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JoeWeber

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19 minutes ago, grimmie said:

Agree. Poor applicants, poor training, bad pay. Some U.S. police train for just a few weeks, in some countries they train for years Like the old saw. You can pay me now or pay me later. Alienation of mistrust of LEO because of bad interactions by inept and poorly trained police. Leads to injury and death all around.

10 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Kind of like teachers -- we want to pay the least for the minimum "meets requirements." And it shows. Freedom isn't free, neither are good service workers -- and teachers, fire fighters, and police really ought to be good. And they're all public servants.

Wendy P.

Agree. I don't know what kind of training the Memphis officers had. But when a suspect in in the grasp of an officer and resisting. You use an armlock or trip to bring him to the ground. Then its hands behind the back into cuffs. None of the officers seem to had that in mind. On either the first stop or the second.

As soon as they are in cuffs its over.

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50 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

According to the WP there were 1110 civilians killed by police in the US over the last 12 months.Graph of killings by ethnicity.

Perhaps the answer is that police unions are required to carry insurance for misconduct by their members. With a flat subsidy to cover that cost and independent oversight of complaints of course.

Police unions and police violence — and what to do about it "Limits on when police can use force is a better solution than banning police unions" a WP article

Except that we'll be pay their insurance premiums as well as the civil settlement.

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49 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Kind of like teachers -- we want to pay the least for the minimum "meets requirements." And it shows. Freedom isn't free, neither are good service workers -- and teachers, fire fighters, and police really ought to be good. And they're all public servants.

Wendy P.

Right. 

How many of the 'Back the Blue' or "Blue Lives MATTER!!!" crowd are willing to pay higher taxes?

I just paid my annual property taxes last week. The Assistant City Clerk is a friend, and she and I always chat just a bit.
She sort of complains how unhappy people are to pay the taxes, and she always laughs when I'm not.

I've always said:
My garbage gets picked up every week. The snow is plowed.
And, most importantly, if I dial 911, the cops & fire trucks are there in about 3 minutes. 

That stuff costs money.

I wouldn't be thrilled to pay more, but if necessary, I'd be willing.

I guess that makes me one of those dirty 'Socialists'.

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48 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Except that we'll be pay their insurance premiums as well as the civil settlement.

Better pay will attract better people. Basic free market capitalism. Along with accountability there needs to be compensation for what is for the most part a shitty often thankless frustrating job with lots of soul destroying night shift work. There seem to be two very different problems in behavior happening. One is being trigger happy, which given the odds that people in the US are armed is somewhat understandable. The other is the feeling that it is okay to beat the living shit out of people who piss them off. That one has always been the case everywhere, and for the most part the system has always agreed to accept it. Only now that video of the beatings are sometimes made public is pressure for change coming. Lawsuits with big payouts and officers going to jail are going force big changes. And society will soon learn that law enforcement will still be effective without the egregious violence.

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On 1/28/2023 at 3:22 PM, Phil1111 said:

Disagree, LEO unions exist in every other country in the world. Every city. Perhaps its the culture?

I think in the US specifically public fetishisation of the police is one of the big enablers. Historically the police have had no incentive to clamp down on brutality because in the land of the free the majority of the population has always found a reason to approve of cops beating down an unarmed man. Even in this case there will be plenty saying he brought it on himself by running.

 

Unions and very strong employment contracts don’t help but as you say they’re an issue all over the place. In the scandal wracked Metropolitan Police (London) right now the chief has admitted that there are violent and predatory officers on desk duty because they can’t be trusted to interact with the public… who he’s not allowed to fire.

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1 hour ago, jakee said:

I think in the US specifically public fetishisation of the police is one of the big enablers.

The Winnipeg police, and the fire service as well both have unions that are thought by most citizens to be too powerful in advocating for members who should be disciplined. 

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8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The Winnipeg police, and the fire service as well both have unions that are thought by most citizens to be too powerful in advocating for members who should be disciplined. 

Hi Ken,

I went to work for the federal gov't. in 1969.  I was hired, worked & retired under the Civil Service Retirement System ( CSRS ).  During Pres. Reagan's first term in office, Congress passed legislation for a replacement system, the Federal Employees Retirement System ( FERS ).  All new hires were under FERS.  Both CSRS & FERS employees worked along side of each other without any problems.

I suggest that these local gov'ts do the same; new hires under a new system with no union recognized.  The existing employees get to keep their union representation.

Eventually, the cities, counties, and states will gain control over their employees.

Jerry Baumchen

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21 hours ago, billvon said:

Agreed.  I think that's happening in the public arena as well; I still haven't heard the "Nichols was no choir boy!" talking point that we used to see so regularly.

That’s because that is for when white cops kill black people. Now that they were black cops the narrative is more along:

If they weren’t forced to hire black cops this wouldn’t have happened. 
 

 

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On 1/28/2023 at 1:48 AM, Faicon9493 said:

I have a grandson who will be learning to drive in a few months. You can bet that between me and his dad, he's going to get some vital information that won't be covered in his drivers education class.

Curious to know what information.

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27 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Curious to know what information.

