Chinese spy balloon over USA

[ryoder 1,381]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

Exactly.  

During the 1950's and 1960's a lot of high performance jets were getting high in the stratosphere by climbing as hard and as fast as they could, then coasting through the top of the arc.  Actually not coasting, their engines were still running, but they had to throttle back significantly to avoid compressor stalls.   They were well within the 'coffin corner' at that altitude - had they tried to level out, their aircraft would have stalled, so they had to keep angle of attack (and lift) low to coast back down to denser air. 

That is NOT a good flight regime to be in when you are trying to aim at something.  You basically get one chance for the few seconds when your nose is dropping past the balloon.

I was once reading a book written by one of the U2 pilots describing attempts by Russian fighters to reach the U2. He described a technique of them going full throttle in level flight, then pulling up hard and "going ballistic" in an attempt to get within weapons range of the U2 as their engine flamed out.

Edited February 6, 2023 by ryoder

[JoeWeber 2,297]

11 minutes ago, billvon said:

Exactly.  

During the 1950's and 1960's a lot of high performance jets were getting high in the stratosphere by climbing as hard and as fast as they could, then coasting through the top of the arc.  Actually not coasting, their engines were still running, but they had to throttle back significantly to avoid compressor stalls.   They were well within the 'coffin corner' at that altitude - had they tried to level out, their aircraft would have stalled, so they had to keep angle of attack (and lift) low to coast back down to denser air. 

That is NOT a good flight regime to be in when you are trying to aim at something.  You basically get one chance for the few seconds when your nose is dropping past the balloon.

Have you not yet watched Top Gun Maverick? Do some research.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

14 hours ago, billvon said:

Yeah, but he intentionally overlooked them.  It was a very smart thing for him to do; he's smarter than our generals you know.  No one ignores Chinese spy satellites better than Trump.

Hi Bill,

I was just reading this:  Biden admin offers to brief Trump officials on past Chinese spy balloon incursions - POLITICO

In it:  The offer, described by senior Biden administration officials on Sunday night, comes as former President Donald Trump and senior members of his national security team say they were never briefed on such an incursion by a Beijing-sent aircraft.

One has to think about what they did read; would the comics count?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  And this should make it interesting:  Greene calls for probe into why Trump was unaware of previous Chinese balloons | The Hill

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by JerryBaumchen

[brenthutch 383]

2 hours ago, ryoder said:

Post #34, at 4:20 he already addressed the idea of using 20mm rounds:

 

A pair of F15s could have engaged with altitude to spare and poked 2000 20mm holes in the thing.  I think the AF just wanted to show off a bit.

BTW there is a difference between service ceiling and max altitude, that being 65,000 ft and 98,000 feet respectively. The F-15 can operate comfortably at 60k.

Edited February 6, 2023 by brenthutch

[billvon 2,396]

49 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

PS)  And this should make it interesting:  Greene calls for probe into why Trump was unaware of previous Chinese balloons | The Hill

One wonders whether MTG informed Trump of the secret Jewish space lasers she discovered.

But in any case republicans will investigate to see if they can find a democrat to blame.  If they find a republican, they will drop it immediately, then claim they 1) never called for a probe, 2) OK they called for a probe but they really meant to save the children from drag queens and 3) Obama did it first.

[billvon 2,396]

14 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

A pair of F15s could have engaged with altitude to spare and poked 2000 20mm holes in the thing.

Cool that you've gone from being a business expert to a climate expert to a gas stove expert to a balloon expert.  Must be hard to live with all the riffraff who cannot become instant Facebook experts.

[jakee 1,254]

17 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

A pair of F15s could have engaged with altitude to spare and poked 2000 20mm holes in the thing.  I think the AF just wanted to show off a bit.

Or they didn’t want to spray 2000 rounds of ammo into a massive circle of ocean that might have boats in it.

18 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

BTW there is a difference between service ceiling and max altitude, that being 65,000 ft and 98,000 feet respectively. The F-15 can operate comfortably at 60k.

That was a preproduction dedicated record setting airframe that absolutely did not have any armament fitted, and likely no ability to install any.

[ryoder 1,381]

8 minutes ago, jakee said:

Or they didn’t want to spray 2000 rounds of ammo into a massive circle of ocean that might have boats in it.

That was a preproduction dedicated record setting airframe that absolutely did not have any armament fitted, and likely no ability to install any.

Interesting article about the F-15 Streak Eagle:

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/streak-eagle/

Streak Eagle carried only enough fuel for each specific flight. It was secured to the hold-back device on the runway and the engines were run up to full afterburner. It was released from the hold-back and was airborne in just three seconds.

