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NeoX

When is it OK to make/receive phone calls during a skydive?

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normiss

Prior to a demo exit if the radio to ground fails.
:P



It's really boring flying the flag around for 5,000'. Making a phone call to order pizza delivery on landing...:P:o

Just make sure you've hanged up before you enter the stadium. Cell reception sucks in there.

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Someone should work on an altimeter app. If they could add little pictures of exactly where you should be in your swoop based on your canopy and weight, that'd be even more badass :P

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

Someone should work on an altimeter app. If they could add little pictures of exactly where you should be in your swoop based on your canopy and weight, that'd be even more badass :P

Wendy P.



There already is one. BASELINE for Droid is a terrific tool. It's a visual altimeter, audible, GPS recorder, logger all in one. Users can put in their own sounds for notifications such as "Take off your seatbelt, dummy!"7.00, it's a terrific tool. It also interfaces directly with Paralog

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Thought I'd pipe in here as I have some "mostly relevant" experience, and an opinion.

1) When I used to paraglide, I would bring my phone, connected with my earphones to listen to music. I was up one day having one of my best flights ever. At over 4500ft, my phone started ringing. I initially thought it was the song, but realized that the song had cut out for the ringer. I answered...it was my lawyer telling me that my house sale was complete. It was funny. He asked me if I was busy....I giggled and told him "kind of". I explained a bit later in the call and he laughed and said it was certainly a first.

2) It's interesting to see all the opinions on this, yet the swooping skygods that have their music blaring isn't even a concern. Not to mention the other gadgets that people bring on jumps. Personally, I don't think there's an issue if you're not stupid about it. Don't do it at a boogie with 3 plane fulls landing at the same time. Plan a jump where you pull high, tell the pilot & other jumpers, and have at it. I've made at least one phone call when I was a newer jumper, and I also brought a camera on my 30 or 40th jump, hidden in my jumpsuit. I did a high hop&pop (10k) and took some pictures.

Not being stupid about it also constitutes the following: Don't do it all the time. Don't do it with other people in the air around you. Don't do it in freefall. Do it once you've got a good canopy and have done your checks. Don't do it at a busy dropzone, or on a super busy day. Use a handsfree setup for all kinds of reasons. Plan the jump, let others know the plan. Don't chat all the way to the ground. Make s quick call, tell/show your friends how cool you are and hangup, refocusing on the task at hand.

PS: There's never a "reason" to distract yourself in the air. You do it out of curiosity (like I did), or to show off to your friends/family. It's certainly not the brightest thing to do, and shouldn't be done until you have some experience to understand the risks. That being said, I'd be a hippocrite if I said I didn't do it.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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The most rational and well set out objective reply on the matter. Neither condones nor disapproves of the idea, but puts it into perspective at a more granular level.

I think the problem is that most people just think, mobile phone + skydiving = problem. No rationale behind it, but just driven by the "tabooness" of the very notion, probably because of the media surrounding mobile phones and driving and how the world is becoming very anti-mobile phone (ironically) in many respects, be it teenagers all looking at their phones at a party, the #selfie culture, tweeting this, instagraming that, etc.

However, skydiving can be a dangerous sport if not done safely. Belly flying is probably the safest form of skydiving. If someone says they want to do a tracking skydive, do we say, oh no, that can be dangerous, it's not allowed? No. It's an accepted form of skydiving and ingrained in skydiving culture. Same with wingsuiting and formation skydiving, and BASE jumping!!

All of these things increase the risk of injury/death from belly skydiving by a large order of magnitude. So... does having a quick chat to a mate at 4000-3000ft under canopy using a hands-free headset where you don't even have to touch the phone cause any real increase in danger above all the other things you are "allowed" to do?

I leave that as a homework exercise for you to answer pragmatically, but try to imagine yourself in a world where a wingsuit has just been invented and an earpiece has just been invented through which you can talk to someone under canopy. You are a flat-flyer. Someone offers to give you the wingsuit (ensuring you are trained well in wingsuit flying) or the earpiece (ensuring you are trained well in canopy flying). Which is really more dangerous?

