about the perfect shot than about the jump. I have seen some really awesome shots that were gotten incidentally though, and I've seen a lot of boogie compilation videos that pull maybe 3-5 seconds of "ok" footage from a single jump to add to the video. In the end it's about being social and sharing the experience, not about turning out product or being super cool.

I've also seen just about every jumper at my home DZ with a Drift or GoPro or other low profile camera using a mounted remote to control it, taking out even more of the distraction factor. It's nice to not have to wonder what mode you're in or whether you're flashing.

Zlew


sometimes what can be easy on the ground can be tricky in the air



Doesn't this apply to the whole sport? How is it that we trust students to do their EPs or to find their pilot chute?

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MikeBIBOM


I won't say it doesn't happen, but I've yet (in all my year in the sport) to see a fun jumper care more about the perfect shot than about the jump.



Some good examples here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Quote

In the end it's about being social and sharing the experience, not about turning out product or being super cool.



I'd agree with that, and add that being able to do that and do it as safely as possible. Even the 2-3 button action cameras can/do add complexity and require extra attention/distraction.

Quote

I've also seen just about every jumper at my home DZ with a Drift or GoPro or other low profile camera using a mounted remote to control it, taking out even more of the distraction factor. It's nice to not have to wonder what mode you're in or whether you're flashing.



I use a remote for mine, and I love it. It does take some of the guess work and need for other people out of the equation. My example from my last note was just a single instance of a way the small cameras can distract and take more time than you would think they should. Even if you know how to use your camera well on the ground, you might find it can not go as smoothly when you put them into a skydiving situation where you can't see it or have your hands on it. Also having the experience/maturity to know when you can give attention to "the shot" and when it needs to be elsewhere isn't something easy to train or practice, but caused many of the problems in the list of incidents in the link above.

Quote

Doesn't this apply to the whole sport? How is it that we trust students to do their EPs or to find their pilot chute?


I would love to think that most people (esp. newer jumpers) spend as much time practicing all of the possible scenarios, issues, problems, with their action cameras as they do with their EPs. I don't think that is the case. The general idea with the license/jump number requirements and recommendations for camera is to help insure that people are proficient and comfortable enough with the other complexities in skydiving before adding in the additional distractions and risks associated with something seemingly as simple as a GoPro.

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>I won't say it doesn't happen, but I've yet (in all my year in the sport) to see a
>fun jumper care more about the perfect shot than about the jump.

It's happened to me, it's happened to half a dozen people I've been jumping with. Most often it manifests itself by taking your eyes off where you are supposed to be looking (the organizer, the center) to get that shot.

>I've also seen just about every jumper at my home DZ with a Drift or GoPro or
>other low profile camera using a mounted remote to control it, taking out even
>more of the distraction factor.

How convenient the controls are is about 1% of the distraction factor.

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Zlew


Also having the experience/maturity to know when you can give attention to "the shot" and when it needs to be elsewhere isn't something easy to train or practice, but caused many of the problems in the list of incidents in the link above.



Going and looking at the link to the incidents thread, I've been fortunate that I've avoided that kind of jumper. The folks I usually jump with are more interested in "getting it right" than in mugging for the cameras. ... Heh, Germans.

Quote


I would love to think that most people (esp. newer jumpers) spend as much time practicing all of the possible scenarios, issues, problems, with their action cameras as they do with their EPs. I don't think that is the case. The general idea with the license/jump number requirements and recommendations for camera is to help insure that people are proficient and comfortable enough with the other complexities in skydiving before adding in the additional distractions and risks associated with something seemingly as simple as a GoPro.



And again looking at the incidents thread, I think the real issue is what you said "seemingly simple" it's not just newbies either, that Canadian Demo team, and DSE despite being a pro photographer still treated it like an afterthought or a toy, rather than taking it seriously before arriving at the DZ.

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MikeBIBOM


The idea that most of the footage on is wasted is pfft. So what? That's what happens when you film real life, you film for hours to get a few seconds of great footage, pull what you want and throw the rest away. How many months do you think a Nat Geo documentarian has to film to get a few perfect seconds of a cheetah chasing down a gazelle in just the right composition? How many rolls of film/memory cards do they go through for that perfect cover image? How many jumps is the perfect picture worth?



I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only person who finds 95% of skydiving video & stills (be they frame grabs or actual stills) to be pretty boring. It's gotten even worse with the proliferation of GoPros. Once you get over the "OMG check out my face in freefall isn't it funny!" novelty, most of what you get from most skydives is pretty boring. The majority of people who strap a camera on their head are lucky to get an interesting shot; they're not going after the artistry... or the framing ... or the lighting/ colors... or any of that.

That's not to diminish the awesome work of the many skilled photographers and videographers in this sport (I've got many of their shots on my "I love me" wall!), nor to diminish the technical prowess of the top team and event videographers, whose job it is to have perfect timing and perfect framing every time ... it takes great skill to do that and do it consistently and well, and I know they all had to start somewhere. But it's also not most of what's produced these days, and I'd venture to guess that those kinds of skills aren't what most weekend jumpers slapping a GoPro on are trying to build. They just want something to throw on YouTube after each weekend so they can show their Facebook friends how cool they are.

Maybe that's part of why I've never strapped a GoPro on. I don't do outside video, and inside video isn't usually that helpful in debriefing, at least not for bigger groups - it has its uses in a 1:1 situation for sure. Most of the time debriefing is about the only reason I even find video of my own skydives interesting. :D:D

Now, well-edited compilations can be a lot of fun, and I admire the skill and patience it takes to pull together a well-edited piece. But most people don't bother with that.

(All that is to say, go on with your bad self strapping on your GoPro when you're ready, but don't kid yourself that it's all that interesting or useful or artistic! :D:D)
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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MikeBIBOM

In Germany, there are no b/c/d licenses, the rule is 100 jumps.

The idea that most of the footage on is wasted is pfft. So what? That's what happens when you film real life, you film for hours to get a few seconds of great footage, pull what you want and throw the rest away. How many months do you think a Nat Geo documentarian has to film to get a few perfect seconds of a cheetah chasing down a gazelle in just the right composition? How many rolls of film/memory cards do they go through for that perfect cover image? How many jumps is the perfect picture worth?

I won't say it doesn't happen, but I've yet (in all my year in the sport) to see a fun jumper care more about the perfect shot than about the jump. I have seen some really awesome shots that were gotten incidentally though, and I've seen a lot of boogie compilation videos that pull maybe 3-5 seconds of "ok" footage from a single jump to add to the video. In the end it's about being social and sharing the experience, not about turning out product or being super cool.

I've also seen just about every jumper at my home DZ with a Drift or GoPro or other low profile camera using a mounted remote to control it, taking out even more of the distraction factor. It's nice to not have to wonder what mode you're in or whether you're flashing.

***
sometimes what can be easy on the ground can be tricky in the air



Doesn't this apply to the whole sport? How is it that we trust students to do their EPs or to find their pilot chute?

+1
The new cameras arent that tricky.

Oh my gosh they were fooling with buttons on the plane?!? Is that taking important time away from doing the proper skydiver fist pound/handshake or something? Which is all I see happening on 99% of flights? (Other than the occasional safety and handle check)

People in this thread just sound old.

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