When the F-15 reached 428 knots (793.4 kilometers per hour), the pilot pulled up into an Immelmann turn, holding 2.5 Gs. Streak Eagle would arrive back over the air base in level flight at about 32,000 feet (9,754 meters), but upside down. Rolling right side up, Streak Eagle continued accelerating to Mach 1.5 while climbing through 36,000 feet (10,973 meters). It would then accelerate to Mach 2.2 and the pilot would pull the fighter up at 4.0 Gs until it reached a 60° climb angle. He held 60° until he had to shut down the engines to prevent them from overheating in the thin high-altitude atmosphere.

After reaching a peak altitude and slowing to just 55 knots (63 miles per hour, 102 kilometers per hour), the airplane was pushed over into a 55° dive. Once it was below 55,000 feet (16,764 meters) the engines would be restarted and Streak Eagle returned to land at Grand Forks.

 

Holy shit! I'm surprised the pitch control still worked at that speed!

I was practicing short field landings one day, and discovered a C-152 could lose pitch control before it stalled. Thank goodness the instructor was with me!!!

[billvon 2,396]

5 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Holy shit! I'm surprised the pitch control still worked at that speed!

There's a story in the Right Stuff about what happens when you cross that altitude and aren't prepared for the loss of aerodynamic control.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

A pair of F15s could have engaged with altitude to spare and poked 2000 20mm holes in the thing.

Nothing gives a chubby like the rat-a-tat-tat of automatic weapons fire, right?

 

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I think the AF just wanted to show off a bit.

Finally, if still obliviously, you're able to articulate the mind set behind gun stroking.

 

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

BTW there is a difference between service ceiling and max altitude, that being 65,000 ft and 98,000 feet respectively. The F-15 can operate comfortably at 60k.

Have you ever been in an aircraft of any type in any seat that had a forward view and you weren't a passenger? No? Thanks, but we can all Google when we need to pretend we're as smart as Bill, too.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by JoeWeber

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

20 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Nothing gives a chubby like the rat-a-tat-tat of automatic weapons fire, right?

Hi Joe,

Right up there with:  The Smell of Napalm In the Morning - Apocalypse Now (4/8) Movie CLIP (1979) HD - Bing video

Jerry Baumchen

[kallend 1,623]

4 hours ago, ryoder said:

I was once reading a book written by one of the U2 pilots describing attempts by Russian fighters to reach the U2. He described a technique of them going full throttle in level flight, then pulling up hard and "going ballistic" in an attempt to get within weapons range of the U2 as their engine flamed out.

Only plane ever to successfully intercept a U2 at altitude was a BAC Lightning during NATO exercises.

In 1984 Mike Hale of 11 Sqd RAF Binbrook flying XR729 attempted an intercept of a U2 at 66,000ft, he caught up with it and passed in a zoom climb, peaking at 88,000ft before turning into a attack position

Previously 11 Sqd had taken part in competitive exercised against US F104 Starfighters at Albourg Denmark in various categories the Lightings out performed the 104s in every class except low level supersonic which was a dead heat

The Lighting was also the only interceptor ever to catch Concorde at speed/altitude; F104s. F16, F14 and F15 tried and failed.

Just because a fighter's service ceiling is X0,000 ft doesn't mean it has much capability at that altitude.

Edited February 7, 2023 by kallend

[billvon 2,396]

22 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Bottom line ... The Spy Balloon was allowed to complete it's mission before the President had it shot down...The next one has a nuke....

And complete three missions under Trump - and he never even noticed.

Well, I guess China pays him millions to not notice such things.  Cha-ching!

[gowlerk 1,907]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Even more hilarious, the party balloon was popped by our vaunted $200,000,000 F-22 for it's first air-to-air kill. That's even funnier than our spectacular $90,000,000 F-35 which is on the scoreboard with 2 unmanned drones. 

That what air superiority does. No one will come after you if you own the sky.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That what air superiority does. No one will come after you if you own the sky.

Or the frozen rivers.

 

[brenthutch 383]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

Or they didn’t want to spray 2000 rounds of ammo into a massive circle of ocean that might have boats in it.

 

No, but they were cool with a few tones of debris into that same “massive circle”

[ryoder 1,381]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

And complete three missions under Trump - and he never even noticed.

Well, I guess China pays him millions to not notice such things.  Cha-ching!

Well, to be fair:

 

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

No, but they were cool with a few tones of debris into that same “massive circle”

Lol, no. Absolutely not that same circle.

How many guns do you own and still don’t know how far bullets can go when you fire them upwards? 