It's worth remembering that on every skydiver's first 7+ jumps, they were chatting to their instructor via an earpiece. Granted this is instruction on canopy control, but I recall some banter with mine when I was doing my AFF, and I imagine someone with 1000 jumps can fly their canopy and talk to someone at the same time without becoming dangerous. But if certain measures are taken as Chris-Ottawa suggested, such as planning the skydive, letting others know, doing it at high altitude only, etc., it can probably mitigate the risk to zero or as near as damnit.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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>So... does having a quick chat to a mate at 4000-3000ft under canopy using a
>hands-free headset where you don't even have to touch the phone cause any real
>increase in danger

Yes. The same rationale has been used to justify POV cameras. "I'm just going to turn it on and forget it! How can that cause any real increase in danger?" Turns out it can - which many people have learned the hard way.

> Someone offers to give you the wingsuit (ensuring you are trained well in
>wingsuit flying) or the earpiece (ensuring you are trained well in canopy flying).
>Which is really more dangerous?

The phone.

>It's worth remembering that on every skydiver's first 7+ jumps, they were
>chatting to their instructor via an earpiece.

No, they were listening to commands. And in such cases the additional distraction is worth the increase in guidance.

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>It's interesting to see all the opinions on this, yet the swooping skygods that have
>their music blaring isn't even a concern.

Who said that? It's definitely a concern. A "swooping skygod" who has his music blaring is not going to hear someone who is screaming at him, about to collide with him. And I have seen more than one such skygod fumbling under canopy to get the right song on, staring down at his ipod.

>Not being stupid about it also constitutes the following: Don't do it all the
>time. Don't do it with other people in the air around you. Don't do it in freefall.

Why not in freefall? Statistically you are less likely to kill someone in freefall, so if there's a place to be distracted, it's there. At most you will kill yourself. (Needless to say not doing it either place would be wisest.)

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normiss

Quote

It's worth remembering that on every skydiver's first 7+ jumps, they were chatting to their instructor via an earpiece.


This is not true of every jumper.
:P


You got THAT right. :D
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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NeoX

The most rational and well set out objective reply on the matter. Neither condones nor disapproves of the idea, but puts it into perspective at a more granular level.

I think the problem is that most people just think, mobile phone + skydiving = problem. No rationale behind it, but just driven by the "tabooness" of the very notion, probably because of the media surrounding mobile phones and driving and how the world is becoming very anti-mobile phone (ironically) in many respects, be it teenagers all looking at their phones at a party, the #selfie culture, tweeting this, instagraming that, etc.

However, skydiving can be a dangerous sport if not done safely. Belly flying is probably the safest form of skydiving. If someone says they want to do a tracking skydive, do we say, oh no, that can be dangerous, it's not allowed? No. It's an accepted form of skydiving and ingrained in skydiving culture. Same with wingsuiting and formation skydiving, and BASE jumping!!

All of these things increase the risk of injury/death from belly skydiving by a large order of magnitude. So... does having a quick chat to a mate at 4000-3000ft under canopy using a hands-free headset where you don't even have to touch the phone cause any real increase in danger above all the other things you are "allowed" to do?

I leave that as a homework exercise for you to answer pragmatically, but try to imagine yourself in a world where a wingsuit has just been invented and an earpiece has just been invented through which you can talk to someone under canopy. You are a flat-flyer. Someone offers to give you the wingsuit (ensuring you are trained well in wingsuit flying) or the earpiece (ensuring you are trained well in canopy flying). Which is really more dangerous?

It's worth remembering that on every skydiver's first 7+ jumps, they were chatting to their instructor via an earpiece. Granted this is instruction on canopy control, but I recall some banter with mine when I was doing my AFF, and I imagine someone with 1000 jumps can fly their canopy and talk to someone at the same time without becoming dangerous. But if certain measures are taken as Chris-Ottawa suggested, such as planning the skydive, letting others know, doing it at high altitude only, etc., it can probably mitigate the risk to zero or as near as damnit.



Jesus Christ, you are talking and talking and talking ...... I think you just love it.

