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hech117

GoPro rules and why.

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parachutist

***I find it amusing that they will give someone a coach rating but don't find them competent enough to jump with a camera.:D



Coaches have been trained to observe and report. They have not been trained to jump with a camera without endangering themselves or others. Seems pretty self-explanatory why the two ideas are mutually exclusive

99% of people jumping with cameras havent been trained to do so.

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Doug_Davis

99% of people jumping with cameras havent been trained to do so.



You pulled that number out of nowhere, and without much experience to back it up. Quite a few jumpers have either been to a skydiving videography class or sought the mentorship of a seasoned videographer.

Many new jumpers have not sought any training whatsoever, but it's certainly not near 99%.

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Some dude with less than 200 jumps; I am not so sure they would quit working the camera problem and focus on the real issue. Just my opinion.



Not trying to make a point about camera rules but behavior in general, jump numbers to not cause good or bad choices. A recent swoop demonstration by an S&TA, into a spectator on Safety Day is just another example of the fact that experience, knowledge, and training are not the solution to making the choice to do what you should rather than what you desire.

Training, knowledge, and experience are critical tools, if used. 200 jumps or 2000 jumps will not make much difference to the person that wants to ignore what they really need to do...properly.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Training, knowledge, and experience are critical tools, if used. 200 jumps or 2000 jumps will not make much difference to the person that wants to ignore what they really need to do...properly.

An experienced jumper can err and decide not to use them. An inexperienced jumper does not have them to use, or has the abridged version.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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airtwardo


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99% of people jumping with cameras haven't been trained to do so.



Cite your sourse

My 4th point of contact (ie butt). ;)
Just based on newer jumpers who I chat with who are all running around with GoPros on their helms. I had actually been asking if anyone ran a camera course, or had heard of such a thing.
Lots of people were coaches who started jumping them prior 200 jumps or a C license because they wanted to use the footage to debrief the trainee.

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shattenjager

Exactly! As a coach, one should be able to film the trainee!
IMHO, people who get distracted because the camera, they will be distracted from something else anyway, no matter what activity they are doing, skydiving or not.
Just my 2 cents.



Just your 221 jumps worth of 2 cents? I know that seems like a lot, but revisit this when you have 2210 jumps. I think you'll understand the difference.

To the OP... the attached is for you.....
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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skyjumpenfool

If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



You can tell people what they are doing wrong all day long. When you show them on a TV screen, its like watching a light come on. Ive been teaching and training 20+ years and found out how valuable video feedback was decades ago.
Especially in a high risk adrenaline situation where their memory might be a bit fuzzy.

Personally with the newer smaller digital cameras (google glass anyone?) on the market these days, it doesnt make sense having coach requirements at one level and camera recommendations at another. Raise coach to the level of camera or lower camera to coach, one or the other.
Or remember the camera is just a recommendation and ignore it. YMMV.

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On a different note (since I don't know who to reply to) I wonder why nobody's mentioned the fact that in Australia you only need(?) 100 jumps for a camera.

For a 'nanny state', why are the regulations so vastly different?

For those who push for the 200 jumps so strongly, are you prepared to basically tell the APF that they're doing something wrong, and if so, what is it.

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ianyapxw

On a different note (since I don't know who to reply to) I wonder why nobody's mentioned the fact that in Australia you only need(?) 100 jumps for a camera.

For a 'nanny state', why are the regulations so vastly different?

For those who push for the 200 jumps so strongly, are you prepared to basically tell the APF that they're doing something wrong, and if so, what is it.



In Australia the requirment is a C license, which you need to have 100 jumps to get.

Compare the training requirments of the first 100 jumps between the APF and USPA and maybe you will see that an APF jumper with their C license is probably better off than a USPA jumper with an A and 100 jumps
Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

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hcsvader

***On a different note (since I don't know who to reply to) I wonder why nobody's mentioned the fact that in Australia you only need(?) 100 jumps for a camera.

For a 'nanny state', why are the regulations so vastly different?