Stuff like keep both hands on the top of the steering wheel as the cops approach, smile non-stop, say Yes, Officer after every question, and lay still on the ground while you are being beaten, that sort of thing would be my guess.

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25 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Curious to know what information.

Joe beat me to it, while I was composing this.

 

I'm going to guess it's something along the lines of 'how not to antagonize a cop during a traffic stop'.

It's something a LOT of people are not super aware of.

My ex-wife came home from work one night (she worked 2nd shift, finished at 11), rather pissed off. 
She had gotten pulled over, and as the cop got up to her window, she reached into her purse for her wallet. The cop didn't like the quick movement towards a 'hidden area' (inside the purse) and yelled at her to 'keep your hands where I can see them'. 
She didn't like that he yelled at her. I tried to explain that:
1 - Traffic stops are the 2nd most dangerous thing for a cop to do (responding to a domestic disturbance is 1st).
2 - He has no clue who she is or what she may have done in the last 5 minutes that would make her desperate enough to try to harm him. Yes, running the plate gives the owner's name, but what if she had recently stolen the car, and used it in an armed robbery that hadn't been reported yet because nobody had found the body of the convenience store clerk yet. Not super likely, but it's happened more than once.

She wasn't super happy with that explanation, but said she'd hold still if she got pulled over again.

Turned out she had a headlight out. No big deal.

The last time I got pulled over (headlight), I did a few of the 'standard good behavior' things.

Turned off the main street with no parking onto a side street where there's less traffic. 
Turned on my interior lights (it was after dark) so the cop could easily see that I was alone in the car.
Didn't dig anything out between stopping and her coming up to the window (cops don't like to see 'furtive movement' when they are walking up).
When asked for my license, said it was in my back pocket and asked permission to reach for it.
When asked for registration and proof of insurance, said it was in the glove box and asked for permission to reach for it.

In both cases, even with permission to reach, moved slowly & deliberately. When I opened the glove box, I pushed the button and let if fall open, waiting a second for her to be able to see before I reached into it.

All of this is standard "How Not To Appear To Be A Threat". 

But not everyone knows it. 

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3 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

Plus, you could do all of that and they could still beat you to death for no reason.

Yup.


But as an adult white male, that's a lot less likely.

In fact, it's a lot less likely even if I don't do any of the 'don't appear to be a threat' stuff.

My ex was super stupid. What she did could easily get a young black male killed.

She just got yelled at a very little bit and got a 'fix it' warning.

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9 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

Plus, you could do all of that and they could still beat you to death for no reason.

They could...but not very likely.  

I remember my father telling me when I got my license what I should and shouldn't do if pulled over.  

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4 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Joe beat me to it, while I was composing this.

 

I'm going to guess it's something along the lines of 'how not to antagonize a cop during a traffic stop'.

It's something a LOT of people are not super aware of.

My ex-wife came home from work one night (she worked 2nd shift, finished at 11), rather pissed off. 
She had gotten pulled over, and as the cop got up to her window, she reached into her purse for her wallet. The cop didn't like the quick movement towards a 'hidden area' (inside the purse) and yelled at her to 'keep your hands where I can see them'. 
She didn't like that he yelled at her. I tried to explain that:
1 - Traffic stops are the 2nd most dangerous thing for a cop to do (responding to a domestic disturbance is 1st).
2 - He has no clue who she is or what she may have done in the last 5 minutes that would make her desperate enough to try to harm him. Yes, running the plate gives the owner's name, but what if she had recently stolen the car, and used it in an armed robbery that hadn't been reported yet because nobody had found the body of the convenience store clerk yet. Not super likely, but it's happened more than once.

She wasn't super happy with that explanation, but said she'd hold still if she got pulled over again.

Turned out she had a headlight out. No big deal.

The last time I got pulled over (headlight), I did a few of the 'standard good behavior' things.

Turned off the main street with no parking onto a side street where there's less traffic. 
Turned on my interior lights (it was after dark) so the cop could easily see that I was alone in the car.
Didn't dig anything out between stopping and her coming up to the window (cops don't like to see 'furtive movement' when they are walking up).
When asked for my license, said it was in my back pocket and asked permission to reach for it.
When asked for registration and proof of insurance, said it was in the glove box and asked for permission to reach for it.

In both cases, even with permission to reach, moved slowly & deliberately. When I opened the glove box, I pushed the button and let if fall open, waiting a second for her to be able to see before I reached into it.

All of this is standard "How Not To Appear To Be A Threat". 

But not everyone knows it. 

Declaring my weapon and it's location was always a good move as well.;) 

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It's likely relevant that police in the US require an average of only 21 weeks of training before they are put out on the street or in a squad car.  This is significantly less than every other developed country.  Many countries require applicants to have a college degree, but in the US you're fine with high school or equivalent.  It's curious to me that you can't count out pills in a pharmacy without a 4 year degree (and not an easy degree either), or work as a bank teller without a business degree, but you can be empowered to use lethal force with just 21 weeks of "training". 