And love to hear yourself "talking" .....:S

Just do it. When you're alone in the sky, do it.

Isn't that exactly what your're expecting to hear?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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billvon

>So... does having a quick chat to a mate at 4000-3000ft under canopy using a
>hands-free headset where you don't even have to touch the phone cause any real
>increase in danger

Yes. The same rationale has been used to justify POV cameras. "I'm just going to turn it on and forget it! How can that cause any real increase in danger?" Turns out it can - which many people have learned the hard way.


Receiving a call on a hands-free Bluetooth headset doesn't require any physical interaction such as reaching and turning it on. So, your analogy doesn't quite work. Out of interest, for novices such as myself, rather than leave me guessing, could you explain what the danger is. I'm assuming it's fumbling for the on switch and then tumbling through the sky or letting go of your toggles under canopy. And please don't have a go at me for asking a question - we all had to learn at some point. Seems you just like to assume all novices should know everything about skydiving and not ask any questions, even ones you feel might be stupid.

billvon

> Someone offers to give you the wingsuit (ensuring you are trained well in
>wingsuit flying) or the earpiece (ensuring you are trained well in canopy flying).
>Which is really more dangerous?

The phone.


Why? Justify.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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Chris-Ottawa

Plan a jump where you pull high, tell the pilot & other jumpers, and have at it.



I'd rather be enjoying the view, carving some clouds. Better yet high pulling with others and doing some formation flying or some CReW. B|

Plus the phone might cause me to spill my beer. :P
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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>Receiving a call on a hands-free Bluetooth headset doesn't require any physical
>interaction such as reaching and turning it on. So, your analogy doesn't quite work.

Oh, it works very well.

Turning on a POV camera just requires one button push before exit, and then you don't have to touch it until you land. No physical interaction at all, right? Yet still people manage to screw up exits, land out, forget chest straps, forget to flare etc because they are messing with the cameras.

So yes, your "hands free" setup will still require hands on occasion - and more importantly, attention.

>Out of interest, for novices such as myself, rather than leave me guessing, could
>you explain what the danger is.

I wrote an article on this for PARACHUTIST a while back. I'll see if I can find it.

>Why? Justify.

Distraction. If you are well trained on a wingsuit you have done the various drills (suiting up, zipping up, unzipping, reaching handles with the suit on etc) over and over and over again, and research has shown that we get better and better at that with training and practice. Not true of handing someone an earpiece and saying "just use this; it's a piece of cake."

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Here's an early draft of the article.
===================
Small-Format Camera Safety
By Bill von Novak

Since skydiving first began as a sport, skydivers have wanted to capture its amazing visuals. Early pioneers used film-based still and movie cameras to let ground observers see what it’s like to jump out of an airplane and freefall over the landscape below.

As cameras improved and video came on the scene, the demand for freefall photography increased. The first jumpable video cameras were two-piece units, a large recorder with a somewhat smaller camera head that the jumper could mount on a helmet. This gave the sport something it had not had before: a way to review a jump almost instantly. Jumpers were able to land and see within minutes how the jump had gone before going up and jumping again. The video camera became a tool to improve performance and determine the validity of records, as well as a method of capturing images for later viewing.
With video came an increase in the number of skydivers jumping with cameras. Unfortunately, it also led to the first camera-related fatality caused by the distraction of extra equipment: In 1988, a jumper carrying a video recorder in a chest-mount harness forgot to put on his rig before making a skydive to video a student. Apparently, the complexity of the camera harness masked the lack of rig from both the jumper and the other people in the plane.

Over the years, video cameras have gotten smaller and smaller as their quality and design have improved. This has reduced the risk of neck injuries and entanglements with equipment and has allowed more skydivers to take up photography. Today, due to video’s instructional value, almost no competition, coached 4-way team jump or big-way event happens without it. And now tandem students can share their videos with friends online, often within just a few hours after jumping.

Recently, consumer electronics companies have introduced very-small-format cameras that have pushed the trend even further. The ContourHD is not much bigger than a tube of toothpaste, and it fits easily on helmets and gloves. And the GoPro not only comes with all the hardware needed for mounting it to helmets, its advertising portrays it as ideal for skydiving.