For those who push for the 200 jumps so strongly, are you prepared to basically tell the APF that they're doing something wrong, and if so, what is it.



In Australia the requirment is a C license, which you need to have 100 jumps to get.

Compare the training requirments of the first 100 jumps between the APF and USPA and maybe you will see that an APF jumper with their C license is probably better off than a USPA jumper with an A and 100 jumps

Agreed in general.

As time goes on though, I get more frustrated with cameras. I get sick of people screwing around in the door asking if their camera is on, just prior to exit. The vast majority of footage is crap and not worth it.

Camera is amazing when someone jumps with the purpose of filming from OUTSIDE the formation. It has become super trendy to have cameras inside the formation and people just don't think. Do you really want a gopro crammed up against your handles during exit with you outside the plane? I am convinced that is going to cause a fatality at some pointB|
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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hcsvader

Has been a factor in base. Not t he handles obviously, but the go pro did hang onto the PC causing a fatality.



I was watching an OLD vid from '88 last night...B.A.S.E stuff.

WOW! :o

Huge video & Super 8...some even 16mm cameras BOLTED to every kind of helmet conceivable...even full face motorcycle helmets.

Scariest part though...was NickDg with a shaved head! :ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Doug_Davis

***If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



You can tell people what they are doing wrong all day long. When you show them on a TV screen, its like watching a light come on. Ive been teaching and training 20+ years and found out how valuable video feedback was decades ago.
Especially in a high risk adrenaline situation where their memory might be a bit fuzzy.

Personally with the newer smaller digital cameras (google glass anyone?) on the market these days, it doesnt make sense having coach requirements at one level and camera recommendations at another. Raise coach to the level of camera or lower camera to coach, one or the other.
Or remember the camera is just a recommendation and ignore it. YMMV.

From a student about to get their A license I have to agree that having video footage of jumps helps a lot. It may not help everyone, but for me it was night and day. I had both instructors that had video footage of me and instructors that did not. I felt the ones with video footage of me helped me improve and learn much more than ones without. After realizing this I continuously tried to seek out the instructors that would film me so I could learn more and improve.

If filming a student can be done safely and without distraction, I would say it's something that should be done for every student jumper trying to learn.

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back to a discussion you and I had a couple years ago;

How would you feel if USPA added a camera training section to the Coaches Course? I have added it to my own, but it's certainly not standardized.

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As far as cameras being a distraction, is it possible, with the younger generation being use to having their every move being on video, that they just aren't as distracting as it once was when there weren't nearly as many cameras around?

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Doug_Davis

You can tell people what they are doing wrong all day long. When you show them on a TV screen, its like watching a light come on.



No disagreement there.

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Raise coach to the level of camera or lower camera to coach, one or the other.
Or remember the camera is just a recommendation and ignore it. YMMV.



Both of these remarks apply to the USPA, which is a large but not even majority part of the skydiving world.

For example here they are both 200 jumps (coach was brought down from 300 which I disagreed with, but we had a coach shortage), and it's a hard rule, not a recommendation.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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jclalor

As far as cameras being a distraction, is it possible, with the younger generation being use to having their every move being on video, that they just aren't as distracting as it once was when there weren't nearly as many cameras around?



That's not the distraction of concern...it's the person wearing it that can get in trouble multitasking. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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DSE

back to a discussion you and I had a couple years ago;

How would you feel if USPA added a camera training section to the Coaches Course? I have added it to my own, but it's certainly not standardized.



I would envision the home office thinking it would then be looked at as requiring a Coach to be wearing one.- I understand how it could be beneficial...but it sometimes seems that isn't enough.;)

At this point...the whole Coach Rating thing kinda has me scratching my head.

But that's on a personal opinion level that's best saved for a different discussion.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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chuckakers

***If you need a camera to debrief, maybe coaching is not for you. :)



Are you joking?
A surprising number of "coaches" use a camera as a substitute for the ability to observe and remember what happened on the skydive. The camera is a great tool, but if the coach can't remember what happened on the jump without watching the video they just shot, then they aren't qualified to be a coach.

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