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JoeWeber

Tyre Nichols

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We need to stop dancing around this, too. This happens because the Police have no fear. They have no fear because of the strength of their unions. It should be obvious to everyone that this is a place where combining public service and collective bargaining, in America, isn't working.

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(edited)

This is the problem those bodycams were supposed were supposed to fix. I still remember the Georgia policeman who, in 2016, recorded himself saying to a white female driver, "Don't be afraid. We only kill black people." I have a grandson who will be learning to drive in a few months. You can bet that between me and his dad, he's going to get some vital information that won't be covered in his drivers education class.

Edited by Faicon9493

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The cops involved have all been fired and are facing charges.

The 2 Sheriff's deputies who were on the scene have been suspended pending investigation.

The bodycam footage is a huge part of that happening.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a LOOOOONG way to go.

But it's progress.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

....But it's progress.

Disagree. Rodney King beating, after shooting, after beating. No change is anywhere on the horizon.

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

...Don't get me wrong, there's still a LOOOOONG way to go....

Agree. About as far as gun control in the US.

12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

We need to stop dancing around this, too. This happens because the Police have no fear. They have no fear because of the strength of their unions....

Disagree, LEO unions exist in every other country in the world. Every city. Perhaps its the culture? One awash in guns, where low wages mixes with little training. Where racism, drugs, high incarceration rates add fuel to the equation. Where law and order is sold to a group. Where guns for "self protection" is sold as the answer. Where political parties are "soft on crime" when they suggest alternatives to incarceration.

At least with this news cycle. The last mass shooting is off the front page.

Edited by Phil1111

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25 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Disagree. Rodney King beating, after shooting, after beating. No change is anywhere on the horizon.

Agree. About as far as gun control in the US.

Disagree, LEO unions exist in every other country in the world. Every city. Perhaps its the culture? One awash in guns, where low wages mixes with little training. Where racism, drugs, high incarceration rates add fuel to the equation. Where law and order is sold to a group. Where guns for "self protection" is sold as the answer. Where political parties are "soft on crime" when they suggest alternatives to incarceration.

At least with this news cycle. The last mass shooting is off the front page.

I said "in America". Same place where common sense gun laws, obedience to science, and a belief that women have agency isn't working. 

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15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I said "in America". Same place where common sense gun laws, obedience to science, and a belief that women have agency isn't working. 

Sorry Joe. My mistake pooping on your thread. I apologize. I forgot that the co-governing party just appointed George Santos to the science committee. MTG's appointments to covid,oversight and Homeland Security committees.

I'm positive with these powerful intellects at work. Gun violence and LEO's misconduct will be speedily addressed. At least if they don't go broke first.

Police Brutality Bonds

"You’re probably familiar with municipal bonds issued for infrastructure. These often tax-free vehicles are part of most people’s investment portfolios. Now there are police brutality bonds – although that’s not their official names.

Huge banks such as Wells Fargo and Bank of America profit from these bonds, along with smaller financial institutions. That’s because cities have become so crippled by the amount of money they must pay in settlements that they are forced to issue these bonds.

According to the Action Center on Race & the Economy (“ACRE”), these police brutality bonds can double the cost of a settlement. The group examined five cities – Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, and Lake County, Indiana – and estimated that these five cities bonded $837.8 million between 2008 and 2017, but paid a whopping $1.03 billion in interest during that time period! That ends up costing taxpayers $1.87 billion for taxpayers."

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2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

The group examined five cities – Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, and Lake County, Indiana – and estimated that these five cities bonded $837.8 million between 2008 and 2017, but paid a whopping $1.03 billion in interest during that time period! 

Either fortunately or unfortunately, that is going to be a bigger factor than any other in stemming the rise in police brutality.  Because the only argument stronger than "be tough on crime" for republicans is "don't raise my taxes."

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16 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

They have no fear because of the strength of their unions. 

Hi Joe,

This is the problem.  

Take away their unions & they will be of a different mind set.

IMO no city, county, state should recognize any public employee's union. *

'You want to work here, here are the terms of your employment.'

Take it or leave it.

Jerry Baumchen

* Remember, in 1981, when the Air Traffic Controllers union thought they could make Reagan to bow to them?

 

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3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

This is the problem.  

Take away their unions & they will be of a different mind set.

IMO no city, county, state should recognize any public employee's union. *

'You want to work here, here are the terms of your employment.'

Take it or leave it.

Jerry Baumchen

* Remember, in 1981, when the Air Traffic Controllers union thought they could make Reagan to bow to them?

 

Police and fire departments are already having a difficult time recruiting.

 

unions aren’t the issue.

 

Signed,

30 year member of the International Association if Firefighters.

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7 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Disagree, LEO unions exist in every other country in the world. Every city. Perhaps its the culture? One awash in guns, where low wages mixes with little training. Where racism, drugs, high incarceration rates add fuel to the equation. Where law and order is sold to a group. Where guns for "self protection" is sold as the answer. Where political parties are "soft on crime" when they suggest alternatives to incarceration.

I don't know about all places, but police unions are a problem in Canada. Get rid of police unions and restrict qualified immunity.