With all the small and easy-to-use cameras available, it’s tempting for new jumpers to slap one on a helmet and go make a jump. The size seems to make them safer than bigger, bulkier cameras and installation is a snap on most helmets. Their low cost also makes damaging one less of a worry. The rewards seem significant: a video to post on Facebook® to show friends and family, a record of a fun jump and even the potential to learn to fly video and get a job at a DZ videoing tandem and AFF students.

However, as the use of small-format cameras has increased, so have the number of incidents related to their use. While their small size does make them easier to mount, their size does not eliminate snag hazards. More importantly, the primary danger that cameras pose to jumpers—distraction—is as big an issue with small cameras as it is with larger ones.

Small-Camera-Related Incidents

Douglas Spotted Eagle, a cameraman and wingsuit instructor at Skydive Elsinore in California, recently compiled a list of known small-format camera incidents. His list included 34 incidents ranging from very minor problems (funneled skydives and minor freefall collisions) to more serious problems (automatic activation device discharges, malfunctions and broken bones). 21 of the incidents involved jumpers with 200 jumps or less. Of these 21 low-timer incidents, the additional distraction of a camera caused 18 of them at least in part. Jumpers went low because they were trying to “get the shot,” or they overlooked routing their chest straps when setting the cameras up, or they focused more on the cameras than on their canopy flights and landings. Only five of the incidents out of the total of 34 had anything to do with an entanglement.

This reinforces one of the most important facts about flying a camera: a camera will distract you, even if you are determined to just “turn it on and forget it.” Smaller cameras may reduce snag hazards, but they do not make it easier to ignore the distraction posed by flying with a camera.

Even experienced jumpers are not immune to this. In the same incident list, three tandem instructors wearing hand-mounted cameras did not pull their reserve handles after malfunctions because they wanted to get a shot of themselves falling away from their canopies.

In a more tragic example, a skydiver with 150 jumps recently died while videoing a tandem. The videographer was not accustomed to the long “tandem spot” (tandems often exit the aircraft farther away from the drop zone than recreational jumpers do), and she struggled to get back to the DZ landing area, barely clearing a power line before attempting to turn into the wind at about 50 feet to land. The resulting hard landing proved fatal. While this incident was not directly caused by her camera, it is likely that the additional distraction of filming the tandem contributed to her opening at a point that made it difficult for her to reach the drop zone, and that her desire to capture the tandem’s landing contributed to her decision to try to reach the main landing area instead of choosing an alternative area she could reach at a safe altitude.

Learning Camera Skills Correctly

An inexperienced jumper will often think that he can put a camera on his head, forget about it and just “video my own skydive.” But learning camera safely is not as easy as that. Wearing a camera significantly increases the complexity of a jump, and those who wish to do so must have prepared for it and have gained enough experience to do so safely. You can’t just pick up a camera helmet and get on a load.

Having an adequate amount of skydiving experience is critical. Skydiving requires a lot of attention, and newer jumpers do not have much to spare. USPA recommends that a person have 200 jumps before he tries to fly video, and this is a good absolute minimum level of experience. At 200 jumps, skydivers are starting to become familiar with the environment in freefall and under canopy and may have enough experience to start working with cameras (although some jumpers will need more).

If you’d like to learn to fly camera you should also:

• Become proficient at basic body flight (tunnel time can be very helpful with this). Fly with another person and pay particular attention to fall-rate control and side-sliding into position. You need to be able to effortlessly put yourself where you want to be before you start trying to put a camera where you want it to be.

• Choose a subject for video practice. An excellent way to start learning belly-flying video is to film intermediate-level 4-way teams because they present a stable target, are likely to break off at a reliable altitude and will not mind if you mess up occasionally. Avoid new 4-way teams because they often slide around too much; advanced competition teams may put too much pressure on you to “get the shot.”

• Get good at whatever discipline you want to capture on film. If you want to film 4-way teams, learn to perform basic 4-way. If you’d like to video students, get your coach rating. (It’s critical to know how to fly with students before you stick a camera on your head to film them.)

