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Deimian

Student mistakes

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Deimian



I guess it was one of the back risers. The canopy kept inflated that way, with the front side correctly set up, and the backside pressurized enough to keep the canopy shape (and hold "in place" by the brakes).



devin2477

Yes it was the back riser.



Got it, I can "visualize it" now, thank you for the extra explanation.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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I recall being on a load with a static line student only very shortly after I qualified. I think they were on a short delay. Instructor dispatched them, good canopy seen then a cutaway.

On the ground I asked out of interest what the problem had been. Apparently their legstraps weren't done up as tight as usual so on opening the rig lifted up their back, pushing the back of the helmet up so that the brim of the helmet came down over their eyes.

The now blind student went through their post opening drills, couldn't see if the canopy was big and square so as per the drill, went straight to their handles. Their comment to me was "I thought everything seemed fine but I couldn't tell for sure so, to be on the safe side...".

Err... you might want to chat that one through with your instructor...

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devin2477

Yea, Ive heard that a few times also. That seems to be the culture these days with new students. "I wasnt sure, so i chopped it". I dont know if i agree with this logic or not.



I don't know how it works in other countries, but in Finland the official syllabus teach to students that if they can't determine if they have a flying canopy, then they don't have one and they need to perform their emergency procedures.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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It seems like they rush decisions though before even thinking. 99% of the time, if they performed their control checks, it would eliminate the " i wasnt sure" part. Instead they look up and see a slider down or the wrong colored parachute and immediately think "oh this might not be right" and chop it. When instead, if they did their control checks, they would know its a good parachute.

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Being a newbie myself (I would like to weigh in) I feel as though instructors are sometimes are too quick to say, 'oh well, you understand me right'. My very first jump was in 2008 (tandem, yuk!) but I think would be best if it was included in the AFF course -not sticking to naming conventions - for safety reasons. The posts that some of you mentioned 'the student got scared/panicked' should not be happening. If there was a pre-jump to AFF (meaning tandem) I think that could solve at least one of these issues. Since there are so many, I do not think these are issues that should be swept under the rug, but addressed, FAST! I mean, the question 'How can we as instructors get/be better?' should be the ending question of every DZ meeting (if these are actually happening b4 and after airport operations can begin for the day.

Some of the examples about the un-necessary cutaway I think In my mind is something that is shared 50/50 between the student and instructor. The safety information in the AFF ground course should be a topic that each student should be able to explain back to the instructor. If not then instructors need to go over it again.

Now I am not here to badger but I feel like we (skydivers) cannot pick all the smart folk to jump out of a plane, nor can instructors pick their children (AFF students) so then it should be in your best interest to get better at teaching at all cost.

I also wanted to go on the record and say that I have never had any of these situations, I was the student that read every section of the book, got minimal answers wrong on the quizzes, and studied for the 'final' verbal exam, that I killed which was in front of the entire DZ. My instructors were lucky, yet I feel lucky because I learned at a place where Safety is almost too high, lol..

Life finds its purpose and fulfillment in the expansion of happiness

--- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

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You are a bit too fast on the trigger. This is a general skydiving discussion forum.

The first thing I have in mind is what kind of instruction those two reported cases had. Not all instructors are able to "think" at a beginner level. It is the duty of an instructor to enhance the few most important details just before the jump. One has to provide the beginner with the elementary tools for his/her survival. At the instruction you should have an open rig, that you can put on the student, hold the risers up and ask him to undo the brakes and mock up the turns. Common sense and basic skills !
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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devin2477

Yea, Ive heard that a few times also. That seems to be the culture these days with new students. "I wasnt sure, so i chopped it". I dont know if i agree with this logic or not.



We basically got "If you're not sure, chop it." The instructor went on to say that one or two line twists might not normally be considered a choppable malfunction, but on our first jump they'd rather we err on the side of caution. If we felt we could deal with it kicking it out above decision altitude, fine, if we didn't, just cut away.

He did go on to tell a couple of the "Chopped because the slider wouldn't go back up" stories, though. We're pretty hip, and knew we'd be the subject of such stories, if we did that. I don't see too many AFF level 1 chops here. I think I've heard of one or two in the last couple of years.
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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To be fair, given the number of experienced skydivers going in under a malfunctioning main over the last few years, it might not be a bad thing if more jumpers had that culture....:(

devin2477

Yea, Ive heard that a few times also. That seems to be the culture these days with new students. "I wasnt sure, so i chopped it". I dont know if i agree with this logic or not.

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It never ceases to amaze me the amount of students that turn up after devouring every clip on youtube about BASE jumping and malfunctions. They have assumed knowledge, now thanks to the endless clips on the internet. I had one student start talking about advanced canopy skills in the canopy handling lesson, when i asked him how he knew this stuff it was youtube.

You can tell the ones that are not going to be easy by the look in their eyes, especially when their eyes are bigger than saucers behind the goggles; You know its not going to be an easy jump!

I know a very experienced instructor who after finishing his adv packers course hooked his canopy on backwards. He said he knew something was wrong when he flew backwards on opening, flew it for a while and then chopped it and landed safely on his freshly packed reserve.
At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!!

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Yeah, if you want to make the D licenses start twitching, start a psycho pack and announce loudly that you got this because you watched a youtube video.

I'm guessing some of them are twitching right now...
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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I used to do that every time I needed help packing. It worked all the times.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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newbie with 1 tandem trying to understand everything....

"--A kid with about 25 jumps cutaway his main and used his reserve on the used rig he just purchased because "it's mine and I want to try everything out" "

isn't that a good idea, though? to get a better feel for the equipment? or if he wanted to do that, should he have got permission first? was this "just" a protocol violation or something more serious?

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ElectricFetus

very interested newbie, with one tandem, has to ask [with no snark]:

what was wrong? granted it wasn't too bright of the dad to try and teach a disinterested subject, but what else was at play there that was 'jaw dropping'?



He died. Fired his reserve into a malfunctioned main and went in with a mess.

In other words he pulled the wrong handle. If you go on to jump solo practice your ep's relentlessly. Riding to altitude you can pretend over and over. In the loading area...In the hanging harness.. You don't think about what handle it is no more than you have to think about what pedal to use when you want to stop your car. Or what lever is the clutch on a motorcycle. But you use those all the time so you need to simulate make it second nature. So when SHTF you have already done the EP hundreds of times in your head with simulation.
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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ElectricFetus

newbie with 1 tandem trying to understand everything....

"--A kid with about 25 jumps cutaway his main and used his reserve on the used rig he just purchased because "it's mine and I want to try everything out" "

isn't that a good idea, though? to get a better feel for the equipment? or if he wanted to do that, should he have got permission first? was this "just" a protocol violation or something more serious?



In the Netherlands, aspiring instructors must have at least one reserve, be it pre-planned or a 'real one'. If they do a pre-planned reserve, they are
a) experienced jumpers
b) well prepared
c) bringing a secondary reserve canopy with them, just in case they screw up.

From the post you quoted it looks like the student knowingly cutaway a perfectly good canopy, just for shits and giggles. That is not a good idea since it adds unnecessary risk to the jump. Your reserve is meant to save your life, it's not a toy (unlike your main canopy). Less importantly, the person stands the chance of losing their main canopy and some other pieces of equipment when they float down to the ground after the cutaway. Lastly, it'll cost you quite some money to have it repacked by a specially trained and certified individual, called a rigger.

A better option would have been to contact a gear dealer or the manufacturer of the reserve canopy and see if the jumper could demo a similar reserve canopy.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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