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5 minutes ago, grimmie said:

Police and fire departments are already having a difficult time recruiting.

 

unions aren’t the issue.

 

Signed,

30 year member of the International Association if Firefighters.

Hi Rich,

The Portland Fire Bureau has never had a problem in getting recruits.  Far more apply than are accepted.  It is the same for my local fire dep't.

Unions are the issue according to Joe Weber & I.

Jerry Baumchen

5-month member of the Portland Fire Bureau - 900+ people took the test & I came out #1 - I hated that job

 

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9 minutes ago, grimmie said:

Police and fire departments are already having a difficult time recruiting.

 

unions aren’t the issue.

 

Signed,

30 year member of the International Association if Firefighters.

Not here in most parts of Canada. Only way in is generally through family members and by far still completely dominated by white men.

It is a part-time job with full time pay and many, many firefighters run separate companies while on the job. It is a very sought after job and highly protected.

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OK I have to admit I was wrong on the issue of police unions in the US. I keep thinking that the US is similar to other G-7 countries.

The Trouble with Police Unions " labor contracts allow — or even require — the expungement of officers' records of past disciplinary actions or accusations of misconduct. Until this spring, New York state shielded officers' records from the public through a provision in state law. In Cleveland, the collective-bargaining agreement required that disciplinary records be deleted every two years. Baltimore's most recent collective-bargaining agreement states that an accused officer "may request expungement of such matter from any file containing the record of the formal complaint" three years after a complaint is "not sustained" or the officer is exonerated. In Seattle, the contract allows the city to retain files of investigations that result in a "sustained" finding of misconduct for the duration of the officer's employment. Files of investigations that are "not sustained" can only be retained for three years."

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20 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

OK I have to admit I was wrong on the issue of police unions in the US. I keep thinking that the US is similar to other G-7 countries.

The Trouble with Police Unions " labor contracts allow — or even require — the expungement of officers' records of past disciplinary actions or accusations of misconduct. Until this spring, New York state shielded officers' records from the public through a provision in state law. In Cleveland, the collective-bargaining agreement required that disciplinary records be deleted every two years. Baltimore's most recent collective-bargaining agreement states that an accused officer "may request expungement of such matter from any file containing the record of the formal complaint" three years after a complaint is "not sustained" or the officer is exonerated. In Seattle, the contract allows the city to retain files of investigations that result in a "sustained" finding of misconduct for the duration of the officer's employment. Files of investigations that are "not sustained" can only be retained for three years."

Hi Phil,

As Pogo said, 'I have seen the enemy and it are us.'

Jerry Baumchen

 

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11 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Disagree. Rodney King beating, after shooting, after beating. No change is anywhere on the horizon.

Well, the five cops got fired. 

There was bodycam footage. 
It's been released.

The cops are all facing a variety of charges, including murder.

Compare & contrast that with the Laquan McDonald shooting in Chicago.

It took forever for the cops to release the footage, and required a judge's order (that was blatantly ignored for a while).
The telling part was that the murderous cop was indicted immediately before the footage was released.
The whole department knew it had been murder. 

And they tried as hard as they could to cover it up. 

There's a lot of difference between the two cases.

Change is happening slowly, but there are improvements.

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21 hours ago, Faicon9493 said:

This is the problem those bodycams were supposed were supposed to fix. I still remember the Georgia policeman who, in 2016, recorded himself saying to a white female driver, "Don't be afraid. We only kill black people." I have a grandson who will be learning to drive in a few months. You can bet that between me and his dad, he's going to get some vital information that won't be covered in his drivers education class.

Absolutely right. Body Cams were supposed to be the solution, instead they have become entertainment for asshole cops who know they can get a pass from their unions. This shit will never stop until our police can be fired that day for recorded on camera offenses. No paid leave, no early retirement, no none of the bullshit that exists now. That all means that they can then be charged. Our Police do not need to be defunded, they need to be defanged.

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58 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There's a lot of difference between the two cases.

Change is happening slowly, but there are improvements.

Agreed.  I think that's happening in the public arena as well; I still haven't heard the "Nichols was no choir boy!" talking point that we used to see so regularly.

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1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Compare & contrast that with the Laquan McDonald shooting in Chicago.

Oct 2014 - Laquan McDonald killed.
Nov 2015 - Video released, Officer Van Dyke charged.

Compare that to Aurora CO:
Aug 2019 - Elijah McClain killed.
Jun 2020 - Video released, one officer resigned and three were fired.
Sep 2021 - Three police officers and two paramedics arrested and charged.

Memphis PD accomplished in less than three weeks what took Aurora PD two years!

 

 

 

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According to the WP there were 1110 civilians killed by police in the US over the last 12 months.Graph of killings by ethnicity.

Perhaps the answer is that police unions are required to carry insurance for misconduct by their members. With a flat subsidy to cover that cost and independent oversight of complaints of course.

Police unions and police violence — and what to do about it "Limits on when police can use force is a better solution than banning police unions" a WP article

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Kind of like teachers -- we want to pay the least for the minimum "meets requirements." And it shows. Freedom isn't free, neither are good service workers -- and teachers, fire fighters, and police really ought to be good. And they're all public servants.

Wendy P.

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