[jakee 1,254]

11 hours ago, kallend said:

Previously 11 Sqd had taken part in competitive exercised against US F104 Starfighters at Albourg Denmark in various categories the Lightings out performed the 104s in every class except low level supersonic which was a dead heat

Stripped down Starfighters did set a number of performance records the Lightning couldn’t match. However the real win for the Lightning was that (despite being designed as a pure missile armed bomber interceptor) it was highly manoeuvrable and handled like a dream. EE designers had realised early in the process that a high T-tail design that the Starfighter went with was extremely problematic.

By contrast the Starfighter managed to combine the two traits of having the turning circle of an oil tanker while also being a total psychopath, constantly balanced on the edge of actively attempting to snap out of control and kill you.

The Luttwaffe’s chief test pilot evaluated the F104 and said it was unfit for service in any role, recommended the Blackburn Buccaneer as a strike aircraft and Lightning as an interceptor. Luftwaffe command kept him quiet as the decision had already been made to purchase F104s for political reasons.

[Stumpy 256]

35 minutes ago, jakee said:

recommended the Blackburn Buccaneer as a strike aircraft and Lightning as an interceptor.

I remember hearing stories about how good the Buccaneer was and (almost certainly exaggerated) stories about another plane being on a low level run and finding out there was a buccaneer basically underneath them.

[jakee 1,254]

10 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

I remember hearing stories about how good the Buccaneer was and (almost certainly exaggerated) stories about another plane being on a low level run and finding out there was a buccaneer basically underneath them.

Hehe yeah. Lots of stories about Buccaneer pilots getting nosebleeds any time they went over 50ft 

[kallend 1,623]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

Stripped down Starfighters did set a number of performance records the Lightning couldn’t match. However the real win for the Lightning was that (despite being designed as a pure missile armed bomber interceptor) it was highly manoeuvrable and handled like a dream. EE designers had realised early in the process that a high T-tail design that the Starfighter went with was extremely problematic.

By contrast the Starfighter managed to combine the two traits of having the turning circle of an oil tanker while also being a total psychopath, constantly balanced on the edge of actively attempting to snap out of control and kill you.

The Luttwaffe’s chief test pilot evaluated the F104 and said it was unfit for service in any role, recommended the Blackburn Buccaneer as a strike aircraft and Lightning as an interceptor. Luftwaffe command kept him quiet as the decision had already been made to purchase F104s for political reasons.

Starfighter's high tail was to deal with inertia coupling between the roll and yaw axes which causes instability at high speed.  The downside is that it increases structural requirements on the vertical stab (and hence weight).  It proved ineffective in Vietnam against MiGs in  dogfights due to its poor turning radius and ended up being used almost exclusively as a ground attack aircraft - a real waste of its high speed performance.  Despite good export sales (many due to bribery) it was not a successful warplane and killed a lot of its pilots.

[jakee 1,254]

8 minutes ago, kallend said:

The downside is that it increases structural requirements on the vertical stab (and hence weight). 

And that high AoA caused loss of control and further uncommanded pitch up as the tail surfaces encountered turbulence from the wings. On an aircraft with extremely small and heavily loaded wings it was unforgiving of speed mismanagement on landing or engine trouble on takeoff - which it was also prone to. Combine that with downward firing ejection seats on the early models…

Edited February 7, 2023 by jakee

[kallend 1,623]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

And that high AoA caused loss of control and further uncommanded pitch up as the tail surfaces encountered turbulence from the wings. On an aircraft with extremely small and heavily loaded wings it was unforgiving of speed mismanagement on landing or engine trouble on takeoff - which it was also prone to. Combine that with downward firing ejection seats on the early models…

Lockheed executives admitted paying millions in bribes over more than a decade to the Dutch (Prince Bernhard, husband of Queen Juliana, in particular), to key Japanese and West German politicians, to Italian officials and generals, and to other highly placed figures from Hong Kong to Saudi Arabia.  The planes involved in the bribery were mostly F-104, but also some L-1011 and C-130.  The F-104 had a high "cool" factor** but was an ineffective warplane.

 

** I even have two R/C models

[jakee 1,254]

20 minutes ago, kallend said:

Lockheed executives admitted paying millions in bribes over more than a decade to the Dutch (Prince Bernhard, husband of Queen Juliana, in particular), to key Japanese and West German politicians, to Italian officials and generals, and to other highly placed figures from Hong Kong to Saudi Arabia. 

To be fair, name a major multinational arms deal that didn’t involve bribery. BAESystems has bribed the Saudis alone billions to sell them Tornados, Typhoons, Hawk trainers, radar systems and airbase infrastructure. The UK certainly bribed them to buy Lightnings in the ‘60s too.

AgustaWestland bribed Indian officials with tens of millions of dollars for a helicopter deal then lost the money and the contracts when the Indian government changed and the bribery was exposed.

Edited February 7, 2023 by jakee