• Find a good local videographer and get his advice on equipment setup, snag prevention, aircraft safety with camera helmets, emergency procedures (for example, consider downwind and water landings with a camera helmet) and flying with camera wings (both in freefall and under canopy).

• Configure your equipment correctly. A releasable camera helmet is a must, and you should be able to operate the camera itself without having to pay much attention to it. Minimize snag points—a line dragged across the helmet from below should not find places it can easily lodge—on any camera, be it helmet, hand or chest mounted.

Using small-format video cameras can be a great way to capture unusual angles and is a relatively inexpensively way to shoot inside or outside video of skydives. They can also provide a good learning tool for new jumpers who want to get into flying video. However, it’s critical that jumpers do this after they have the experience to do so safely, the spare attention needed to deal with the camera, and the training to handle the new equipment and procedures.

About the Author
Bill von Novak, D-16479, made his first jump in 1991. Since then, he's worked as an organizer, an S&TA and a chief instructor and has taught students via static-line, tandem and AFF methods. He has been on three big-way formation skydiving world records and currently works as a videographer at Skydive Perris in California. He lives with his wife, Amy, and son, Liam, in San Diego.


SIDEBAR
The Five Myths of Small Cameras

1) “I’ll just turn it on and forget it.”
The most common misconception that new jumpers have about small cameras is that they will be able to ignore that they have one on. Numerous incidents have demonstrated that fighting the distraction of a camera is not easy for skydivers of any experience level to do. The fact is, wearing a camera adds complexity to any skydive, and it is crucial for camera jumpers to have enough experience to handle that.

2) “Since I don’t have a big, bulky camera, I don’t have to worry about snag hazards.”
There are two misconceptions in this phrase. The first is that smaller devices have fewer snag hazards. This is not the case: A GoPro with a standard mount, for example, poses significant snag hazards and will not release under the stress of a trapped line or bridle. In addition, since jumpers often use small cameras on unmodified helmets, the helmets do not generally have a quick-release feature to help deal with entanglements. The second misconception is that snag hazards are the most significant problem for new jumpers using cameras. Distraction causes most small-format camera incidents, not the risk of a snag.

3) “I will just use it to video my solos and regular jumps so I can become a better skydiver.”
The video that results from attaching a camera to a skydiver and having it record what’s in front of him is not all that useful for personal training purposes since there is no reference point. This type of video will generally just show people sliding by or record a tilting horizon and won’t give any indication of what the camera flyer is doing. Video can certainly be a useful tool to debrief the skydivers being filmed, but this requires a camera flyer to have the skills necessary to video other people in freefall.

4) “For practice, I’ll just follow tandems (or AFF) students out and stay far away.”
Student jumps are among the most dangerous jumps to film due to the unpredictability of the student, the attendant fall-rate changes and the potential for early deployments. New camera flyers should never jump with a student—even if they will stay far away—without getting the explicit approval of the chief instructor of the school first.

5) “I’m progressing faster than average skydivers, and my camera is very small, so I’ll be ready for it sooner.”
The 200 jump recommendation is an absolute minimum. People who have 200 jumps are not automatically ready to fly camera, they merely have enough experience that they may be ready. Not everyone will be ready to start flying camera at 200 jumps, and even those who are ready will need some practice before they are safe videographers.

SIDEBAR 2

Tandem manufacturers require the following experience before skydivers start videoing tandems:
- 500 relative work jumps, 100 camera jumps and have made at least 100 jumps in the previous year
OR
- 300 jumps and have passed the air skills portion of a USPA Coach Course.

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OK, cool. Good article about cameras physically strapped to your body and used throughout the entire skydive. But we're talking about a hands-free phone call to an earpiece while under canopy here. I agree there is some overlap, but that is minimal at best. Snagging - no issue. Distraction - yes, some issues. What, though? Let's see, using your article as a reference...

  • Trying to "get the shot" - I can't think of an equivalent in a phone call. Trying to "get the call"? Nah.