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21 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

It's likely relevant that police in the US require an average of only 21 weeks of training before they are put out on the street or in a squad car.  This is significantly less than every other developed country.  Many countries require applicants to have a college degree, but in the US you're fine with high school or equivalent.  It's curious to me that you can't count out pills in a pharmacy without a 4 year degree (and not an easy degree either), or work as a bank teller without a business degree, but you can be empowered to use lethal force with just 21 weeks of "training". 

There it is. In most parts of the country police work pays well, very well. Sure there is shift work but there is shift work everywhere. The bottom line is that it is just too damn easy to get a badge and a gun in America. Either that is enough to bring out the worst in some or some already had the worst in them. If we need to pay more then let's pay more but not under the current rules. Let's require real academy training spanning years that includes lot's of supervised trainee time on the street without a gun. And let's have genuine accountability.

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19 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

There it is. In most parts of the country police work pays well, very well. Sure there is shift work but there is shift work everywhere. The bottom line is that it is just too damn easy to get a badge and a gun in America. Either that is enough to bring out the worst in some or some already had the worst in them. If we need to pay more then let's pay more but not under the current rules. Let's require real academy training spanning years that includes lot's of supervised trainee time on the street without a gun. And let's have genuine accountability.

Likely would be less expensive in the long run, but the upfront costs and the resistance to any kind of transition are likely to stop any moves in that direction dead in their tracks.  I hate to be the guy who shits on what is an obviously good idea just to say 'It'll never work', but colour me skeptical.  

 

I've long had the thought that there are 3 general types of people who get into law enforcement: Those who see it as a calling, those who see it as just a career like any other, and those with a big-ass chip on their shoulder who see it as an opportunity to get a badge and get the respect that they feel deprived of in other parts of life.

It's a generalization and oversimplification for sure, but I think there's some truth to it and I worry about the percentage of cops behind door #3.

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I'm sure this is beating a dead horse (or driver), but I was curious about the comparison between becoming a licensed barber vs police officer in Georgia, the state I live in.

Barber: 

1. Graduate from a 1500 hour Georgia Barber Training Program

2. Pass National Theory and Georgia State Practical Licensing Exam

3. Submit a Georgia Master Barber license application to the board

4. Explore your career options and keep your license current

Police officer (basic):

Basic Police Officer training program highlights:

Length of Program: 11 weeks

Non-refundable tuition: $3,093

Note that 1500 hours is 37 weeks (assuming 40 hrs/wk).  So 37 hrs of training plus a national and a state exam to cut hair.  11 weeks of training to carry a firearm and make split second life and death decisions.  WTF????

What about becoming a licensed farrier in Georgia? (For those who don't know, a farrier trims horses hoofs, puts on horseshoes, basically anything around foot care for horses.)  he only way to become a licensed farrier in Georgia is to complete a 4 year apprenticeship with an Approved Training Farrier.  4 years vs 11 weeks!!!

Policing is (or should be) a profession, and it should be treated as one.  Police officers need to know a myriad of subjects, not the least of which is the law (including constitutional law), psychology (especially how to deal with people with psychiatric issues, but also normal but angry or frightened people), sociology, self defense, marksmanship (hopefully rarely used), and on and on.  Plenty of material for a 4 year degree, or at a minimum 2 years of community college.  Of course then you have to pay them as professionals, but you can also demand a professional standard of performance.

 

 

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1 hour ago, lippy said:

Likely would be less expensive in the long run, but the upfront costs and the resistance to any kind of transition are likely to stop any moves in that direction dead in their tracks.  I hate to be the guy who shits on what is an obviously good idea just to say 'It'll never work', but colour me skeptical.  

 

I've long had the thought that there are 3 general types of people who get into law enforcement: Those who see it as a calling, those who see it as just a career like any other, and those with a big-ass chip on their shoulder who see it as an opportunity to get a badge and get the respect that they feel deprived of in other parts of life.

It's a generalization and oversimplification for sure, but I think there's some truth to it and I worry about the percentage of cops behind door #3.

The only difference between the cops and the criminals, too often, is the badge. You should worry about door #3 for a couple of reasons. Number one is you are right and being right, these days, is a problem. Number two, young nipper, is that all I need to do is come up with good ideas (most at a highly discounted rate), you on the other hand will be paying for them and will do all of the suffering if they are actually dumb ideas. Have a wonderful evening.

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(edited)
6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

There it is. In most parts of the country police work pays well, very well.

It pays a reasonable working class wage. Not nearly enough for the level of stress IMO. Similar to truck driving.

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/police-officer-salary

Edited by gowlerk

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3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It pays a reasonable working class wage. Not nearly enough for the level of stress IMO. Similar to truck driving.

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/police-officer-salary

Sure, if that's your comparison. But $60K-80K starting plus benefits and job security plus a pension after 20 years and the ability at 45 years old to take a second cop job for a second pension is a real thing. No, it's not like truck driving. 

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15 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Sure, if that's your comparison. But $60K-80K starting plus benefits and job security plus a pension after 20 years and the ability at 45 years old to take a second cop job for a second pension is a real thing. No, it's not like truck driving. 

Hi Joe,

It also does not include the fact that most of them pad their overtime in their last year of work to get a VERY much larger retirement.

It is what it is.

Jerry Baumchen

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