  • Forgot to switch on - well, a camera not switched on means a video of that jump will be lost forever. A phone or headset not switched on means what? You won't receive calls for the next few minutes. Big deal. Nothing lost. Not something anyone in their right mind would fumble with for a sake of missing that all-important call that can't wait a few minutes. Especially when the caller can text or leave a voicemail. Of course, there's the "planned" phone call to a mate while in the sky. And that might result in someone fumbling to switch on their phone or headset. I agree that could be as dangerous as a camera, but 1) such people are stupid and subject to the Darwin Principle, 2) no more dangerous than fumbling to switch on an 'off' camera (which are allowed).


  • Other than the "planned" phone call situation, I can't see any other congruence with the camera dangers. Also, on your own arguments against mobile phones, why don't we disallow cameras then?

    Or, perhaps we should impose a minimum number of jumps before phone calls are allowed, just like with cameras. Or maybe even have a mobile phone skydiving course, call it TS1 (Telephone Skydiving 1).
    He's doing his Superman thing.

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    It's not that different from driving and talking on the phone, except that skydiving is faster, and doesn't last for as long.

    Why does it matter? When you're talking with someone who's in the car with you, they have some sense of what the traffic is doing, and they tend to shut up when things are exciting. When they're on the phone, they don't. They Are a more distracting force because of this.

    Yeah, kids don't understand traffic, but you can ignore kids when you have to :)
    Wendy P.

    There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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    wmw999

    Someone should work on an altimeter app. If they could add little pictures of exactly where you should be in your swoop based on your canopy and weight, that'd be even more badass :P

    Wendy P.



    Phone GPS isn't accurate enough. I've run a GPS logger through several of my skydiving days and it loses 1/3rd to 1/2 of most of my skydives. It can't even keep a GPS lock on a high pull, which is pretty damn sad if you ask me.

    Someone sent me a bunch of flysight files, those are much better. I didn't see a single lost point in about 30 of his jumps.
    I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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    Hey man,

    I hate to say this as it drives me crazy too, but I'm not sure you're understanding what people are writing. They responded to your questions very clearly, and you're kind of blowing them off. It simply shows that you truly don't understand the risk. I'm going to explain it a little simpler here.

    "Forgot to turn on the camera" - Ok, there's no button to turn on your phone because it's generally always on. But what if you forgot to put your bluetooth earpiece in your pocket because it was uncomfortable for the plane ride up. This "distracts" you from the task at hand. Now you're thinking, shit, I have to pull higher to give me time to get that in before I can make a call. Then...bam...you've got a spinning mal that you weren't prepared for/expecting. Fact is, you can easily be caught off guard.

    Another form of distraction is the fact that you've gotta remember who you're going to call, what you're doing on the jump, what if they're not there, then who are you going to call. You're thinking about these things instead of thinking about the jump. You're distracted.

    I know you believe that you won't be distracted, but that's also why people die every day from distracted driving. The fact is you don't understand the risk and your posts show this.

    Here's another example. You go up, deploy at 10 grand to ensure you have enough time to make the call and whatnot. Awesome, you're talking to your best bud telling him how cool you are, then you hang up and guess what? You can't see the dropzone. Now your only option to land is in a busy downtown corridor because you talked until you were at 3000ft. now you've got 80 jumps and you're doing a demo into a busy downtown street landing with powerlines, cars, people etc.

    Distracted doesn't necessarily mean you're going to forget to pull or you're going to mess up, but the fact is, you will be focused on making sure you can make that call.

    I know you're already planning to do this, or have already and probably got some heat for it at the DZ, but you should read into the above posters a little more as the posts are helpful. If you want some genuine advice? Don't post this shit on dz.com as you'll just get flack. Talk to your instructor, and if they think you can pull it off reasonably safely, they'll give you some things to watch for, help you plan the jump and have at it. You probably came here looking for defence against your instructor that told you not to do it...they probably said that for a reason.

    One important detail...when I said to pull high...I didn't mean 3 or 4 thousand feet. I meant deploy right at exit. 15k, 13k whatever. That being said, these types of jumps have important considerations on their own, without the introduction of a phone call. You don't know what you don't know...Talk to your instructors.
    "When once you have tasted flight..."

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